PRESIDENT WILSON pointed out that there was a side of the question to which Mr. Lloyd George had not referred. If it were merely a question of returning the cables to Germany or not, the solution would be comparatively easy, as this could only be answered in the negative. But the Council was asked to decide whether these cables should remain exclusively in the hands of those who had taken them over, though all parties had taken part in the war. Should a decision to that effect be taken, that might prejudge any ulterior arrangements, whereas, in his opinion, the Treaty of Peace ought to leave the question open.

MR. LLOYD GEORGE enquired whether President Wilson could make some definite proposal.

PRESIDENT WILSON suggested that the Peace Terms should require the cables in question to be transferred to the Allied and Associated Powers as Trustees; who would be authorised to determine the future working of the cables in the interests of the Powers concerned.

MR. LLOYD GEORGE enquired whether the Trustees would have the power of diverting the cables to other places.

PRESIDENT WILSON expressed the view that the Trustees would only be empowered to do this as a result of a unanimous decision, on the grounds that such a diversion would be in the interest of the whole of the Powers concerned.

SIR ROBERT BORDEN explained that the Canadian Government had intended to make the cable in question State property to be linked up with the land telegraphic system, which already belonged to the Government. In this way, it was thought measures could be taken to reduce rates.

PRESIDENT WILSON thought that the question raised by Sir Robert Borden was not in contradiction with his own proposals, and should be considered when the question of drafting the international convention relating to cables was undertaken.

MR. LLOYD GEORGE pointed out that President Wilson's proposal would apply to all cables, and consequently would also affect the French and Japanese Governments.

BARON MAKINO said he wished to state Japan's position in the matter. At the last meeting on this subject, Mr. Balfour had proposed a resolution which had been accepted after long discussion. He had not then had time to catch the real purport of the resolution. Accordingly, he had wished to obtain some explanation, but he was told that after the text came back from the Drafting Committee, he would have an opportunity of discussing the question further. At the present moment, he was prepared to accept the policy contained in the resolution proposed by Mr. Balfour on 24th March last.

In regard to the appropriation of the cables in question, he would invite attention to the policy that had been pursued, vis-à-vis, Germany, as expressed in the Peace Treaty. It would be found that a

certain number of questions had been settled not strictly in accordance with the recognised usages of international law. For instance, in regard to the taking over of private property. Again, Article 13 of the Financial Clauses authorised the taking over of undertakings of public utility. That is to say, the Allied and Associated Governments had, in his opinion, gone very far in taking over German rights and much further than had ever been done heretofore. In his opinion, the same procedure could therefore well be followed in regard to cables. The Cable Company taken over by the Japanese Government had a capital of 15 million marks at its disposal and in addition received from the German Government an annual subsidy of 11⁄2 million marks. These facts clearly proved that the undertaking had not been a commercial one; but part and parcel of the German political system. For this reason, taking into consideration also the general policy introduced elsewhere in the Treaty to which he had just alluded, it was not unreasonable that this cable should be taken over by Japan. That clearly was the Japanese point of view, and after very careful consideration he had been led to the conclusion that the best policy would be to adopt Mr. Balfour's original resolution.

Next, in regard to the International Convention relating to the future management of cables, his personal opinion was that such an arrangement would be desirable. Such a Convention could be drawn up on the same lines as the International Postal Convention, subject to International agreement. But for the moment he was only willing to accept the proposals contained in Mr. Balfour's resolution adopted on March 24th last.

MR. LLOYD GEORGE said that President Wilson had put forward a new proposal. So far, he had only been able to have a short consultation with Mr. Balfour, who agreed with him that their experts should be consulted before reaching a definite conclusion. He would therefore ask the Council to adjourn the further discussion of the question, in order to give time for proper consideration of the new proposal. He felt very hopeful that an agreement would be reached; but he would like to consult his experts. In his opinion, it would be a mistake to discuss the proposal until it had received further consideration.

PRESIDENT WILSON explained that he had put forward his proposal for two reasons. Firstly, because he thought it was right and, secondly, because he thought it afforded a solution in the general interest, which would have the effect of creating a solidarity amongst the Allied Powers.

MR. LLOYD GEORGE agreed provided financial solidarity alone was not intended.

SIR ROBERT BORDEN was particularly anxious to avoid private companies acquiring too large a monopoly. For instance, he was anxious

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to approach the American Government with a view to reducing cable rates and ship rates.

PRESIDENT WILSON expressed his complete agreement with Sir Robert Borden's purpose. The common trusteeship he had proposed was intended to bring about these very objects. He thought that one reason why the German cable referred to by Baron Makino had not paid was because it constituted merely an independent piece, which did not enter into the general system. With the permission of the Council, he would formulate a definite draft resolution for discussion at the next meeting of the Council.

MR. LANSING thought that the draft resolution might very well be drawn up on the lines of the Article dealing with the surrender of German Colonies.

(It was agreed that President Wilson should formulate a draft resolution for discussion at the next meeting of the Council of Ten to the effect that all German Cables seized during the war should be transferred to the Allied and Associated Powers as trustees, who would determine the future working of the cables in the interests of the Powers concerned).

The meeting then adjourned.

PARIS, 1 May, 1919.

Paris Peace Conf. 180.03101/67

BC-60

Secretary's Notes of a Conversation Held in M. Pichon's Room at the Quai d'Orsay, Paris, on Friday, May 2nd, 1919, at 5 p. m.

1. M. CLEMENCEAU said that the Japanese Representatives had not yet been able to reach the Meeting. He thought, however, that a preliminary discussion might be held in regard to the draft resolution, which had been prepared by President Wilson, and which read as follows:

Disposal of
German Sub-

marine Cables

"It is agreed:

(1) That an article shall be inserted in the Treaty of Peace whereby Germany shall on her own behalf and on the behalf of German nationals renounce in favour of the Allied and Associated Powers jointly all rights, titles and privileges of whatsoever nature possessed by her or her nationals in the submarine cables or portion thereof mentioned below:

Emden-Vigo: from the Straits of Dover to off Vigo.
Emden-Brest: from off Cherbourg to Brest.
Emden-Teneriffe: from off Dunkerque to off Teneriffe.
Emden-Azores (1) from the Straits of Dover to Fayal.
Emden-Azores (2) from the Straits of Dover to Fayal.

Azores-New York (1) from Fayal to New York.

Azores-New York (2) from Fayal to the longitude of Halifax.
Teneriffe-Monrovia: from off Teneriffe to off Monrovia.

Lome-Duala: from Lome to Duala.

Monrovia-Pernambuco: from off Monrovia to off Pernambuco.
Constantinople-Constanza: from Constantinople to Constanza.
Chefoo-Tsingtao-Shanghai: from Tsingtao to Chefoo, and from
Tsingtao to Shanghai.

Yap-Shanghai, Yap-Guam, and Yap-Menado (Celebes): from
Yap Island to Shanghai, from Yap Island to Guam Island,
and from Yap Island to Menado.

(2) That the Five Allied and Associated Powers shall jointly hold these cables together with any rights or privileges pertaining thereto for common agreement as to the best system of administration and control; and

(3) That the Five Allied and Associated Powers shall call as soon as possible an International Congress to consider and report on all international aspects of telegraph, cable and radio communication, with a view to providing the entire world with adequate communication facilities on a fair, equitable basis."

MR. LLOYD GEORGE thought it would be unwise to take any decision on this question in the absence of the Japanese Representatives.

PRESIDENT WILSON expressed the view that a preliminary discussion could be held in regard to the Atlantic cables.

(At this stage MM. Yamakawa and Saburi, and Vice-Admiral Takeshita entered the Council Chamber.)

MR. BALFOUR said that since the last meeting he had been able to make careful enquiries in regard to the actual position of the Atlantic cables. This aspect of the case, he thought, was very important as being relevant to the final decision, and it would throw light on what had actually happened. He felt bound to confess that he had only on that day been able to discover the actual position of affairs and, he thought, Mr. Lansing's previous information must have been equally imperfect, since he (Mr. Lansing) had told the Council at a previous meeting that Great Britain had control of too many cable lines. Now, the fact of the case was that Great Britain had control of no cable lines, with the exception of the one recently captured from Germany. This statement had greatly surprised him and it had led him to make further enquiries in order to obtain an explanation. It appeared that there existed 13 cable lines between the United Kingdom and America. Seven of these