thereof as are required of children of like age at public schools; and no greater total amount of holidays or vacations shall be deducted from such attendance during the period such attendance is required than is allowed in such public school to children of like age. Occasional absences from such attendance, not amounting to irregular attendance in the fair meaning of the term, shall be allowed upon such excuses only as would be allowed in like case by the general rules and practice of such public school". The Fresident The gentleman's time has expired.

Mr. Leggett Mr. President.

The President Mr. Leggett.

Mr. Leggett I recall that when this matter was before the Convention on the 29th day of July, I made this remark: "I do not know that I need to be ashamed to confess that my hold on the exact meaning of the intent and effect of the language employed in this proposal is rather slippery." I recall that my distinguished friend, Judge Clearwater, followed me, and, referring to my remarks, said this: "Regarding his rather uncomplimentary characterization of this amendment as 'slippery,' it would seem to me that it is the reverse of slippery.' I challenge the gentleman to phrase this idea expressed in this amendment in a more forceful, more illuminative, more expressive phraseology."

I submit, gentlemen, that my characterization of this language is as slip. pery " has found in a number of adherents, that people have become somewhat uncertain as to what it really did mean, and as to what its real effect was. We find later on that delegates here interested in private and parochial schools were afraid of the language. They did not know to what it might lead, and under their impulses it was changed, and this change, I am frank to say, has brought fears from other quarters. Now, it is violating no secret to say that people outside of this Convention who are not interested in private and parochial schools are afraid of the language of this amendment as it now stands.

I also said on that day, words which I believe are just as true to-day: "It seems to me that it is plain that it does one of two things, that it does not change the power of the Legislature or that it does. Now, if it does not, it is nugatory. It does no good. The Legislature's control now is satisfactory. If it does change it, then in what respect does it change it?"

To that there can be but one general answer. It cannot give the Legislature any more power than it has. That power has been decided to be plenary, and the universal testimony is that the development of the power now existing in the Legislature has brought the State of New York to the very highest rank amongst the States of the Union. It can then have but one effect. It must restrict the power of the Legislature, and to that I am distinctly opposed, and I believe that the passage of this amendment at its best can do no good, and at its worst it is leading us to evils which we only dimly apprehend, and which no man can measure. I think the people outside of this Convention, as well as the delegates in it, are justly afraid of the effect of this amendment; and 'the wise thing for us to do is to turn it down. The President The Chair recognizes Mr. Clearwater.

Mr. Clearwater - Mr. President, if ideas did not change and the world did not advance, there would be 'no necessity for this amendment. But, as I have had occasion to say before from the floor of this Convention, it is

not only the duty of the Convention 'to remedy existing evils but to forefend against evils which may come.

This amendment crystallizes in the Constitution precisely what the Court of 'Appeals has decided is the function of the State. That is a judicial decision, subject to change by legislative enactment, but it cannot be attacked if written in the organic law. Education of the children of this State is a State function to-day. To-morrow the Legislature may decide that it is not a function of the State. One of the objects of this amendment is to make it a State function forever, or so long as this Constitution exists.

Now, sir, this amendment was framed after the most unusual and remarkable consultation held in this building during the life of this Convention. After the convention had listened to the eloquent characterization of the report of the Committee on Education by the gentleman who preceded me, the Committee invited the attendance of gentlemen representing every variety of faith present on the floor of this Convention, every phase of thought interested in problems of education. After a thorough discussion, where all the divergent views were candidly expressed, where all the haunting fears which had been suggested were fully developed and considered, every one of those gentlemen, representing all shades of belief, all shades of thought upon the subject of education, agreed upon this amendment as it is framed and presented here.

Now, sir, there are no phantoms here. All the suggested fears are chimerical. I will not say that they are summoned from the vasty deep to assist simply in defeating this amendment, but they are destitute of any solid foundation. The children of to-day, sir, are the potential State of to-morrow, and it behooves a great commonwealth to write into its organic law exactly the provision we have here. "The state shall continue its supervision and control of the education of children in its free common schools." Does anybody want to lessen that? I think not. "And shall exercise such supervision and control elsewhere than in such schools as it now possesses." What is that control? Simply to prescribe a minimum standard of education which shall conform to the most modern conception of the treatment of education.

The Chairman - The Chair recognizes Mr. Mandeville.

Mr. Mandeville-As a member of this Committee, I approached this subject with all the fear that has been expressed upon this floor. And yet I know, and we all know, that it is a very delicate subject and it would be best to let it entirely alone unless there is some good purpose to be served by this amendment. The expressions of Mr. Cobb, of Mr. O'Brian of Buffalo and others, I am sure have occurred to every man here and will occur to him, and must be answered before he votes.

The reason for this amendment is not to disturb anything; on the contrary, it is to leave everything as it is. It was brought up and is now brought up because of the anxiety of the department and the anxiety of others that the conflict which is growing and growing in volume between the municipalities and the State might be settled, the municipalities asserting the right to control education and the State asserting a like right. The courts have decided that the State has that right and if we could be sure that that condition would prevail during the life of this Constitution

we would say nothing. But the decisions are based upon statutes which may be changed. Therefore, for the purpose of cementing and securing into the structure of the State the right to control its schools, the Committee proposed this plan. The plan says that the State shall continue, as against the municipalities, as against any civil division of the State that the State shall have the right to control education.

As to its own schools, paid for by itself, surely the State has the complete right and no one doubts it. As to other schools outside of that definition, the State retains the right, and always should retain the right, to see to it that the education in those schools is sufficient to qualify the children for a citizenship. In order to give the State absolute right as against the municipalities, as against the city of New York, as against all other cities where local authorities seek to control educational functions, we offer this amendment. I recognize that it is delicate ground which we are treading upon; that the less that is said, the better it is. I see no fear and no danger in the amendment as proposed. The State shall continue the control of its own schools, and there shall be no derogation of that control, and in all other schools it shall retain at least the control which it now has. That is satisfactory. It accomplishes the good purpose of securing State control without interfering with the control of the municipalities.

Mr. J. L. O'Brian - Will Mr. Mandeville yield for a question?

Mr. Mandeville - Yes.

Mr. J. L. O'Brian - The point that disturbed me, and I want to get your opinion on it, is this: the present Constitution says nothing about control or supervision of schools, of private schools. That being the case, do you not think that you are putting in the new Constitution, as you propose, a clause that the State shall continue to exercise its present control; that you, in fact, impose a constitutional limitation for the future upon that extended control, because, whereas the present Constitution has no such limitation, you provide that, as to the future, the State shall exercise, inferentially, the present control?

Mr. Mandeville - Mr. Chairman, I quite recognize the point and yet I cannot see the force of it. It is my opinion that as that control is now by statute only, it is better to cement that statute, that we shall have at least that minimum control at all times.

Mr. Stanchfield Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman - Mr. Stanchfield.

Mr. Stanchfield - It is perfectly apparent from the debate that has taken place around this circle that there is a wide divergence of opinion among lawyers and there are many distinguished lawyers in this body-as to what is the effect of this Proposed Amendment. If Judge Clearwater be right and, that he is right upon the contention, I am prepared to concede that the court of last resort in this State has held under the existing provision of the Constitution that there is now vested in the State all required powers to look after the education of the children of the State, I move, in concluding this debate, Mr. President, to recommit this amendment to the Committee of the Whole and end the debate with that motion. Mr. President, I move that at the present time we terminate debate upon this interminable subject and recommit the provision to the Committee of the Whole.

The President-All in favor of that motion will say Aye, contrary No. The Chair is in doubt. All in favor of recommitting will rise, and remain standing until counted. The Secretary will count. The gentlemen will be seated. All opposed, will rise. The gentlemen will be seated. The Secretary will announce the result.

The President - - The Noes have it and the motion to recommit is agreed to.

The Secretary will call the next number.

The Secretary-Number 835, third reading No. 6, by the Committee on Legislative Organization. To amend Section 6 of Article III of the Constitution, in relation to the compensation and expenses of members of the Legislature.

The President - The bill is now open to debate under the rules.

Mr. Deyo I move to recommit to the Committee of the Whole with instructions to amend by striking out the words “ five hundred " in line 4 and to report immediately, and on that I ask for a division.

Delegates Question, question.

The President - The question is upon the motion to recommit with instructions to strike out "twenty-five hundred," is it?

Mr. Deyo The motion is to strike out the words, "five hundred ", leaving it two thousand.

The President - All in favor of the motion will rise and remain standing until counted. The gentlemen will be seated. All opposed to the motion will rise. The gentlemen will please be seated.

The Secretary will announce the result.

The Secretary- Ayes 56, Noes 82.

The President

The motion to recommit is not agreed to. Any further debate upon the bill.

Delegates - Question, question.

The President

roll.

There being no further debate, the Secretary will call the