The amendment proposed by the County Government Committee retains the language which now exists in Section two of Article ten of the Constitution which says that "All city, town and village officers whose election or appointment is not provided for by this Constitution, shall be elected by the electors of such cities, towns and villages or of some division thereof or appointed by such authorities thereof as the legislature shall designate for such purpose."

Now in the amendment reported by the Committee they have added a clause for the purpose of avoiding an inconsistency with Sections 26 and 27 of Article III of the Constitution which they propose to amend. The words which I propose to substitute for the language which I propose to strike out not only avoids the inconsistency with the Cities Article but also avoids the inconsistency with the amendment to the two sections of Article III, which the Committee has proposed. The language which I propose is "shall be provided by law".

The law of course includes other provisions of the Constitution, statutory provisions and provisions of law which may be enacted by cities pursuant to the provisions of Section 3 of the new Cities Article. I think that the Committee is willing to accept the amendment which I have proposed.

Mr. Low — The Committee has no objection to that amendment.

Mr. F. L. Young - Mr. Chairman, I have no doubt that some of the provisions of this bill are rather shocking to those of the delegates who are given to conservative thinking. I have no doubt of that. My conservatism is just as strong as that of Delegate Kirby or any other delegate, and I admit that when this proposition was first submitted to the Committee of County, Town and Village Government I felt that it was too much of a departure from established custom, but I remained with the Committee long enough to become convinced by argument and not by feeling that the Committee was working in the right line and for that reason I am going to support this bill from beginning to end, with the amendments, some of them, that have been proposed.

Now, gentlemen, it is no argument in favor of a bill

(Gavel.)

-I will try to continue if you give me a chance - It is no argument in favor of a bill to say that the Committee have been considering this matter faithfully for a long time and has agreed upon a report. I say it is not a conclusive argument, and yet it is an argument that has been advanced on this floor from the very beginning of the filing of the Committee's reports. But that fact ought, however, to cause the delegates of this Convention to be a bit reluctant about offering motions for amendment on the spur of the moment. I doubt very much whether any delegate to this Convention can on the spur of the moment, from a very causal examination of the Proposed Amendment make a really sound and valid proposition of amendment, I doubt that very much. The Committee has considered this bill and has tried to adapt the bill to the circumstances as they were shown to the Committee. Whether they have failed or not rests upon the judgment of the Committee. Now, I have no fear of lines 5, 6 and 7 of this Proposed Amendment on page 2. I have not the slightest fear of it, and I will tell you why. At first these lines seemed to me to be setting up something in opposition to the Legislature, which my political reading has taught me to be not wholly acceptable, but

I have dismissed it, and I have dismissed it entirely for this reason: If there is any real need of reform, of amendment, if a situation is bad enough, with a new Board of Supervisors every two years, the people have an opportunity to get square with the supervisors who refuse to obey their voice. Now, what is the reason why these lines are in this amendment? The reason that was stated by Mr. Martin and some of the other delegates. I know from my experience in the Legislature that frequently it has happened that laws have been sent down for the counties which were really not desired by the counties. Indeed, I confess that at some of the hearings on these special bills as they came up before the Committee, arguments have been made, but no heed was paid to anything that was said about the bill except by the member or representative, whichever he might be, who represented that district and so these bills have been sent down to the county with that sanction. That is just the situation we are trying to meet and I think we have met it by lines 5, 6 and 7.

It has already been pointed out that there is no real difference between city and county government except the extent of territory. It is one body and needs one law. If we are not going to give this relief to the counties which they ask for we will have reduplication of what Mr. Barrett said, and I remember distinctly many times Mr. Brackett in the Senate saying "here is another bill from Westchester" or some friendly remark about it, he was always friendly about it, because we never asked anything unreasonable. (Laughter.) We want to stop this special legislation. There must be invested in the county the power to take care of itself without coming here and that is what the committee is trying to do. I believe it has succeeded and I believe the bill has real merit and that it would be tried. The counties that do not want to change their government ought not to be unduly apprehensive over this bill. There is no intention here to change them. There is no intention to interfere with the boards of supervisors of counties which are perfectly satisfied, but only among the counties which are not satisfied where the government has not been what the county really wanted. Here is opportunity for relief and that is all we ask you to do.

At one time in my life I was pretty well wedded to the idea that a law good enough for one county was good enough for any county of the State and that there was no need for a different government for Westchester county or for Herkimer county, for Clinton, or any other county, but I have abandoned that idea; I have wholly surrendered it, and I am advancing to the thought that the less number of municipalities that we have the greater benefit it will come to the people. My thought is not embodied in this bill; but, for instance, I have for a long time felt that matters of education in a county may better be committed to a county board of education; that matters of health in the county could better be committed to the county board of health, and so on down the line. This bill does not contemplate it. I merely speak of that as an illustration of a tendency into which my experience leads me.

Now, I have no fear of the next action.

The question for us to decide as to the first section is this: In the next 20 years isn't it possible that some county or some counties may have a situation where the government of the county would better be administered by a different form of government than the board of supervisors. If you

believe that is so, then it seems to me that there can be but one answer to it, and your support will be given to this bill and every delegate will understand that if he supports the bill nothing can be placed upon the county except by consent of the county itself. Whatever disposition is made of lines 5, 6 and 7, I care not, strike them out if you want to.

The first paragraph is a paragraph that should be approved by every delegate in this Convention. Of that I have no question.

Mr. Wagner - Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman-The time has expired for debate on this proposition. If there are any further amendments they must be presented at this time.

Mr. Wagner-I would like to give a few observations on this measure. The Chairman - The Chair is not able to grant you any such opportunity, inasmuch as the time has expired. The Committee will have to rise.

Mr. Wagner- Are we going to be tied down to seconds in a matter as important as this? and that in Committee of the Whole? This should be discussed a little more fully. I have had very little to say. I would like to state some experience I have had as a legislator on this special provision for counties. If I am to be shut off, I will sit down.

The Chairman - The Chair would like to extend the time, but it is not within his jurisdiction to do so.

Mr. J. L. O'Brian

- Mr. Chairman, there is certainly no desire on the part of those interested in this measure to curtail debate. I do not know whether there are any members desiring to be heard on the next section or not. Mr. R. B. Smith- Mr. Chairman, I certainly wish to be heard.

Mr. J. L. O'Brian — Mr. Chairman, I move that the Committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again on this measure, the vote to be taken at four-thirty, all future speeches to be five-minute speeches.

Mr. Wickersham - Mr. Chairman, may I call to the attention of the gentleman and of the Committee to the fact that this is Wednesday. We have a very full schedule, which the Rules Committee has brought in, and the House has adopted a rule as to the remaining important measures, limiting the time of debate, and unless we adhere to those limits we certainly won't get through. I say that not with reference to any particular exigency here but to impress that upon the Committee.

Mr. J. L. O'Brian Mr. Chairman, inasmuch as this is the first time the situation has presented itself, and one section of this bill has not been discussed, I think we run no risk in asking twenty minutes in which to consider the remainder of the bill. I therefore renew my motion.

The Chairman - Mr. O'Brian moves that the Committee do now rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again immediately on the consideration of this General Order No. 65; the final vote to be taken not later than fourthirty o'clock, and all speeches to be limited to five minutes. Those in favor of the motion will say Aye, opposed No. The motion is carried.

(The President resumes the Chair.)

The President- The Convention will come to order.

Mr. Hinman-Mr. President.

The President - - Mr. Hinman.

Mr. Hinman - The Committee of the Whole begs leave to rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again for immediate consideration of General Order No. 65; to consider the same so that the vote will be taken not later than four-thirty, and all speeches be limited to five minutes each.

The President- - The question is on granting leave asked by the Committee. All those in favor say Aye, contrary No. The Ayes have it and the leave is granted in accordance with the conditions specified.

The Convention will return to the Committee of the Whole for consideration of the pending Special Order. Mr. Hinman will resume the Chair.

(Mr. Hinman resumes the Chair.)

The Chairman Does Mr. Wagner desire to be recognized?

Mr. Wagner Mr. Chairman, I am not an expert on county legislation, but what Mr. Young said as to the experience of special legislation in Albany has been my experience, and I had the honor of being the leader of the Senate four years in the majority, and I know the great many demands that are made from localities, where the party in power in Albany did not have abso lute control of the local government, and thus, even with the risk of opposing the will and sentiment of the community, they had used legislative bodies to impose upon the locality legislation which that locality did not desire and opposed. In the last session I think that we had some legislation affecting the city of Utica or the county of Oneida, which was opposed by Oneida county, but the Democrats were called upon to pass it at the request of some local Democratic representatives, and I think it was eventually passed, and I think it would be well if by some legislative enactment we prohibit all that kind of local legislation except either the request comes from the locality, or it has the approval of the locality, before it is initiated. In the last session of the Legislature what happened? Rensselaer county elected a Democratic board of supervisors, and there were some Republicans there was a Republican -I am giving you this as an instance; I don't mean to accuse the Republican party, because the Democratic party has been just as offensive, but this is a practical illustration. The board of supervisors became Democratic. The county officials, who were Republican, wanted to appoint more officials for patronage's sake than the board of supervisors was willing to provide money for, contending that the places were useless and the expenditure of the money would amount to extravagance. What happened? Why, Rensselaer county came to the Legislature and asked to have three different acts, applying to three different, county officials, and in the bill-you will see it if you will look in the Session Laws of this year were enumerated the places which were to be appointed by this county official and the salary that each county official was to receive. Now, we from New York city, and from other sections of the State, fixed the places and the salaries of the placeholders for Rensselaer county, although we knew nothing about the locality, and I know it was done, according to the newspaper accounts, anyway, absolutely against the sentiment of that county.

Now there is another thing. Frequently the Legislature is asked to create places for a county where the county leaders would want the places for patronage, and yet, at some subsequent time, if the political party in power there, or the board of supervisors, are charged with extravagance they say, "Why, we are not responsible for this extravagance. This was manda tory legislation forced upon us by the Albany Legislature, and we had no alternative; we had to expend this money at the direction of the State Legislature. Now, if you have a provision such as in here, the responsibility,

in the first instance, is upon the locality, upon the governing body of the locality affected and they cannot escape the responsibility for any extravagance in their government. Now, these are changes

(Interruption by gavel.)

Mr. Wagner The gentleman from Erie is so impatient that he almost annoys me, and I know he doesn't mean it.

Mr. J. L. O'Brian - Mr. Chairman, I rise to a question of privilege. I have betrayed no impatience. I have been sitting in my seat during all this conversation.

Mr. Wagner

He has been up and down at the conclusion of every one of my sentences. I don't mean to offend if the gentleman thinks I meant to offend

Mr. J. L. O'Brian
The Chairman

- The gentleman's time has expired, and the Chair has noticed at least three other speakers who would like to take the balance of time.

Mr. Low I wish to protest against Mr. Lincoln's amendment, exempting the counties of New York city from the general rule applying to all the counties of the State. I think we should have the same protection other counties have.

Mr. Parmenter-I want to say just a few words in behalf of the rural counties to which in my judgment the proposed amendment will be quite applicable.

I have had the opportunity of fairly close observation of county commissions, as a county official, and I have become more and more impressed with the truth of the remarks of Mr. Stimson and also Mr. Barrett, to the effect that the local units, as we may so call the counties, are becoming very weak and emasculated, largely from non-use of their proper functions. The truth of the matter is I don't think it is too much to say that we are coming to the parting of the ways in the matter of county government. More and more each year the State is assuming a paternal function; more and more the county is becoming purely an administrative agency of the State. Now, I don't wish to be put on record as a home-ruler for counties. I am frank in saying my experience has taught me that the average rural County, by which I mean, perhaps, a county of an assessed valuation of $52,000,000, and containing, perhaps, a city of the third class in its confines, that the average rural county is not yet fitted for home rule or anything approaching home rule in the sense that cities are asking for it; but I do most earnestly believe that the time has come when the apathy of the people in counties or in their own government, should be changed, and that they should be taught some of the elements which go to make a strong and virile unit of the State, because, as I conceive it, the whole is as strong as its component part, and it is largely from that point of view, knowing as I do full well the deficiencies to-day in county government, that I feel this bill should pass, because I feel that it will give an easement in that line and be a very distinct help in the future. Prior to 1905, when the