whichever it is, and a committee will blossom into life and activity. Is it your thought that we should make available the same sum to all standing committees, or would it be graduated by some judgment?

Senator MCCARRAN. It should be graduated by judgment, and I have left the spaces open for that. That is pending now in the Committee on Rules. I don't know whether that is the proper jurisdictional place for it or not.

But this committee, in its work, will deal with it some way or other, and when you do, I am just laying before you now the facts which come before my own committee and of which I have knowledge. But if the Committee on Judiciary is denied the right to make an investigation of a matter that is squarely within its jurisdiction-there is no question about its jurisdiction at all-by reason of the fact that somebody says, or a majority of the Committee on Audit and Control say: "Well, there is no necessity for an investigation of that at all; we won't have it"-and they therefore just kill the resolution.

Let me give you an illustration again, at the hazard of taking a minute longer.

Senator Shipstead introduced a resolution in the Seventy-eighth Congress to cause the Judiciary Committee to make a study and investigation of the constitutionality and jurisdiction of the respective Executive orders and departmental orders, and they gave us $5,000. With the $5,000 we started out, and we found out, after we started and had gone a little way, that the $5,000 would be of no value whatever, so we stopped. I said, "We are not going to throw this money away, because we can't get anywhere." I wrote to the gentleman in charge of the Federal Register and asked him what he thought would be the necessary time to make that investigation and how much of a staff would be necessary. He wrote back that under certain limited conditions we might be able to make it in 18 months and it might require a staff of three or four specially trained attorneys with two or three stenographic clerks.

I immediately reported that to our committee, that we could throw away the $5,000 if we went forward with it and wouldn't get anywhere; and so we have reported it back, asking for $50,000. If we don't get the $50,000, I am not going to spend the balance of the $5,000, I will tell you that, because I know it will be thrown away. But supposing now, as they probably will, they say that there is no necessity for making that investigation. There are 108,000 executive orders-I have them bound over in the Judiciary Committee, which you all can see which were issued since 1943-108,000, every one of them impinging and touching the citizens of the United States. Senator WHITE. With the force of law.

Senator MCCARRAN. And they have all the force and effect of law, and the Judiciary Committee of the Senate may be told they can't go into it to see whether they are constitutional, to see whether they are backed by a congressional act, and yet they all must have emanated or should have emanated from the Congress.

I just give you an illustration of how we are hamstrung.

Pardon the time I have taken.

The CHAIRMAN. We are very glad to have had you here, Senator, and I would suggest, at the conclusion of your testimony, the two resolutions you have mentioned be printed in the record.

Senator McCARRAN. I will leave them.

(The resolutions referred to are as follows:)

[S. Res. 40, 79th Cong., 1st sess.]

RESOLUTION

Resolved, That rule XXV of the Standing Rules of the Senate be, and it is hereby, amended by adding thereto the following new sections:

"4. Each of the several standing committees of the Senate, or any duly authorized subcommittee thereof, shall have the authority to make investigations and conduct studies of any and all matters within the jurisdiction of the committee or which are germane to any matters which have been referred to the committee or which the committee may determine will be of assistance in the performance of its functions and duties; and, in the exercise of such authority, is authorized to hold such hearings, to sit and act at such times and places, to employ such clerical and other assistants, to require by subpena or otherwise the attendance of such witnesses and the production of such books, papers, and documents, to administer such oaths, and to take such testimony as it deems advisable; and to utilize the services, information, facilities, and personnel of the departments and agencies of the Government: Provided, That the cost of stenographic services to report such hearings shall not be in excess of 25 cents per hundred words.

"5. No resolution calling for the establishment of a special or select committee of the Senate shall be considered by the Senate unless there is no standing committee of the Senate whose jurisdiction extends to the subject matter of the investigation or study proposed to be made by such special or select committee."

[S. Res. 41, 79th Cong., 1st Sess.]

RESOLUTION

Resolved, That S. Res. 9, Seventy-ninth Congress, agreed to January 6, 1945, be, and is hereby, amended to read as follows:

"That from February 1, 1945, to the end of the Seventy-ninth Congress, the total expenses of each standing committee of the Senate, or any subcommittee thereof, in connection with the performance of its duties and functions under paragraph 4 of rule XXV of the Standing Rules of the Senate, to be paid out of the contingent fund of the Senate, shall be limited as follows: For the Committee on Agriculture and Forestry, $50,000; for the Committee on Appropriations, $150,000; for the Committee to Audit and Control the Contingent Expenses of the Senate, $ ; for the Committee on Banking and Currency, $50,000; for the Committee on Civil Service, $ for the Committee on Claims, $ ; for the Committee on Commerce, $50,000; for the Committee on the District of Columbia, $ ; for the Committee on Education and Labor, $ ; for the Committee on Enrolled Bills, $ ; for the Committee on Finance, $50,000; for the Committee on Foreign Relations, $50,000; for the Committee on Immigration, $ ; for the Committee on Indian Affairs, $ ; for the Committee on Interoceanic Canals, $ for the Committee on Interstate Commerce, $50,000; for the Committee on Irrigation and Reclamation, $ for the Committee on the Judiciary, $50,000; for the Committee on the Library, ; for the Committee on Manufactures, $ ; for the Committee on Military Affairs, $50,000; for the Committee on Mines and Mining, $ ; the Committee on Naval Affairs, $50,000; for the Committee on Patents, $ for the Committee on Pensions, $ ; for the Committee on Post Offices and Post Roads, $ ; for the Committee on Printing, $ ; for the Committee ; for the Committee on Public Buildings and ; for the Committee on Public Lands and Surveys, $ ; for the Committee on Rules, $ ; for the Committee on Territories and Insular Affairs, $ : Provided, That the limitation herein set forth may be increased, at the request of any standing committee, by such sum or sums as may be approved by the Committee to Audit and Control the Contingent Expenses of the Senate." The CHAIRMAN. Are there any questions?

$

on Privileges and Elections, $ Grounds, $

If there are none, I thank you for your appearance.

;

for

Representative Cochran, we are glad to have you here this morning and will be pleased to hear your statement and you may proceed in your own way. The committee, I know, will be pleased to hear anything you have to suggest.

Mr. COCHRAN. Mr. Chairman, I doubt if I can give you and Senator White any information, in view of your experience. Senator WHITE. Most anybody could. I think you can.

STATEMENT OF HON. JOHN J. COCHRAN, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF MISSOURI

Mr. COCHRAN. Mr. Chairman, I have been interested in this subject for a very long while. I am very much displeased at the final wording of the resolution. Section 2, very broadly, at the outset gives you a great deal of power. If there were a period after the word "Congress" on line 19, and there were an elimination of the provisos, I think you could have accomplished a great deal, but the provisos, in my opinion, nullify a great deal of what is contained in section 2. You are limited in how far you can go.

At the present time, I do not think any question that has confronted the House has received more general approval from the public, press, magazines, commentators, and the columnists than the suggestion of the late Senator Maloney and Representative Monroney. Without exception, everyone seems to feel that it is a necessity. On the other hand, if the committee does nothing except raise salaries and create jobs, I think it would be ridiculed from one end of the country to the other. You have got to do something besides that, and it is not going to be an easy job under this resolution.

For instance, I think that provision should be made-and I speak from the House standpoint, not the Senate-to increase the appropriations for legislative drafting service. On our side that is a lump-sum appropriation and instructions should be given to the legislative drafting service to secure additional help. They tell me it is almost impossible to get the right kind of men now, but if they get the money they will find competent personnel.

Aside from that, I think we should also have, probably in connection with the legislative drafting service, an outstanding research division to serve all Members of Congress or it might be a separate unit.

For years I have been trying to get the Congress to take advantage of the authorizations in the Budget and Accounting Act of 1921 to set up as the representative of Congress, in the Comptroller General's Office, an investigation division. I met with little success until the independent office appropriations bill was pending in the House this year. I offered an amendment which was not subject to a point of order, because the authority was in the Budget and Accounting Act, appropriating, I think, $67,000 for the purpose of setting up an investigation division in the Comptroller General's office to serve the Congress. It should have been $300,000, but at least this is a start. Some years ago the Budget Director came to me and asked me if I would go before the Appropriations Committee with him and advocate an appropriation for an investigation division under the Budget and Accounting Act. I did. They gave him $250,000, and he set up his investigation division under the Budget and Accounting Act, insisting that it be civil service or he wouldn't have anything to do with it. He wanted men, career men, that were sure of their jobs in the future, and a great many of them he wanted to take out of other Government agencies.

Here, you see, we give the executive branch the money to make their investigations, but they would not give Congress a similar amount for investigations, through the Comptroller General's office. The Budget Bureau will not give us the information they secure which enables them to assail the various requests of the Government agencies. When they come down with their appropriations bill, the first thing they do is to submit a justification for the appropriation. We have no information that enables us to assail their justification as to whether they need it or not. We are in the dark.

Well, I am pleased that the Committee on Independent Offices Appropriations accepted my amendment. It was the only amendment added to the bill, and it is reported in the Senate bill. It is only a start, but if we had there a real investigating division, which Mr. Warren said he would be willing to set up if the Congress so desired, we could do away with many special committees for making investigation. All we would have to do would be for the chairman of a committee to call them up, to send men down. You could tell them what you want and put them to work. They could be working all the year round, because the Budget and Accounting Act gives them authority to go into all papers of any Government agency and secure any information that they desire.

These investigation committees have gone so far it is a joke. In my opinion, they will soon have to name an investigating committee to investigate the investigating committees. I thought we were not going to have any in the House this year until you made your recommendation. Then, there were two post-war planning committeesthe Post-War Planning Committee and the Committee on Post-War National Defense. I think we have passed resolutions up to now for 17, and I believe we have got about 30 resolutions pending before Mr. Cox's committee-Haven't we, Mr. Cox?

Mr. Cox. About 5, I think.

Mr. COCHRAN. We have already about 17. In each instance, hardly without any exception, the House committee work is duplicated by a Senate committee. We have a Post-War Planning Committee in the House; you have Senator George's Post-War Planning Committee. We set up these investigating committees, and they go way beyond their jurisdiction. I happen to have the job over in the House that Senator Lucas has in the Senate, that Senator McCarran complained of. We can do nothing but give them the money once the House sets up a committee. The Rules Committee reports a resolution, the House passes on it, and we give them the money, but we require them to bring a break-down in to us showing what they are going to do.

One committee came in a few weeks ago, brought in a break-down showing that they were going off on a "new" job; they were going to investigate taxation from the standpoint of the small businessman. I said, "We are appropriating about $80,000 a year and have been for 15 or 20 years to the Joint Committee on Internal Revenue Taxation. They have many experts there that operate all the year round; five Members of the House and five of the Senate, the ranking members of the Ways and Means Committee and the Finance Committee are members."

It so happens that Jere Cooper was there to speak about another matter, and when we disposed of that resolution I questioned Jere Cooper about it because he is a member of the Joint Committee on

Internal Revenue Taxation. He said they were doing the same thing and had a meeting the next day.

Well, they were very much displeased because I wouldn't recommend $40,000 to set up an investigation of taxation, the effect of taxation on small business. Why should we when we had a joint committee doing that very job.

Take the standing committees. All the chairmen are jealous of their committees. They want to maintain them. Suggestions have been made in articles and magazines and by columnists that we should at least cut them in half. Some suggestions were made, I think by the former Associate Justice Brynes, that they be reduced to 15. Something has to be done, because under the present conditions the members just do not have the time to attend to all their assignments. There is one member of the House on 8 committees. I heard Senator Maloney's statement before the Rules Committee of the House and he said that very morning when he appeared before the Rules Committee he had 5 meetings and on 2 of them he was chairman of a subcommittee. He made that statement. He said what he did was to go from room to room and authorize somebody to vote. He didn't know what they were going to vote on, but he left his proxy.

The chairmen do not want to lose their chairmanships or their patronage. We cannot blame them for that, but if the job is done, we must think of the House, not the individual.

For instance, you take the Committee on Election of President, Vice President, and Representatives in Congress of the House. It seems to me we could very well combine three election committees, as well as the Census Committee, with that committee. The Census Committee only meets now and then. There is one big job, passing the law to take the census every 10 years. The apportionment of the Members of Congress is based upon the census. If you combined. them, you would be getting rid of four committees.

There is only one objection that I can see to that suggestion, and that is they might say that we have to be extremely careful due to the fact that there may be members of that committee from a State where you have an election contest. That could be overcome by the chairman of the committee appointing a subcommittee to handle the election contest, being sure not to appoint a man from the State involved in the election contest.

Now, to go on down the line on the House side

Senator WHITE. Would that permit the elimination of the Committee on Privileges and Elections?

Mr. COCHRAN. I am not talking about the Senate at all. I am only talking about the House side of it.

Senator WHITE. I thought for a moment you had that in mind.

Mr. COCHRAN. No, no; I am not going to interfere with the Senate. That is up to the Senators.

The VICE CHAIRMAN. We have four election committees in the House.

Mr. COCHRAN. No; only three. mittee on Coinage, Weights, and Measures for many years. I tried to get off it several times. They refused to let me get off. I don't think that committee has met more than twice a year except on two occasions. One important job was to consider a resolution extending the stabilization fund and giving the President authority to revalue the dollar. In the last resolution we passed we dropped the second

I have been a member of the Com