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This is important legislation. I was the House Committee on Science and in parts of the country in which they do pleased to introduce the Senate com- Astronautics.

not now exist. panion bill which the senior Senator In his statement, Dr. Gross made a Dr. Gross also said: from Idaho joined with me in sponsor- plea for greater geographic distribution

It will be necessary frankly to recognize ing. The legislation is urgently needed of research funds "for the purpose of the desirability of placing a larger amount because the principal reason for the building up a broader base of high of the total budget into universities that backlog of cases in the Indian Claims quality institutions scattered throughout have the potential of reaching top rank, but Commission is the fact that many Indian the land.”

that have not yet done so, for it is in our litigants lack the funds to prepare their

Dr. Gross' plea is of particular sig- long-run interest to have top quality unicases for trial. Chief Commissioner nificance to the Senate because it bears versities and research laboratories widely

placed throughout the country. Arthur V. Watkins, our former colleague directly on one of the issues which was from Utah, has been doing a fine job of involved in our consideration of the

EXHIBIT 1 trying to expedite the cases. But it has water resources research bill, S. 2, which

GOVERNMENT AND SCIENCE not been an easy task, and the problem the Senate has passed. It is now pend- (Statement of Dr. Paul M. Gross, chairman of payment of expert witnesses has been ing before the House Interior and In

of the board of directors, American Assoa stumbling block. sular Affairs Committee.

ciation for the Advancement of Science,

before the Subcommittee on Science, ReThe new law creates a revolving fund The argument has been made that it

search, and Development of the House of from which loans can be made to Indian is a mistake to divide Federal water re Representatives Committee on Science and tribes to enable them to hire expert wit- search assistance funds among 50 States; Astronautics, October 22, 1963) nesses. This should go a long way to that they should be concentrated on a Mr. DADDARIO and members of the subward relieving the heavy docket of the relatively few “centers of excellence.” committee, I appreciate the opportunity to Indian Claims Commission.

Refuting that argument, I have con meet with you today to discuss some of the I ask unanimous consent that an edi- tended that the land-grant colleges and persistent problems involved in the relations torial on this subject published in yester- universities in the 50 States have demon- between Government and science. Earlier

witnesses in these hearings, and other witday's Washington Post be printed in strated their ability to administer rethe RECORD at the conclusion of my search programs through their unrivaled ings over the past years, have discussed a

nesses in legislative and appropriation hearremarks.

work in the agricultural field; second, number of specific problems, such as budgetThere being no objection, the editorial that the varying nature of water prob- ary levels; the problems and results of rewas ordered to be printed in the RECORD, lems makes a center in each State desir- search in the medical sciences, in space, and as follows:

able; third, that the widespread need for in other areas; or the proper allowance for INDIAN CLAIMS RELIEF

indirect expenses. Instead of following their advice and assistance on the part of inCongress has passed an act that should dividuals, industries, communities, and lead, I wish today to discuss a few more gen

eral issues, for it seems to me that this subsubstantially relieve the bind in which many governments in the water management

committee has a special opportunity to conIndian tribes have found themselves in press- field supports the argument for State sider the underlying and more fundamental ing their claims against the Government. water research centers; and, finally, issues involved in the relations between Back in 1946, the Indian Claims Commission that there is need to build up more cen Government and science. was created to hear the Indian cases--mostly ters of competence in the water research When you invited the American Association claims for compensation arising from the

field both to do our growing load of re for the Advancement of Science to take part taking of tribal lands. In many instances, search work and to train specialists in in these hearings, you asked us to consider however, the tribes have had no funds to water problems.

two questions: first, what are some of the prepare their cases. So the work of settling them has dragged, and no end of the task is

Dr. Gross' well-reasoned statement on in the relations between Government and

most important or difficult problems involved in sight.

relationships between government and science; and, second, how might the AssociaThe problem was further complicated by science merits the attention of every tion be of help in enabling the Congress to the Commission's concern over the payment Member who has any concern with the deal more effectively with issues in which of many expert witnesses for the Indians on matter, apart from the particular aspect science and Government interact. In taking a contingent-fee basis. This meant that I am discussing. Consequently, I ask up the first of these two questions, I should some advisers and expert witnesses would not be paid unless the Indians won their

unanimous consent to have it printed in like to try to get behind the specifics of parthe Record at the conclusion of these aspects of their administrative management

ticular fields of research and particular case. In such instances the Commission had to weigh the testimony in the light of the remarks.

to consider some of the basic, persistent probfinancial interest of the witness in the out The PRESIDING OFFICER. Is there lems of Government-science relationships. come,

objection to the request of the Senator Because these problems are fundamental and The Indian Claims Commission laid its from New Mexico? The Chair hears persistent, they deserve the thoughtful conproblem before Congress and asked for the none, and it is so ordered.

sideration of the subcommittee, of the Concreation of a revolving fund from which the

(See exhibit 1.)

gress, and of the scientific community. Secretary of the Interior could make loans to the tribes for the hiring of expert research

RELATIONS BETWEEN GOVERNMENT OBJECTIVES IN Mr. ANDERSON. With special refer

APPROPRIATING FUNDS FOR RESEARCH, AND UNIers and witnesses. Congress has now wiselyence to the water resources research bill,

VERSITY OR COLLEGE OBJECTIVES IN USING responded by authorizing an appropriation I should like to call attention to three

THOSE FUNDS of $900,000 for this purpose. The loans will extracts from his presentation. Dr. be recoverable out of any judgment that the Gross stated to the House subcommittee:

I start with the premise that the present tribes may obtain from their claims. If no

character and size of Federal research and judgment is obtained, the Secretary of the

I suggest that we have reached a stage development expenditures owe their initiaInterior may declare the loan unpayable.

where we can do some longer range planning, tion in large measure to ideas and concepts The act also forbids the Secretary in the

and that it would now be appropriate to originating in the scientific community. The future to approve any contract for the pay- support with selection to be made strictly allot some funds specifically for research basic research supported by NIH, NSF, and

other agencies is almost wholly determined ment of witness fees in such cases on a con

on grounds of quality, as has been the policy tingent basis.

by the scientists themselves, who decide what of the agencies in the past, and to allot some Both the Commission and Congress are

seems worth working on. The applied refunds specifically for the purpose of build search and developmental programs of DOD, to be commended for taking a practical and ing up a broader base of high quality in AEC, NASA, NIH, and other agencies have reasonable way out of what had seemed to stitutions scattered throughout the land. become possible as a result of work which, be a troublesome impasse.

Dr. Gross continued:

in the main, was initiated by scientists. As

some of that work developed, it became clear I propose, therefore, that the Govern that it could and should be exploited to

ment's total objective in supporting science GOVERNMENT AND SCIENCE

serve military, industrial, health, and preswould be better served if immediate re tige goals of the Nation. Mr. ANDERSON. Mr. President, Dr. search competence were not the only cri In appropriating funds for research and Paul M. Gross, chairman of the board terion for the distribution of funds ånd if

development, the Congress has certain obof directors of the American Association provement of science education were to be

some grants for research and for the im jectives in mind, as have the executive agenfor the Advancement of Science, recently made either on a formula basis or by selec

cies in submitting their research and devel

opment budgets. In submitting proposals appeared before the Subcommittee on tion of especially promising institutions with for work that is to be funded from these apScience, Research, ard Development of the intent to develop first-class institutions propriations, scientists and engineers on the

staffs of university, industrial, and other re 3. The third category is science education ducing results that are desirable for the search laboratories also have certain objec at the advanced level. This is closely allied American people. For our investment in tives in mind for the work that they wish to research, for it consists largely of a kind basic research we have built a reputation to carry out.

of research apprenticeship and is supported as a great scientific leader among nationsIn the long run and in general, there is primarily by graduate fellowships and by witness the number of Nobel Prizes that have agreement between the objectives of the Gov- research assistantships.

been awarded to Americans. We have made ernment and the objectives of scientists and 4. Finally, we have to deal with science of the United States the mecca for scientists engineers. But the match is not always a education at the primary and secondary throughout the world. We have learned perfect one, and the amount of agreement levels. At these levels, and even to a sub- much about the nature and history of the between the suppliers and the users of re- stantial degree at the collegiate level, science universe and our planet, about the mechasearch and development funds may be greater education, although not completely divorced nisms of cellular growth and reproduction. in the long run than in the short run, and from participation in research, is of course And basic research has been leading with ingreater for some kinds of research activities not so intimately connected with it as is creasing rapidity to applied research that has than for others.

science education at the advanced, graduate, been of widespread benefit to the American Both scientists and Government officials and professional levels. Consequently the people. A few examples may be quickly understand, however, that there is a strong methods of improving science education at cited. interdependence between the Government, these two levels differs somewhat, and so do 1. Great advances in the health of the which depends upon industrial and educa the appropriate methods of support.

American people have coincided with the extional research laboratories to conduct re A major reason for differentiating between pansion of Federal investment in medical search, and those laboratories, which depend research training at the advanced level and research and public health measures. upon the Government for a large fraction of science education at earlier levels is the fact 2. The Nation's military might is a direct the necessary financial support.

that the problems of segregation, religious outgrowth of the scientific community's reBecause of this interdependence, there is versus secular control, and the fear of Fed- sponsiveness to the needs of national seneed for mutual understanding and some

eral Government control which cannot be curity. times need for compromise and adjustment avoided at the levels of general education

3. Civil aviation's high degree of safety of differences and objectives. There is also are comparatively irrelevant in considerations stems from research that is fundamental to need for the kind of analysis of basic prob of support for research and research train traffic control and navigation devices. lems that this subcommittee is undertaking. ing at the advanced level.

4. The productivity of the Nation's farms I believe that some of the specific prob Some of the executive agencies-the Na is directly related to seed and fertilizer delems could be clarified if we think of the tional Institutes of Health, the National velopments that originated in the laboratory. whole area in terms of four parts:

Science Foundation, the National Aeronautics Finally, let me cite a single concrete ex1. First, applied research. I place this first and Space Administration are examples—are ample as evidence of the value of basic rebecause much the largest fraction of the involved in all or several of these four search. This is in part from fundamental total Research and Development budget is

kinds of activities. Because of the way in research in radiation biology, a field with spent for the development, the testing, and which responsibilities are assigned to com which I have some acquaintance because of the associated applied research involved in mittees of the Congress, several of the com my association with the Oak Ridge Institute perfecting or bringing into use new equip mittees have responsibility over all or several of Nuclear Studies.

of these four areas. ment, new methods, and new products. A

I would not suggest that

First let me give the title of an early paper great deal of money is required to develop a the four be separated by agencies—with some published in the Journal of Economic Entonew weapon system, but the objective can be agencies responsible, for example, only for mology in 1951. This was "Experiments with foreseen with reasonable clarity, and it is

applied research and development and for screw-worm flies sterilized by X-rays.If thus reasonably easy to make some of the bidden to interest themselves in basic re

one did not live in Florida or Texas and knew necessary decisions. Nevertheless, it is rare

search or science education—nor is it real- nothing about screw-worm flies, this might that such a system can be perfected without istic to suggest that congressional commit

at first glance indeed seem a subject of doubtfinding gaps in our fundamental scientific tees have their responsibilities similarly dif

ful merit on which to spend Federal research knowledge.

ferentiated. I would suggest, however, that funds. A deeper look, however, would reveal As an example, let me consider in general in the formation of policies, and at some

the following: terms the development of a weapon system. stages in the consideration of appropriations,

(a) Fatal wounds in cattle in Florida and It began to appear feasible to develop an we can think more clearly about govern

Texas caused by maggots from eggs of the effective antimissile when three essential ment-science relations if we think separately

screw-worm fly caused losses estimated by about these four areas. If we do that, we

cattlemen to aggregate at least $100 million components became available: radar, adequate to track a missile, very fast computers

a year. will have clearer opportunities for reaching decisions both concerning policy and con

(b) Basic research on the ecology of this that could quickly plot the required interception course for an antimissile, and a small

insect, its flight, mating, feeding, and other cerning operational management. nuclear warhead. These were the principal

habits has led to a method for eliminating

Let me suggest several advantages of such necessary components, but as work on an a separation. First, we could establish more

its occurrence, at least in Florida. antimissile progressed, it soon became ap

(c) Stated simply, this consists of breedfirmly our policies concerning support for

fundamental parent that there were large gaps in knowl

research. In the current

ing large numbers of the fly and sterilizing edge and that substantial additions to basic budget for research and development of ap

the males. These, after wholesale release, knowledge were necessary. proximately $15 billion, 10 percent or less is

mate with naturally occurring females, but In my experience, this same kind of situdevoted to basic research. A wealth of ex

only sterile eggs result.

(d) After systematic application of this ation arises frequently in industry. A new

perience tells us that when money gets tight, development is delayed by the necessity for

it is this area that is most

likely to suffer, quite new and novel technique of insect confor as I pointed out earlier, it is less easy to

trol in Florida for about 2 years, the insect further research. Industry frequently solves agree upon what is most worth doing. It is

was practically eradicated and its serious such problems by a cut-and-try process inharder to explain why a particular study is

menace to the Florida livestock industry volving the use of a large number of scien

eliminated. tists. With a more adequate store of basic meritorious and it is easier for an antagonistic critic to make fun of a particular in

(e) From my general knowledge of reknowledge available, the objective could frequently be more quickly attained and with a vestigation, the nature and purposes of which

search costs, I believe that the cost for the more economical and efficient use of availaneither he nor his hearers understand, than

basic research involved did not exceed $1 milble scientific manpower.

it is to poke fun at research specifically lion in all. The annual savings to the live2. The second category is basic research. pointed toward the achievement of a desir

stock industry of Florida alone would pay In the abstract, people would agree that the able military, medical, or industrial goal. many times over not only for this but for

much other basic research. purpose of supporting basic research is to

Consequently, when money gets tight, it is strengthen the Nation's scientific compethe basic research category that is most likely arately the costs of basic research and the

One of the advantages of treating septo suffer. tence, to gain a better understanding of the processes of nature, and to acquire new

If we differentiated more clearly between

much greater costs of development is that knowledge, some of which will prove to be basic research, on the one hand, and applied for. For $1.5 billion a year we get our whole

it becomes easier to see what we are paying of practical usefulness. It is in this area

research, development, and testing, on the that the scientist finds it most difficult to other, it would, I think, be easier to agree

basic research program, including many exexplain to Congress, to the general public,

upon the appropriate level of support that amples such as the one I have cited on the and sometimes even to scientists in other the Nation can afford. We are now spending

mating habits of the screw-worm fly. The fields of research, just what he is doing and a billion and a half dollars or less a year

more frequently cited figure of $15 billion

a year includes the developmental costs of why he thinks it worthwhile. It is in this

on basic research. I would contend that the area also that. journalists and others find Nation is getting its money's worth for this

military, atomic energy, space, and other amount, for this is the money that we spend agencies, and Congress can defend a billion

large programs. it easiest to poke fun at the whole enterprise

Scientists, the executive by selecting a title which they probably do to renew and extend our fundamental stock

and a half dollars a year for basic research, not understand and which may appear trivial of scientific knowledge.

and can point to such examples as one kind or even ludicrous out of the context of tech The issue is not whether x dollars is too of justification. It is not so easy to justify nical language of the

the particular field little or too much for science, but whether such work or the level of expenditure if the concerned.

the Nation's investment in research is pro- budget is thought of as $15 billion a year,

a budget that includes a great deal of work health, for our activities in space, for in- many such institutions. Consequently there that the country has decided is necessary dustry, agriculture, and for national pres- has been a pile-up of Federal research funds but that does not belong in the basic research tige. On the other hand, the cognizant in a relatively small number of our best category.

agencies, such as the National Science Foun- qualified universities. In order to fulfill The second advantage of a clearer sepa dation or the National Institutes of Health, their obligations, these universities have ration of basic research from applied research, and their grantees have a better basis for de recruited competent scientists from other development, and testing would be in the ciding how money for basic research should universities and colleges, and so there has clarification of our worries about duplica- be spent and how money for the advanced been further concentration of research talent tion. Congress has very rightly been worried and graduate education of prospective scien- in the best institutions. From time to time, about the duplication of effort in the research tists should be spent. Confusion, mistrust, this system has been criticized and the claim and development sphere. Scientists equally and a considerable amount of wasted ef- advanced that research funds should be more correctly deny that there is any intentional fort result when either group tries to make broadly allocated among the 50 States. The duplication in basic research. Congress decisions that might better be made by the concentrated distribution has often seemed wishes to save money, and can very properly other. In his testimony a few days ago, necessary in the past. The urgency of raise questions about duplication of develop- Dr. Wiesner spoke of the great speed with attaining some of the goals we have had in mental efforts in the programs of agencies which a new finding in science may alter a mind would have made anything like an that have overlapping responsibilities. But variety of research activities. When this equal distribution among the 50 States a duplication of effort in basic research is a happens, a great deal of time can be wasted serious mistake. quite different matter. The scientist's own by going through a lot of bureaucratic red But this situation has posed a dilemma for motivation, his reputation for originality, tape to secure permission to alter the direc- Congress, one that was illustrated—to take a and the elaborate procedures that have been tion of a study or to secure a piece of equip- single example—by the hearings of a subcomestablished for exchanging information about ment the need for which was not forseen mittee of the Committee on Appropriations the research that is being undertaken in when the proposal was originally submitted. of the House of Representatives earlier this different laboratories, should constitute Congress and the Office of the President have year. In reviewing the 1964 budget of the much better guarantees against unnecessary great and overriding responsibilities for the National Science Foundation, officers of the duplication than could be provided by any health of the Nation's research and develop- National Science Foundation were criticized set of governmental regulations or congres- ment effort. They need not and should not several times for what members of the subsional hearings. dilute that responsibility by attempting to

committee considered undue concentration Third, questions of overhead, of the kinds exercise a kind of control in one area that of NSF funds in a few States. The same of reporting required, of the relative merits is only appropriate in some other area, or by hearings, however, resulted in striking out of grants versus contracts, and other prob- attempting to make detailed research de of the NSF budget the funds that had been lems of management would, I believe, be cisions which they are not truly qualified to requested for developmental grants that easier to agree upon if we took them up sepa make. Who is responsible for what would would have enabled NSF to assist a number rately for basic research and for applied re be easier to decide if we were thinking sep- of universities to attain greater research comsearch and development than they have been arately about these four parts of the total petence, and thus on merit to secure a larger when these have all been lumped together research and development effort than if we proportion of funds handled through the into an undifferentiated category.

try to establish rules and procedures for all regular grant procedures of the National Fourth, the Government supports science of our research and development activities. Science Foundation and other agencies. education in a variety of ways in order to Consequently, it seems to me altogether

We cannot let down our guard, but I sughave a continuing supply of people qualified desirable that the subcommittee take up gest that we have reached a stage where we in pure science and its applied fields, but seriously and in depth the general question can do some longer range planning, and that there is a considerable amount of confusion of the relationships between government and

it would now be appropriate to allot some in the process. For example, much of the science. I believe that you can take up

funds specifically for research support with money that is allotted for research purposes these questions most constructively if the selection to be made strictly on grounds of is, in fact, used for the advanced training of four areas that I have discussed are looked quality, as has been the policy of the agencies graduate students. I said earlier that edu

at one at a time to see what their problems in the past, and to allot some funds specification at this level consists largely of a are and how those problems can best be

cally for the purpose of building up a broader research apprenticeship. A great number of solved.

base of high-quality institutions scattered the grants for basic research and many of GEOGRAPHIC DISTRIBUTION OF RESEARCH FUNDS

throughout the land. those for applied research that are carried

Here clearly is a matter of high policy for out in university laboratories include funds The second general problem that I would

the Congress and the President's Office. The for graduate assistants. The money is uselike to discuss is closely related to the first.

change of policy would recognize that there fully spent, and the training received by The problem is that of the geographic dis is now an overemphasis on research at the graduate students contributes to our future tribution of Federal research funds.

expense of teaching and an overemphasis supply of scientists and engineers. But some

The facts are perfectly clear and are a upon short-time research goals at the exof the ic sues are clouded, because money that matter of record for each agency. A few pense of a broadened research competence. appears in the budget for one purpose is States get a great deal more money than When the establishment of the National expended for a related but nevertheless dif- do all the rest. In general, the States that Science Foundation was first being debated ferent purpose.

get the most money for research are such in Congress, consideration was given to the There are some major differences between populous States as California, Massachusetts,

possibility of alloting some portion of its the proper methods of support for science and New York, but even on a per capita basis funds—perhaps 25 percent-among the seveducation at the graduate level and for sci the disparities among the States are tre

eral States on a formula basis and of allotence education for younger students. The mendous. Whether the distribution is what

ting 75 percent strictly on the basis of merit. budgets upon which Congress has to act in it ought to be has been and and no doubt

This proposal was killed, partly because the clude funds for both of these levels. But at

will continue to be subject to a good deal pork-barrel label got attached to it, but the no point in their consideration is there a of argument. A considerable part of the

objective is still desirable. I propose, thereclean separation between the two, and con argument has been confused and confusing fore, that the Government's total objective sequently there is never an opportunity for because we have been trying to use the same

in supporting science would be better served a clear decision as to how much money can money for objectives that in the short run

if immediate research competence were not appropriately go to each and the differences are mutually contradictory. In the abstract,

the only criterion for the distribution of in arrangements that will most effectively most people would, I believe, agree that it funds and if some grants for research and for foster each set of objectives. is desirable that research be done on a va

the improvement of science education were Fifth, a clearer separation of the four riety of problems and that the research be

to be made either on a formula basis or by areas of support that I have been discussing of as high quality as we can procure. In the selection of especially promising institutions would make it easier to define the kinds of abstract, I believe also that most people

with the intent to develop first-class instituresponsibility that can most appropriately would agree that it would be desirable to

tions in parts of the country in which they be carried out by Congress, by the executive have a larger number of research and educa

do not now exist. agencies, and by the scientists who are ultitional institutions of high quality, and that

To the extent that Federal funds can be mately responsible for the research and edu- such institutions should be located in varicational activities that are being supported. ous parts of the country instead of being necessary to use a larger fraction of that

used to accomplish this purpose, it will be The lines are not completely sharp, but I concentrated in a few locations.

money than we have been using in past years would suggest that Congress and the Office In practice, there has been conflict between

in the form of institutional grants rather of the President have primary responsibility these two objectives. The need for defense,

than individual project grants, and it will be for deciding what the total budget shall be the fear of possible attack, the desire to

necessary frankly to recognize the desirabiland how it should be divided among these ameliorate or even eradicate crippling and

ity of placing a larger amount of the total four broad areas. Within the area of dedisabling diseases, and the desire to achieve

budget into universities that have the potenvelopment, testing, and associated applied other national goals as rapidly as possible

tial of reaching top rank but that have not research, Congress and the Office of the Presi- have all argued in the direction of placing yet done so, for it is in our longrun interest dent also have primary responsibility for sub research grants and contracts with those to have top-quality universities and research dividing funds, for here are involved spe- institutions that are best qualified to con laboratories widely placed throughout the cific national goals—for defense, for public duct the desired research. There are not country.

All in all, as a long-range problem, I would ent ideas about this possibility, kept them tions of a problem with which the commitlist the matter of arriving at a better adjust- together for 3 days of intensive discussion, tee was concerned. The discussions might ment between the immediate, short-term re- and as a result published in Science an be held here and constitute part of the search goals and the long-term goal of at- analysis that did not try to give a simple record, or they might be held in a more intaining a broadened nätional educational and yes or no answer to the question of whether formal atmosphere at our building and be research competence as one of the most there should be such a department of gov off the record. The British have had considfundamental and important problems in the ernment, but instead laid out the issues, erable success, and also some problems, with area of Government-science relations. discussed the pros and cons, and tried to a standing committee consisting in part of NATURE OF THE AAAS analyze the probable effects of the several Members of Parliament and in part of scien

tists. The Parliamentary and Science ComI shall turn now to the second topic that proposals that were then current.

As another example, in 1952 we published mittee meets periodically to discuss matters I was asked to discuss, the nature of the

a book reviewing the status of work in the that are to come before Parliament. I do American Association for the Advancement

various fields of science in Soviet Russia. not think that a standing committee would of Science and the ways in which it might

This was before there was any general con be the best arrangement here, but perhaps help the Congress to fulfill its obligation to

cern over a race with the Russians, and it it would be useful to arrange some ad hoc study and review legislative matters that are

has since become much easier to get in- joint meetings that would serve a similar influenced by or that have an influence upon formation about what the Russians have purpose. science and science education.

been doing. But at the time, it served as a As a third possibility, it may at times be Just as the American Bar Association is the widely useful source book of information possible for us to carry out analyses or studies large, national, voluntary society of lawyers about Russian scientific work. More re that would be of use. Problems of air polin the United States, so the American Asso

cently we have done the same thing for lution are beginning to become of general ciation for the Advancement of Science is the

Communist China. In 1960 we set a group concern and have long been of concern to large, national, voluntary society of scien- of American and Chinese-American schol some local areas, notably Los Angeles. The tists. The association was established 115

ars the task of reviewing all of the Chi- atmosphere is one of our most precious years ago. It now has 90,000 members. It

nese journals and scientific reports that natural resources, and we have been doing covers all fields of science: astronomy, mathe

were available in the United States. The a number of things to it that may irrevocably matics, physics and chemistry, the various

amount of material for the decade of the alter its character and its value. For the fields of biology, agriculture, medicine, psy

1950's was extensive, but since then the flow past 2 years the association has had a group chology, and the social sciences. While we

of information from Communist China has of physicists, chemists, economists, urban have sections in all of these fields, provide for

been substantially curtailed. We published planners, and public health specialists, with meetings coverings all fields, and publish the result in 1961, and it is still the best the help of a small staff, conducting a study papers and technical symposia in all, most of

available source of information about what of this important problem. We will have our attention is devoted to matters that con the Communist Chinese are doing in geo- the report ready for publication next year. cern science as a whole, that involve several physics, medicine, and a variety of other As another example, last month we pubdifferent fields of science, or that deal with fields.

lished in Spanish and later this fall will questions of science education. In the last

The magazine Science and analyses such publish in English a review of American 8 or 9 years, we have been devoting a good

as those I have described are primarily in- experience in the handling of arid land deal of time and energy to problems of

tended for scientists. They are read by problems. We published the Spanish verscience education.

others, but in the main they reach a scien sion first because it constituted the U.S. We hold national and regional meetings tific audience. I want, therefore, to men contribution to the Latin American Coneach year. Occasionally we are responsible tion three ways in which we might be of gress on Arid Lands that was held with for international scientific congresses. And

more direct help to the Congress. Whether UNESCO assistance in Argentina last month. we have a number of publications dealing

the suggestions I am going to make would be Both these studies of the atmosphere and with science, science education, and the pub- helpful is something I hope you will dis- of arid lands were planned and written not lic understanding of science.

cuss. The extent to which we could do these with any particular legislative or congresAs a matter of general policy, we rarely take or other things that you might propose is sional problem in mind, but rather as efforts formal positions on public issues. This is not something that I would want to discuss to bring together the available information because of lack of interest, but rather because with the association's board of directors, for

on an important matter of public concern. we think we can be of greater service by pro there are limits on what an organization I hope that they will be widely useful. They viding an open forum for their analysis and that has a limited staff and that is pri- might have been of more direct use to you discussion than we could by trying to decide marily supported by the annual dues of its had we discussed with you your interest in upon the right answer in each case. Once in members can promise to do.

such matters before we started the two a while there is an exception. For example, Several recent bills have advocated the es studies. from 1946 to 1950 we tried very hard to per tablishment of a group of scientific staff As an example of how such discussions suade the Congress and the country that it members or science consultants to work with in advance might be useful, I refer again would be a good thing to establish the Na- Congress and its committees.

If such a

to the problem of geographic distribution tional Science Foundation. But in general congressional office is established, the staff of Federal support for scientific research and we do not try to influence legislation or na- will certainly not be large enough to han for science education. These are questions tional policy by taking a position on one side dle all questions by itself. Help from out of obvious concern to Congress. They are of an issue.

side will be needed, just as you have indi matters that affect the operating policies Instead, we provide a forum for debate cated that the existing committees need of a number of Government agencies. And and discussion. This is done at annual help.

they are of great importance to the edumeetings. It is also done, on a continuing One possibility for us would be to serve as cational institutions of the country. basis, through the weekly magazine Science a source of information about advisers. It Obviously the suggestions I have made which we publish. Editorials, news, and is always difficult and sometimes impossible would by no means wholly solve the probnews analyses concerning pending legisla- to get advisers who are well informed about lem of giving Congress the competence it tion, programs, and decisions of the execu a matter and who are not involved either as

seeks in handling scientific and technical tive agencies, and other political, economic, recipients of Government grants or as ad problems. But if, after you and the staff and social actions and forces that have a visers to executive agencies. But we know have had an opportunity to consider these bearing on science or upon which scientific the scientists of the country, and perhaps as and other ideas, it appears that the assoactivities have a bearing are published regu well as anyone else could arrange to get well ciation can be of real assistance, we will larly in Science. These are very widely read qualified advisers on a variety of scientific be glad to continue the discussion of diin the scientific community and have a fair matters of concern to congressional commit rections in which we might help. readership among governmental policymak tees. ers. A fast printing schedule enables Sci A second possibility is through the seminar ence to reach the scientific community very mechanism. The Committee on Science and

VIETNAM rapidly; the editorial staff finished writing Astronautics has its own panel of advisers Mr. MANSFIELD. Mr. President, I last night or even today the news and com that meets periodically. In a quite different ask unanimous consent that I may proment material that will be printed and fashion, we have held, jointly with the mailed tomorrow in this week's issue of

ceed for not to exceed 6 minutes and at Brookings Institution, several series of semScience. inars for an invited group of Members of

the conclusion of my remarks to have A second way in which we have attempted the House of Representatives. Mr. DADDARIO

printed a statement I made on the Vietto serve a useful role is through the publica and Mr. MOSHER, I am told, have been regular nam uprising on November 1. tion of analyses of problems that arise in participants in those seminars. Each sem The PRESIDING OFFICER. Withthe interaction between science and public inar has dealt with a specific area of re

out objection, it is so ordered. affairs. As an example, several years ago search. The purpose in all cases has been

(See exhibit 1.) there was considerable interest in the pos educational and deliberately has not dealt sibility of establishing a Cabinet-level De

Mr. MANSFIELD. Mr. President, the with pending legislation. But if a commitpartment of Science or Department of Sci tee wishes, we could arrange for a speaker recent events in Vietnam are tragic ence and Technology. We collected half a or a panel of scientists to discuss the scien events. It is tragic that a leader who dozen knowledgeable people who held differ tific background or the probable implica- began by accomplishing so much that

was constructive with so little, that a should begin to see results in the period very wise Senator from Montana [Mr. Government which began with so much ahead. We should see:

MANSFIELD). There is no Member of promise, in the end crumbled in mili First. A reduction in the commitment this body and few in the United States tary coup and violent death, a situation of U.S. forces and aid in Vietnam and who know and understand that area and which I deeply and personally regret. southeast Asia;

its people as well as he. I had the priviWhen news of these events first reached Second. The emergence in Vietnam of lege of being with him on his last trip to this city, it seemed to me that their pri- a responsible and responsive civilian gov Vietnam, and would like to underline his mary significance to the United States ernment attuned to the needs and rea thought that these are days of decision was clear. They were a clarion call for sonable aspirations of its people; for the people of Vietnam. They can a reassessment of U.S. policies with re Third. An improvement in the rela make up their minds to go along the spect to Vietnam and southeast Asia. tions of Vietnam with Cambodia and democratic path we have hoped they will For the government which fell, up until Laos;

follow, or they can follow the paths of a few months ago, had been generally Fourth. A growth in mutual commer other countries in the Far East, of which regarded for years, I so felt, as indis- cial, cultural, and other friendly inter Korea would be an example. The Vietpensable in the structure of American

course between the people of this Na namese have seen what happens when a policy in southeast Asia. We will fail tion and the various Asian people. country does not enjoy the regard or reto heed this call only at the risk of great

These are basic tests, Mr. President, spect of her people—the people will evendanger to the future of our relations with and it remains to be seen how they shall tually toss out the government. On the all of Asia.

be met not only in our relations with other hand, if the government enjoys the We will not serve the interests of the the successor authority in Saigon but respect and regard of the people, the peoNation if:

with all the nations of southeast Asia. ple embrace it and it remains in power. First. We regard the overthrow of the From the point of view of this Nation, We hope this lesson will not be lost on Diem government as a victory or defeat it would appear appropriate to reiterate the new Government of Vietnam. We for this country. It is neither. It is at this time what the Senator from also hope that Government will not lean more an inexorable development in the Rhode Island (Mr. PELL] and the Sen- too heavily on the United States, as our tragic postwar history of the Vietnamese ator from Delaware (Mr. Boggs] will re- eventual goal remains not only the restopeople.

call that we stated on our return from a ration of Vietnamese freedom from Second. If we reassume that the suc- visit to Vietnam and southeast Asia less authoritarianism, no matter whether cessor military-dominated regime is an than a year ago:

Communist or otherwise, but the reducautomatic guarantee of a permanment

tion of our manpower and financial comimprovement in the situation in Vietnam. to the Vietnamese where the primary re

It must be clear to ourselves as well as

mitment in South Vietnam. This successor authority in Vietnam is, sponsibility lies in this situation. It must

Mr. BOGGS. Mr. President, I was in at this point, at best a promise of some rest, as it has rested, with the Vietnamese the Chamber when the distinguished mathing better. But if the Korean experi- Government and people. What further ef- jority leader, the Senator from Montana ence is at all relevant, it is apparent that fort may be needed for the survival of the [Mr. MANSFIELD] made what I consider to such promises can be undone in short Republic of Vietnam in present circum

be a very comprehensive and important order. stances must come from that source. If it

statement concerning the situation in If these tragic events of the past few is not forthcoming, the United States can

Vietnam. reduce its commitment or abandon it endays are to have constructive signifi- tirely but there is no interest of the United

I recognize in the very able majority cance for this Nation as well as for the States in Vietnam which would justify, in leader a man of great wisdom and a stuVietnamese people, we would be well present circumstances, the conversion of the dent of foreign affairs and of the southadvised to recognize that the effective war in that country primarily into an Amer east Asia area. I thought his statement ness of our Asian policies cannot be ican war, to be fought primarily with Ameri was considerate not only of past developmeasured by an overthrow of a govern

can lives. It is the frequent contention of ments in South Vietnam and the southment, by whether one government is Communist propaganda that such is already

east Asia area, but also one looking hope

It should remain the fact that "easier to work with” than another, by the war in Vietnam is not an American war

fully toward the future with the best inwhether one government smiles at us in present circumstances.

terests of freedom loving people and the and another frowns. In the last analy

people of South Vietnam and the southsis, the effectiveness of our policies and

That conclusion, Mr. President, in my

east Asia area in mind. their administration with respect to the judgment, would apply to the successor

His statement deserves the attention Vietnamese situation and, indeed, all of government in Saigon no less than to its of all of us, and especially of our execusoutheast Asia can only be weighed in predecessor.

tive department, and those concerned the light of these basic questions:

EXHIBIT 1

with the problems in that part of the First. Do these policies make possible STATEMENT OF SENATOR MIKE MANSFIELD world. a progressive reduction in the expendi The news of the uprising in Vietnam came

I take this opportunity to express my tures of American lives and aid in Viet- as a complete surprise to me, and I am quite support of the views and thoughts so nam?

certain a surprise to the administration. well presented by the very able and disSecond. Do these policies hold a valid

There have been rumors, of course, for weeks tinguished majority leader.
promise of encouraging in Vietnam the that a coup d'etat was in the making, but
growth of popularly responsible and re-

there was nothing tangible to reinforce such
an assumption up to this time.

GEORGE F. KENNAN'S VIEWS ON sponsive government? This appears to me to be a purely Viet

FOREIGN POLICY Third. Do these policies contribute namese affair which the Vietnamese should not only to the development of internal settle among themselves. As far as this Gov Mr. FULBRIGHT. Mr. President stability in South Vietnam but to the ernment is concerned, it is my opinion that some comments were made on the floor growth of an environment of a decent the events of the past several hours call more of this body relating to an article about peace and a popularly based stability than ever for a reassessment and reappraisal Mr. George Kennan. Several articles throughout Asia—the kind of environ- of our policy in South Vietnam and, for that

were written. I ask unanimous consent ment which will permit the replacement

matter, in all of southeast Asia.
One would hope that the people of South

that at the end of my remarks, an article of the present heavy dependence upon Vietnam will obtain the kind of government, from Look magazine of November 19, by U.S. arms and resources with an equi- out of these tragic developments, which will

J. Robert Moskin, be included in the table and mutual relationship between be responsive to their needs and responsible RECORD. the Asian peoples and our own?

to them. It remains to be seen whether The PRESIDING OFFICER. Without This is, indeed, an appropriate time, such a government shall emerge, and in any objection, it is so ordered. Mr. President, for the executive branch reappraisal of our policies this would be a

(See exhibit 1.) to reassess policies for Vietnam and

factor of the utmost importance.

I have always had the highest respect for southeast Asia in these terms. It may

Mr. FULBRIGHT. Mr. President, I do

not agree with some of the comments well be that few changes, if any, are re

the integrity, the patriotism, and dedication

of President Ngo Dinh Diem and regret made by Mr. Kennan. I have regarded quired at this time. But if that is the deeply and personally, very much that the him, and still do, as one of the outstandcase—if indeed the problem in Vietnam situation has had to come to such a pass. ing public servants of this country. I has been primarily one of an inadequate Mr. PELL. Mr. President, I rise to think he was, and is, uniquely qualified government—then, Mr. President, we strongly endorse the statement of the to comment on various aspects of our

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