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Congratulations BEN, God bless you. man from Iowa, Congressman JENSEN, SUBCOMMITTEE ON COMMUNICA

Mr. JENSEN. Mr. Speaker, I sin- being elected to Congress November 8, TIONS AND POWER, COMMITTEE cerely appreciate the compliments paid 1938. Today, after 25 years of dedica- ON INTERSTATE AND FOREIGN me today by my colleagues on my 25. tion and resolution, he is the senior Re

COMMERCE years in the House as a servant of the publican member of one of the most people. powerful committees in the House of

Mr. ROGERS of Texas. Mr. Speaker, You have all been most kind to me, as Representatives—the Committee on Ap- I ask unanimous consent that the Subhave the people of the Seventh Iowa Dis- propriations.

committee on Communications and trict, whom I have had the honor to serve Second, I would like to pay tribute to Power of the Committee on Interstate in Congress for a quarter of a century, the gentleman from Iowa, Congressman

and Foreign Commerce may be permitted and in return I can only pledge to do my JENSEN'S awareness of a serious problem

to sit during general debate today.

The SPEAKER. Without objection, very best, by acting and voting the way I in the United States, the depletion of our conscientiously believe is best for all the soil resources. I do not think any Mem- it is so ordered. law-abiding American people, living to- ber of Congress has a better knowledge

There was no objection. day and for generations yet unborn. or appreciation of the seriousness of our Mr. Speaker, I must call to your at- soil loss nor is any more familiar with

MISSION TO MOSCOW tention the fact that another Republican the approaches and solutions to this Member of this House was elected to the problem. In witness of this fact is the Mr. JOHANSEN. Mr. Speaker, I ask House the same day as was I, that gentle- present status of his Seventh Iowa Dis- unanimous consent to address the House man is your friend and mine, the Hon- trict which I understand contains more for 1 minute and to revise and extend my orable CLARENCE BROWN of Ohio. During watershed districts than any other sim- remarks.

The The SPEAKER. Is there objection those 25 years CLARENCE and I have en- ilar district in the United States. joyed a wonderful friendship, and may I gentleman from Iowa [Mr. JENSEN] and to the request of the gentleman from say that all the kind words expressed I agree that the place to control rainfall Michigan? here today in my behalf, could be multi- the greatest cause of our soil erosion, There was no objection.

Mr. JOHANSEN. Mr. Speaker, I wonplied twofold in behalf of the Honorable is where it falls. And I emphatically CLARENCE BROWN, an able legislator, a back up as being extremely wise his po- der what the foolish fascination is which true friend, a great and good man. sition of emphasis on the watershed type prompts American businessmen to make

pilgrimages to the Kremlin for the priviMr. GROSS. Mr. Speaker, I join of conservancy. with my colleague the gentleman from

The gentleman from the Seventh Dis- lege of hearing the United States, capIowa (Mr. HOEVEN] in paying tribute to trict of Iowa has another outstanding italism, and themselves insulted by the the dean of the Iowa delegation in the characteristic that endears him to his bully Khrushchev.

The latest “Mission to Moscow” conHouse of Representatives, the Honorable home constituency and that has resulted BEN F. JENSEN, on the occasion of his in his 12th reelection to Congress. That sisting of 20 businessmen on a Time 25th year of service in this body.

characteristic is his dedication to see magazine-sponsored tour, subjected its It has been my pleasure to serve with that the American taxpayer gets 100 members to this humiliating experience him for 15 years of that quarter of a cents in value for every dollar spent yesterday.

I wonder if they will ever learn that century, and through those years he has This dedication has won him the affecbeen a champion of constitutional gov

tionate title, “The Watchdog of the their attempts to debate Khrushchev ernment, of freedom, and economy. Treasury."

serve only to provide a sounding board It is fitting that his friends throughout

In short, Mr. Speaker, I think the for the Communists' disgraceful insults the Seventh Congressional District of gentleman from Iowa (Mr. JENSEN] con- to the United States.

One wonders whether American busiIowa should assemble tomorrow eve- stitutes embodiment of all the qualities

He is sa- ness leaders have learned anything since ning in Council Bluffs, Iowa, to do him a Congressman should have. honor and express their appreciation for gacious, wise, prudent, responsible, and the days of the original “Mission to Moshis good work.

probably represents, as nearly as it can cow” of President Roosevelt's AmbasBut there can be no recognition of be humanly achieved, the personification sador Davies.

Incidentally, Mr. Khrushchev's threat BEN's long and faithful service in Con- of a Jeffersonian principle that goes gress that does not include a tribute to something like this:

of possible nuclear war over access to his good wife, Lottie, who has been his I am for a government that is rigorously Berlin-delivered during his interview mainstay of strength and comfort frugal and simple, and not for one that mul- with the American businessmen—unless through many congressional storms and tiplies offices to make partisans, that is, to the United States knuckles under to Sopolitical campaigns.

get votes, and by every device increases the viet-imposed rules, is one more evidence

public debt under the guise of being a pub- that he does not share the concern of With my colleagues, I join in wishing lic benefit. both BEN and Lottie many years of good

some timid American leaders that we health and continued service to Iowa and

I conclude my remarks by saying a must avoid “tensions” at any cost. the Nation. groundswell of change is noted through

Nuclear blackmail is no different than Mr. BEERMANN. Mr. Speaker, I out the United States. This change well any other variety of blackmail. would like to associate myself with the Iowa's philosophy. May that ground- make inevitable ultimate capitulation or represents the gentleman from Exira,

If we continue to bow to it, we either remarks made by the gentleman from Iowa [Mr. HOEVEN] and in addition, swell grow to the extent that, when taken a nuclear holocaust.

at full tide, it provides an opportunity Some years ago the eminent columpoint up some of the sterling qualities for him to be of further great service nist, Roscoe Drummond, stated the case FRANKLIN JENSEN, one of the most out to his country. I know he will

meet this with unerring accuracy standing men of this generation to serve

challenge forthrightly and discharge Fear of war has almost constantly parathis Nation in its House of Representa

every responsibility of it with distinction lyzed Western policy (since the end of World tives. and integrity.

War II) but fear of war has not paralyzed

Communist policy * * * if we continue to First, I would like to pay tribute to

be afraid of nuclear war while the Soviets the gentleman from Iowa's (Mr. JENSEN] SUBCOMMITEE


2, SELECT are not afraid of nuclear war, we are going resolution since I note that he was born COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSI- to end up losing diplomatically what we fear on a farm, yet, despite that plain back- NESS

to lose in a nuclear war. ground, by sheer determination, worked

Mr. EVINS. Mr. Speaker, I ask unan

We are not going to defeat the bully himself up to a position of trust and imous consent that Subcommittee No. 2 Khrushchev merely by crossing the street responsibility in a small town business of House Select Committee on Small to avoid facing up to him. firm. Later, he repeated the process Business may be permitted to sit durwhen he entered the U.S. Army as a pri- ing general debate on November 12, 13, vate in 1917, to be discharged at the and 14.

CALL OF THE HOUSE conclusion of hostilities as a lieutenant. The SPEAKER. Without objection, it Mr. VAN PELT. Mr. Speaker, I make The same circumstances are in evi- is so ordered.

the point of order that a quorum is not dence again when we find the gentle- There was no objection.


The SPEAKER. The gentleman from sixty calendar days (exclusive of days on gable waters overlying such lands, for the Wisconsin makes the point of order that which the House of Representatives or the purposes of navigation or flood control or the a quorum is not present, and evidently

Senate is not in session because of an ad- production of power,' or shall be construed a quorum is not present.

journment of more than three days to a day as the release or relinquishment of any

certain) from the date on which the Secre- rights of the United States arising under the Mr. ALBERT. Mr. Speaker, I move a

tary of the Interior submits to the Commit- constitutional authority of Congress to regucall of the House.

tees on Interior and Insular Affairs of the late or improve navigation, or to provide for A call of the House was ordered.

House of Representatives and the Senate an flood control, or the production of power. The Clerk called the roll and the fol- explanatory statement indicating the tract "(c) The United States retains all of its lowing Members failed to answer to their proposed to be conveyed and the need there- navigational servitude and rights in and names:

for, unless prior to the expiration of such powers of regulation and control of the lands [Roll No. 193]

sixty calendar days both committees inform conveyed pursuant to section 1 of this Act

the Secretary that they wish to take no
Rivers, S.C.

and the navigable waters overlying such Anderson Hays

Roberts, Tex.

action with respect to the proposed con- lands, for the constitutional purposes of Arends Hébert Rodino veyance.

commerce, navigation, national defense, and Ashley Holifield Roush

"(d) Conveyances pursuant to this sec- international affairs, all of which shall be Avery Hosmer St. Onge

tion shall be subject to such terms and con- paramount to, but shall not be deemed to Baring Huddleston Scott

ditions as the Secretary of the Interior may include, proprietary rights of ownership, or Bass Kilgore


deem appropriate, and shall be made with- the rights of management, administration, Berry Laird

Smith, Iowa out reimbursement or with such reimburse. leasing, use, and development of the lands Blatnik Lesinski Smith, Va. ment as he may deem appropriate.

and natural resources not in derogation of Burkhalter Lindsay


(e) The governments of Guam, the Vir- United States navigational servitude and Burton McCulloch Stubblefield

gin Islands, and American Samoa shall have rights which are specifically conveyed to the Celler Mailliard Talcott

proprietary rights of ownership and the Chamberlain

governments of Guam, the Virgin Islands, Martin, Mass. Thomas Colmer Michel Thompson, La.

rights of management, administration, leas- or American Samoa, as the case may be, purDague Miller, N.Y. Westland

ing, use, and the development of the lands suant to section 1 of this Act. Davis, Tenn. Milliken Wharton

conveyed pursuant to this section, but the "SEC. 4. (a) Except as otherwise provided Dawson Moss White

Secretary of the Interior and such territorial in this section, the governments of Guam, Denton O'Brien, Ill. Whitten

governments shall not have the power or the Virgin Islands, and American Samoa, Everett

Passman Widnall

right to convey title to such lands unless the

as the case may be, shall have concurrent Foreman Pillion


Secretary of the Interior (1) determines that jurisdiction with the United States over Fulton, Tenn. Pucinski Wright

such right to convey is necessary and (2) parties found, acts performed, and offenses Gray Purcell Wyman

advises the committee of such determina- committed on property owned, reserved, or Griffin Rains

tion in the manner described in subsection controlled by the United States in Guam, the Gubser Rhodes, Ariz.

(c) of this section, and (3) unless the Sec- Virgin Islands, and American Samoa. А The SPEAKER. On this rollcall 355 retary of the Interior, in proposing to convey judgment of conviction or acquittal on the Members have answered to their names,

such lands to such territorial governments, merits under the laws of Guam, the Virgin a quorum.

and such territorial governments in propos- Islands, or American Samoa shall be a bar By unanimous consent, further proing to convey such lands to a third party or to any prosecution under the criminal laws

of the United States for the same act or acts, ceedings under the call were dispensed third parties pursuant to this section, shall

publish notice of such proposed conveyance and a judgment of conviction or acquittal with.

at least once a week for three weeks in a on the merits under the laws of the United

daily newspaper or newspapers of general States shall be a bar to any prosecution unLANDS WITHIN JURISDICTION OF

circulation in the territory affected by the der the laws of Guam, the Virgin Islands, or

proposed conveyance. Such published no- American Samoa for the same act or acts. GUAM, VIRGIN ISLANDS, AND

tice shall include the names of all parties "(b) Notwithstanding the provisions of AMERICAN SAMOA

to the proposed contract of conveyance, the subsection (a) of this section, the President Mr. ASPINALL. Mr. Speaker, I ask purchase price, and a general summary of may from time to time exclude from the unanimous consent to take from the the boundaries of the tract or tracts proposed concurrent jurisdiction of the government

of Guam persons found, acts performed, and Speaker's table the bill (H.R. 2073), to to be included in the conveyance. place certain submerged lands within

-"(f) There shall be excepted from con- offenses committed on the property of the the jurisdiction of the governments of deposits of oil, gas, and other minerals, but veyances made pursuant to this section all United States which is under the control of

the Secretary of Defense to such extent and Guam, the Virgin Islands, and Ameri- the term 'minerals' shall not include sand, in such circumstances as he finds required can Samoa, and for other purposes, with gravel, or coral.

in the interest of the national defense." Senate amendments thereto, and concur “SEC. 2. (a) The Secretary of the Interior Amend the title so as to read: “An Act in the Senate amendments.

shall have administrative responsibility for to authorize the Secretary of the Interior to The Clerk read the title of the bill. all tidelands, submerged lands, or filled lands convey certain submerged lands to the govThe Clerk read the Senate amend- in or adjacent to Guam, the Virgin Islands, ernments of Guam, the Virgin Islands, and

and American Samoa, except (1) lands con- American Samoa, and for other purposes." ments, as follows:

veyed pursuant to section 1 of this Act, (2) Strike out all after the enacting clause lands that are not owned by the United

The SPEAKER. Is there objection to and insert: “That (a) upon the request of States on the date of enactment of this Act,

the request of the gentleman from the Governor of Guam, the Governor of the and (3) lands that are within the adminis- Colorado? Virgin Islands, or the Governor of Ameri- trative responsibility of any other depart- Mr. SAYLOR. Mr. Speaker, reserving can Samoa, the Secretary of the Interior is ment or agency of the United States on the the right to object, I take this opportuauthorized to convey to the government of date of enactment of this Act, for so long nity to direct a question to the chairman the territory concerned whatever right, title, as such condition continues. In exercising of the full committee and ask whether or interest the United States has in par- such authority, the Secretary may grant rev

or not the amendment which has been ticular tracts of tidelands, submerged lands, ocable permits, subject to such terms and or filled lands in or adjacent to the territory, conditions as he may deem appropriate, for proposed in the Senate has been cleared subject to the limitations contained in this the use, occupancy, and filling of such lands, by the Department of the Navy and the section. The term 'tidelands, submerged and for the removal of sand, gravel, and Department of the Interior. lands, or filled lands' means for the purposes coral therefrom.

Mr. ASPINALL. Will my colleague, of this Act all lands permanently or period- “(b) Nothing contained in this section the gentleman from Pennsylvania, yield? ically covered by tidal waters up to but not shall affect the authority heretofore con

Mr. SAYLOR. I am happy to yield to above the line of mean high tide and sea- ferred upon any department, agency, or of

the gentleman from Colorado. ward to a line three geographical miles dis- ficer of the United States with respect to the tance from the coastlines of the territory, lands referred to in this section.

Mr. ASPINALL. May I say in the first as heretofore or hereafter modified by accre- "SEC. 3. (a) Nothing in this Act shall af

instance the amendment of the Senate tion, erosion, and reliction, including arti- fect the right of the President to establish is germane to the bill. May I state also ficially made, filled-in, or reclaimed lands naval defensive sea areas and naval airspace that the Senate has placed some restricwhich were formerly permanently or period- reservations around and over the islands of tions on the procedures that the House ically covered by tidal waters.

Guam, American Samoa, and the Virgin Is- did not consider during its hearings and “(b) No conveyance shall be made pur- lands which he deems necessary for national

consideration. suant to this section unless the land pro- defense.

The legislation as it passed the House posed to be conveyed is clearly required for “(b) Nothing in this Act shall affect the specific economic development purposes or use, development, improvement, or control would have turned over the submerged to satisfy a compelling public need. by or under the constitutional authority of

areas to the three territories which "(c) No conveyance shall be made pur- the United States of the lands conveyed pur- would have had the responsibility of seesuant to this section until the expiration of suant to section 1 of this Act and the navi- ing that they were properly used. Rather than transferring the areas intact, the with procedures prescribed by the Secretary The Dupetit-Thouars is equipped with

Tartar missiles provided by the U.S. Navy, Senate amendment provides that the of Defense. territorial governments should select

For the Secretary of the Navy:

and she has just completed her first training Sincerely yours,

campaign with a success the American naval areas in a piecemeal fashion. Under the

C.R. KEAR, Jr.,

authorities have been pleased to acknowlSenate version when the Governors,

Captain, U.S. Navy,

edge. through the Secretary of the Interior,

Deputy Chief. I am writing to advise you that the captain show a clear use for the land, the sur

and officers of the Dupetit-Thouars would veyors will stipulate the metes and U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR,

feel very honored if Members of the House bounds, the tracts will be advertised in


were interested to visit their vessel, which the newspapers, and the House and Sen

Washington, D.C., November 6, 1963. will be accommodated at the Navy Yard. ate Committees on Interior and Insular Hon. PAUL H. NITZE,

The most convenient time would be Friday, Acting Secretary of the Navy,

the 8th of November, between 2 p.m. and Affairs will be notified of the request. Washington, D.C.

5:30 p.m. Upon the expiration of a 60-day calendar

DEAR MR. NITZE: H.R. 2073, a bill “To place With my best regards, I am, period, the conveyance can be finalized certain submerged lands within the jurisdic

Yours sincerely, under procedures set forth in the bill. tion of the governments of Guam, the Virgin

HERVÉ ALPHAND, The responsibility for justifying the Islands, and American Samoa, and for other French Ambassador to the United States. need for the submerged tracts will rest purposes," has been passed by the Senate

with amendments and returned to the with the Governors, who will seek au

House for consideration of the Senate thorization from the Secretary for the amendments.

PUBLIC DEBT LIMIT transfer. Notices of acceptance of the

Although we prefer the House version of

Mr. BOLLING. Mr. Speaker, by diSenate language from Governors Lee, the bill, we would like to see the bill enacted

rection of the Committee on Rules, I Guerrero, and Paiwonsky have been re- quickly without the need for a conference.

call up House Resolution 564 and ask ceived.

We have advised the chairman of the House

Interior and Insular Affairs Committee to Originally, Navy questioned the ac

for its immediate consideration. ceptance and so stated in a letter to the that effect, and suggested that the House

The Clerk read as follows: accept the Senate amendments. committee. However, upon receipt of a

Resolved, That upon the adoption of this

I am writing to assure you that if the bill letter from Secretary Udall to Secretary is enacted in its present form this Depart

resolution it shall be in order to move that

the House resolve itself into the Committee Nitze, Navy has agreed to voice no objec- ment will not, without the concurrence of of the whole House on the State of the tion to the amended version.

the Navy Department, transfer to a terri- Union for the consideration of the bill (H.R. Mr. SAYLOR. Will the gentleman torial government any tidelands, submerged 8969) to provide, for the period ending June place in the RECORD the letters from the lands, or filled lands that are within the

30, 1964, temporary increases in the public Department of the Navy and the Secre- Department, or that are adjacent to lands

administrative responsibility of the Navy debt limit set forth in section 21 of the tary of the Interior?

Second Liberty Bond Act, and all points of administered by the Navy Department above Mr. ASPINALL. As soon as the ac

order against said bill are hereby waived. the line of mean high tide.

After general debate, which shall be contion is taken on the bill, I will ask the A copy of this letter is being sent to the fined to the bill and continue not to exceed Speaker for unanimous consent to do chairmen of the House and Senate Commit- four hours, to be equally divided and conthat very thing. tees on Interior and Insular Affairs with the

trolled by the chairman and ranking minorDEPARTMENT OF THE NAVY,

suggestion that it be made a part of the ity member of the Committee on Ways and OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY, legislative record of the bill.

Means, the bill shall be considered as having Washington, D.C., November 6, 1963.

Sincerely yours,

been read for amendment. No amendment


shall be in order to said bill except amendChairman, Committee on Interior and Insular

Secretary of the Interior.

ments offered by direction of the Committee Affairs, House of Representatives, Wash- Mr. SAYLOR. Mr. Speaker, I with

on Ways and Means. Amendments offered ington, D.C. draw my reservation of objection.

by direction of the Committee on Ways and MY DEAR MR. CHAIRMAN: Your request for

Means may be offered to the bill at the con

The SPEAKER. Is there objection to comment on H.R. 2073, 88th Congress, a bill

clusion of the general debate, but said "To place certain submerged lands within the

the request of the gentleman from amendments shall not be subject to amendjurisdiction of the governments of Guam, the Colorado?

ment. At the conclusion of the consideraVirgin Islands, and American Samoa, and for

There was no objection.

tion of the bill for amendment, the Comother purposes," as passed by the Senate is The Senate amendments were con

mittee shall rise and report the bill to the acknowledged. curred in.

House with such amendments as may have H.R. 2073 as passed by the House author- A motion to reconsider was laid on

been adopted, and the previous question ized the President to convey the Govern

shall be considered as ordered on the bill the table. ment's interest in submerged lands "adjacent

and amendments thereto to final passage to property owned by the United States above

Mr. ASPINALL. Mr. Speaker, I ask without intervening motion except one mothe line of mean high tide.” The Senate unanimous consent to revise and extend tion to recommit. amendments authorize conveyance by the my remarks during the discussion of the Secretary of Interior of any property interest Senate amendments to H.R. 2073 and

Mr. BOLLING. Mr. Speaker, I yield

30 minutes to the gentleman from Ohio other than "deposits of oil, gas, and other include copies of the letters from the minerals." There is the further provision Secretary of the Navy and the Secretary

[Mr. BROWN]. that the Secretary of Interior may only conof the Interior.

Mr. Speaker, this is the usual rule, as vey to the territorial government upon certain conditions precedent, and the land may

The SPEAKER. Is there objection

far as I know, the rule that has always be conveyed further to third parties only to the request of the gentleman from been adopted for the consideration of

such a matter under all administrations after certain other statutory prerequisites are Colorado?

and in every Congress. It is a closed satisfied. There is no requirement, however, There was no objection. that the Secretary of Interior obtain approval

rule, with 4 hours of general debate. by the Department of Defense for the trans

The only amendments that will be perfer of submerged lands.

VISIT OF THE FRENCH NAVAL SHIP mitted are amendments offered by the Since there are defense facilities (e.g.,


Committee on Ways and Means. Also wharves and piers) which lie in part below mean high tide, and because there are instal- The SPEAKER laid before the House it waives points of order.

I am well aware that there is controlations above mean high tide which depend the following communication, which was for their full utilization on continued Gov. read:

versy on the bill. My own impression ernment control of contiguous areas below


is that the members of the Committee that point, military considerations warrant


on Ways and Means in the overwhelmparticipation by the Department of Defense

Washington, D.C., October 25, 1963. ing majority supported this particular in the determination of whether to effect a The SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTA- rule. Therefore, Mr. Speaker, I reserve transfer in those areas where the Department TIVES,

the balance of my time. of Defense has a vital interest. The Capitol,

Mr. BROWN of Ohio. Mr. Speaker, I Accordingly, the Department of the Navy, Washington, D.C. on behalf of the Department of Defense, ob- DEAR MR. SPEAKER: As you probably know, yield myself such time as I may consume. jects to the Senate version of H.R. 2073 for a vessel of the French Navy, the Dupetit

Mr. Speaker, my colleague on the Rules the reasons set forth above. Thouars, is scheduled to pay a formal visit Committee, my very good

very good personal This report has been coordinated within to the city of Washington from the 8th to friend, the gentleman from Missouri (Mr. the Department of Defense in accordance the 12th of November 1963.

BOLLING), very briefly explained this rule and very honestly stated that this is the themselves and to surrender their right pledges and promises which were made usual rule which comes out of the Com- to exercise their own judgment and their when the House passed the great piece of mittee on Rules in connection with leg- own wisdom in connection with the con- legislation called the tax reduction bill islation from the Committee on Ways sideration of this legislation, or instead which was going to make everybody prosand Means.

to go along with the majority of those perous, and that if it was not enacted Of course, Mr. Speaker, it is the usual who happen to serve on the great com- promptly the Nation would go into a rule, one that we call usual, on legislation mittee on Ways and Means. I under- deep depression. Of course, that has of this type to raise again, for the third stand the bill now before us, which this not happened and will not happen. time this calendar year, the national debt rule makes in order, provides for 4 What will happen to that piece of tax limit, and to lift the ceiling so the Gov- hours' general debate under a closed or reduction legislation which was finally ernment of the United States can go out gag rule, if the rule is adopted, because brought out and rushed through this and borrow more money to meet budget a majority of the membership votes for body rather rapidly, but seems to be deficits, and to provide more funds for it.

having somewhat of a slower pace in the big and unnecessary spending programs This measure was reported out of the other body and probably will not be to be paid off, of course, by our children's great Committee on Ways and Means brought up for a vote in that body bechildren yet unborn.

by a vote of 15 to 10. In my legislative

In my legislative fore some time this coming winter, by Mr. Speaker, this is another gag rule. experience which goes back 45 years I which time perhaps it may even be How often I have taken the floor of this have seen a great many pieces of legis- known to a few people, at least, as to House to oppose these gag rules, I do not lation drawn and brought before legisla- what our budget for fiscal 1965 will be, recall, because I have not taken the time tive bodies. In my opinion—and this is

tive bodies. In my opinion—and this is and what the Federal spending program to count the occasions. However, I do not a criticism of any individual because will be. not want to be repetitious and repeat the I am not sure who really wrote this bill- Let me make a prediction. We have arguments and the statements which I H.R. 8969 is a perfect example of what heard all of these statements that have have made against closed rules so often we might call legislative legerdemain be- been made by supporters of this legislabefore. But I do, Mr. Speaker, want to cause it is not what it appears to be. tion about all the terrible tragedies that say to the membership of this House that Oh, it is true testimony was given before will happen in case legislation of this perhaps I have more confidence in my the Rules Committee that the average type is defeated, in case the House of colleagues than some of my colleagues well-informed Member of Congress, who Representatives spoke out and said, have in themselves. I am firmly and is more or less used to dealing with vari. “Now, we are tired of increasing this fully convinced in my own mind that the ous legislative matters and interpreting debt limit all the time so you can go out average Member of the House of Repre- bills, laws, provisos, and provisions, can and borrow more and more money to sentatives is just as able and just as figure out what this bill really means. spend. We think perhaps such action capable of legislating on this matter, or But I am not so sure the average tax- will help, although it may not accomplish on any tax legislation, as are the Mem- payer, or the average American citizen, everything we desire, but it will help at bers of any other legislative body in this understands, or will understand, this bill.

understands, or will understand, this bill. least to hold down Federal spending." Capitol or elsewhere in the world.

If you will read it the bill provides that If you put a stop to this thing, what Mr. Speaker, I do not like to see my col- the temporary ceiling shall be increased

the temporary ceiling shall be increased would happen? I will tell you what leagues and fellow Members of this House to $309 billion between December 1, 1963,

to $309 billion between December 1, 1963, would happen. It would not be all these downgrade themselves, humiliate them- and June 29, 1964, or to the end of the dire, tragic things that have been painted selves, if you please, by saying, “Oh, yes, present fiscal year.

so vividly to scare you and worry you. we do not trust ourselves to legislate Then the bill has a little stinger on the There would be a lot of people downtown properly. So we will vote for a gag rule end of it, another sentence, which says who would start living within their into permit ourselves to be gagged and con- it does not really mean $309 billion at come. trolled so that we cannot offer any all. In fact, it says that is not to be the We have seen a rather peculiar situaamendments to certain legislation which debt ceiling. That is to be a temporary tion arise in this Congress. Most of the comes to the floor of the House, regard- ceiling. In addition to that, and I want appropriation bills for fiscal 1964 have less of how important such amendments to read the sentence, it states “because not yet been enacted. We have voted may be, or how desirable they may be, so of variations in the time of revenue re- a continuing resolution to permit the no amendments except those offered by ceipts the public debt limit as increased various departments and agencies for the Committee on Ways and Means itself. by the preceding sentence is further in- which the appropriation bills for fiscal

Mr. Speaker, the Committee on Ways creased through June 29 by $6 billion." 1964 have not been enacted to continue and Means is made up of fine gentlemen If you follow the simple rules of arith- their spending at the same rate as proand fine Members of this House, able metic and add $6 billion to $309 billion vided in the 1963 appropriation acts unMembers. No one can question that you come up with $315 billion. But try to der that year's budget. Of course, the They are good Americans; yes. But in find that figure in this bill. It is not budget for 1964 was much higher, billions my judgment, as a whole, they are not there. It is hidden in this peculiar of dollars higher, and the appropriations too much above the level of other Mem- verbiage that has been written, verbiage would be higher. So as a result, while bers of this body, as far as brilliance, that is not quite as frank to the average a lot of people complain about the slowintellect, ability, and wisdom might be mind as it might be, and I am not charg

mind as it might be, and I am not charg- ness of Congress in passing appropriaconsidered.

ing bad faith on the part of anyone. I tion bills, as an actual result of the delay Mr. Speaker, I have always resented just do not like this kind of legislation.

just do not like this kind of legislation in the passage of these appropriation the idea that only a chosen few are Why not be completely honest? Why not

Why not be completely honest? Why not bills, the departments or agencies of the capable of deciding what sort of tax leg- be frank and say you are going to in- Government have been forced to conislation, what sort of debt management crease the national debt limit, if you pass duct their activities on the 1963 level legislation, may be considered by the this bill, to $315 billion up until June 29, and are spending something like $3 bilHouse of Representatives.

1964, the end of the present fiscal year, lion less than they would if the 1964 Mr. Speaker, this is another closed or by which time you will have to come in

by which time you will have to come in appropriation bills had been enacted,

here for a further increase, and you according to the President's budget. are told; vote for the legislative package will be here, do not worry about that. I What would happen? What would that is brought to us. Do not try to predicted before, you would be back this

predicted before, you would be back this happen if this legislation were defeated ? make any changes in the bill because fall.

fall. I also predicted that last spring Within 72 hours, or perhaps even 48 or that is not according to Hoyle. That is when we had this legislation up for con- only 24 hours, you would see somebody not the way the game is played here on sideration. This is the third time this from downtown, from the Treasury DeCapitol Hill,

year, in this calendar year, bills have partment, yes, and I notice that the Mr. Speaker, I hope we will have a been here increasing the national debt White House takes quite a lot of interest vote, and I expect to ask for it. I hope limit. They will be back increasing it anymore in any legislative activity that we will have a rollcall vote on this rule, again, before long. Why? Because the goes on on Capitol Hill, whether it be on to see whether or not the Members of the administration is continuing, of course, the floor of this body, the floor of the House of Representatives want to gag deficit financing, despite all the pious other body, or in some committee or subcommittee of Congress, coming up here What road are you going to travel? The advertent error. But I am not proud of and saying, “Let us bring out a bill with a gentleman remembers that, I trust. I any vote for a gag rule. lower debt ceiling. Let us see what we wonder if we will hear the same discourse MEMBERS CANNOT DO THEIR DUTIES UNDER GAG can do to appease the Congress,” to ap- today with respect to increasing the debt

RULE pease those, if you please, who believe in ceiling and if we will see those who vote I do not consider a gag rule very a bit of economy in the conduct of our for it continue to take the road to more democratic. That is an instance of a public business, who want to eliminate profligate spending?

few denying the many an opportunity waste and extravagance. "Let us sit down Mr. BROWN of Ohio. It is the same to participate in the legislation. Each and see what can be eliminated in the old story-mañana-tomorrow—we are

one of us represents his constituents. spending program, how we can live, not going to do it tomorrow, or we are going Each owes the same obligation to his under a $285 billion debt ceiling, which to do it the next day. But we never get constituents as any other Member of this would otherwise be the permanent debt around to doing it now. They say, “We House. So why should we be denied the ceiling, but under a reasonable debt ceil- are going to do it at some time in the right of offering amendments for coning, certainly one no higher than it is at future—we are going to meet our re- sideration and debate? In other words, the present time, and perhaps even much sponsibilities, of course, but not this year why should we be stopped from offering lower.” and not the next year, but just a little

any amendment? Judge Sabath, who I think a great many good answers later on."

came from Chicago, was one of the greatcould be given here on Capitol Hill to I believe the American people are get- est men I ever knew. He was chairman those questions by the action of this ting fed up with the big spending pro- of the Committee on Rules of the House House, by the refusal of this House to go grams and the waste and extravagance for a number of years. Judge Sabath along with this piece of legislation, by and with the ever-increasing national

was not really in favor of gag rules, but not adopting the rule, and by opening debt limit, and the continuous lifting of

he was chairman of that committee and this bill so amendments can be offered to that ceiling. Three times in the year he was a good soldier. I remember some cut down the total amount that could be 1963 alone. How long-how long can

of the occasions when he was comspent. That is the money that could this go on? It is up to you. I hope the pelled to bring in a rule like this one otherwise be first borrowed and added to previous question will be voted down and here today. He would present the rule the national debt, and then later spent. that we will have an opportunity to and say, “This is a very fair rule. Plenty

If this rule were defeated and the bill amend this rule to make it an open rule, of debate and no amendments.” were opened up for amendment, that so that amendments can be offered to

That is the kind of a rule we have might be the first step. That would be this bill which will be more practical, here today-plenty of debate, no amendhelpful. The second step would be for more sensible, and more reasonable, and ments. It makes no difference how much the House to adopt an amendment to this so that we will keep our fiscal condition you talk, it will be ineffective. bill to hold down the ceiling on the na- sound. So that we will put a brake on tional debt, the amount that can be bor- Federal spending and serve notice that

I went before the Committee on Rules rowed by the Federal Government, to a

we no longer will put up with what has yesterday and asked the committee to reasonable level, in some direction to- been

happening. I hope that can be grant an open rule so that Members ward reducing the national debt in the future, in some direction toward cutting vote, and have a rollcall vote, on whether Why should anyone want to gag their done and, if not, I hope the House will could offer amendments. This is not a

complicated bill. It is very simple. present Federal spending. We will per- or not the Members want to gag themmit and encourage that if we defeat this

colleagues on a bill like this? I do not selves instead by adopting a closed rule. bill.

see why anyone should want to gag an

Finally, of course, as the only recourse How much has Federal spending been we have, if these other efforts fail, will other Member of this House. But the cut and where? How much has it been be a motion to recommit the bill back to rule, of course, is a gag rule. reduced and where? This is a situation the committee so it may rework the bill,

INCREASING THE DEBT CEILING IS UNNECESSARY that calls for action and for courage. and rewrite its language in line with the Now, I have an amendment which, if It calls, if you please, for some political temper and thought and judgment of

temper and thought and judgment of adopted, would make this bill unnecesindependence from those who want to this House.

sary. You know, the way the national spend, from those who believe in big But if not, and if the motion to re- debt is now counted, it contains more spending, and in the old story of tax and commit should fail, I for one, and I hope than $33 billions of debt obligations tax and tax, spend and spend and spend, every other Member of the House who which are owned by the Government itand elect and elect and elect. We have

We have believes in fiscal responsibility, will vote self and is not actually outstanding several billion dollars' worth of new legis- against this measure so that we will

debt. That amount should not be in lation pending before the House now have an opportunity to later pass on a the national debt at all. Therefore, if that will mean an increase in National new less costly measure. I can assure my amendment is adopted, we will not and Federal expenditures far above the you, and I predict with confidence, that need this bill. We will not need to inincreases ever predicted by the President it will be brought to the House within a crease the ceiling on the national debt. and by his advisers and they all pre- few short hours after we reject this par- If you do not count Government obligadict we will have further deficits next ticular bill.

tions that have already been paid once, year, and, of course, we will, and we Mr. Speaker, I reserve the balance of the present debt ceiling is all that is will have them the year after, and con- my time.

needed. How many times do you want tinue to have them, until the people's Mr. BOLLING. Mr. Speaker, I yield

Mr. Speaker, I yield the people to pay their debts? Do you representatives in Congress assembled 10 minutes to the gentleman from Texas want them to pay them twice, 3 times, somehow or other gain the courage and [Mr. PATMAN).

10 times? How many Members of the fortitude to stand up and face this Mr. PATMAN. Mr. Speaker, I ask

Mr. Speaker, I ask Congress will feel proud of the fact issue because if we do not do it our- unanimous consent to revise and extend that when they go back to their conselves, sooner or later, the natural laws my remarks and include extraneous stituents they will tell them, “Yes, I of economics will compel us to face these matter.

voted for the national debt increase bill issues, perhaps, in a way that may bring The SPEAKER. Is there objection of $315 billion. It would not have been dangerous and drastic changes in the to the request of the gentleman from necessary to pass that bill, if amendfuture of this Republic. Texas?

ment has been allowed, but the 'gag Mr. GROSS. Mr. Speaker, will the There was no objection.

rule' was invoked, and we could not gentleman yield?

Mr. PATMAN. Mr. Speaker, I have amend the bill so we just had to vote Mr. BROWN of Ohio. I commend the voted for every debt limit increase that for the whole amount” gentleman from Ohio for another fine was necessary. In the past I have even We have plenty of time here in Constatement on this issue. I yield to the voted for some gag rules, when I felt gress to consider these things. We are gentleman.

that the bill presented was so compli- not rushed. There is no reason why we Mr. GROSS. When the tax reduc- cated that the committee was in a better should have a closed rule. tion bill was before the House, we heard position to pass on it and writing legis- I want to tell you about the amendextended discourse on the subject of— lation on the floor would likely result in ment I have.

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