disposable abroad in the year 1802-3, upon the supposition of peace continuing; but I then also stated, that as the law had decided, that the surplus revenue should be applicable, in the first instance, to the purchase of investment, it was not till that investment reached Europe and was realised, that the surplus, so to exist, could be applied, either to the reduction of debt, or the payment of the participation to the public. The month of July 1804 was then mentioned as the period when the Company would be prepared, if war did not intervene, to account with the public for that sum. It was explained, in a former debate, why, on the balance of last year's account, no such payment is now due; and it also was shewn, that the net surplus abroad in that year, after pay ment of all charges, interest of debt included, would not have fallen short of 1,300,0001. had peace continued. It appears, therefore, that parliament was distinctly abprised from the first, of the circumstances on which this pay ment must depend; and I am by no means answerable, in consequence of any thing I then said, for a temporary interruption of this resource, which has been subsequently occasioned by the war, and by the unfavourable sales at home. With these materials, viz. a clear surplus of 1,000,000l. in peace and 500,000l. in war, applicable to the reduction of debt, the plan proposed to liquidate debt abroad, to the annual amount of 2,000,000l. in peace, and in war to an amount not exceeding 1,000,000l. The practicability of executing the plan in peace (these materials being forth coming) depended further on the Company being enabled, by gradually adding to their capital, to raise annually in Europe such a sum, as, with the progressive savings of interest, would complete the sinking fund, in each year, to the required amount —No difficulty could have occurred in doing so, to the proposed extent, had In war it was peace continued. presumed, in addition to the 500,000l. applicable from the net proceeds, that partly from repayments from the public, and partly from an increased issue of bonds, the fund, for the reduction of debt, might have been carried beyond the half million.—If, from the recurrence of war in Europe, coupled with the heavy pressure of a contest with the Mahrattas, the surplus net proceeds have been in a greater degree absorbed than there was reason to appre hend at the time; if from the war bearing upon the price of all descriptions of public securities in the market at home, it has become disadvantageous to add to the Company's capital, whilst the price of their stock, in common with all others, is so much depressed; and if, from our communication with the continent, at the outset of the war, being materially embarrassed, if not interrupted, and also, from the first effects of the high duties, imposed on the Company's imports in the course of the last session, their sales at home, in amount as well as in price, have been considerably affected; the house will not be surprised, if the concurrence of all these unfavourable causes should impede, if not suspend, the operation of the plan in question. I trust, however, that as far as the sales at home, and the peculiarly heavy expences of the war abroad are are concerned, we may from the present moment, indulge better hopes, peace having been actually concluded with the Mah rattas, and the impediments to our sales not being, it is to be presumed, in nature permanent; but having recalled to the recol. lection of the house the principal points on which this imports ant question must hinge, gentle men will feel, that the detail will be more satisfactorily discussed in a future year, when advices shall have been received of the orders having reached India, and of the proceedings of the supreme government thereupon.-Upon the whole, I trust, the several accounts I shall now move for, accompanied by the explanations I have thus had an opportunity of submitting to the house, will satisfy parliament and the public: 1st, Of the peculiar and highly commendable accuracy, observable in the estimates picpared by the officers of the East-India Company, both under the heads of revenue and charge, trying them by the test of the actual accounts for the same year, after the whole receipt and expenditure had been precisely ascertained, and only making a reasonable allowance for extraordinary expence, occasioned by events which, from their nature, could not have been either foreseen or calculated upon, when the estimates were prepared. 24, That none of the assurances given to parlament on the subject of Indian finance, it fairly stated and correctly understood, have been disproved by the event; on the contrary, that it is manifest, from the revenues having more than covered the teritorial expendis ture, during ten years of the most expensive war, that every espcc tation of aid to the public finan the the resources of India in a period of peace, as contrasted with one of war. They will have now before them a faithful statement of the estimates, and the result of the last ten years; and I trust these documents are not less calculated to justify the official statements which have been annually submitted to their notice, than to inspire the empire at home with a just confidence in the extent and stability of our Indian resources. I shall now, Sir, conclude with moving, that there be laid before the house, 1st, "An account, shewing the estimated and actual revenues and charges in India, with the results of ten years, from 1793-4 to 1802-3, after deducting payments on account of interest or debts, and supply to Bencoolen, &c. exhibiting likewise the decrease or increase of the debts, distinguishing each year." 2d. "An estimate of profit and loss on the Company's sales in England and other profits for ten years, ending 1st March, 1804, with other payments in Eng land deducted therefrom, distinguishing each year, and distinguishing, as far as may be, such charges as are of a political, from those that are of a commercial nature; and also, distinguishing the India from the China açcount." 3." An account of the total amount of the company's debts and assets abroad and at home, including China, the former from April, 1793, to April, 1803, and the latter from March, 1794, to March, 1804, both inclusive, distinguishing each year." Mr. JOHNSTONE said, that notwithstanding all the statements made by the Noble Lord, he could not but contend, that the whole shewed that every thing he had advanced on the subject was strictly true. After the Noble Lord had made his annual statement in the form of an Indian budget, he now came forward with a new set of accounts unknown to any one but himself, with which he most ingeniously pretended to combat arguments urged against the old ones. He thought such a mode of proceeding was unparlia mentary and uncandid. It was also unprecedented, except in one instance, and that was of his predecessor, who came to the house and argued strenuously from a letter of the Duke of York, which he had in his pocket, and which nobody had seen but himself. He maintained, that the florid pictures of the state of the Company's affairs which had been drawn formerly by the predecessor of the Noble Lord, and was now presented to the house by the Noble Lord himself, was fallacious, and consequently delusive to that house, and to the public. When these statements were annually given in to parliament, the same promises of reduction of debt and increase of revenue above the expenditure were uniformly made by the person, whoever he was, whose duty it was to open the India budget to the house. The Noble Lord had evidently chang ed his ground, by bringin forward new statements for ten years after he had given in the usual annual accounts. He thought, therefore, that the Noble Lord should perform the promises which he had already made, and make good his former estimates, before he laid any new accounts before parliament. Lord CASTLEREAGH denied, that in what he had said he was either unparliamentary or uncandid, He would have thought he was uncandid, it he had moved for the accounts without explaining why he The CHANCELLOR of the ExCHEQUER said, he should only trouble the house with a very few words. His noble friend (Lord Melville) had stated, that his expectations respecting the participation were not likely to be disappointed, unless there should be a war on the Continent; but he had said, at the same time, that to a certain extent they would. It was for the house, therefore, to consider how far circumstances had happened, which had a tendency to affect materially the Company's revenues. All the declarations and promises of Lord Melville were made expressly exclusive of a war in India. It was now ten years since they were made, and there had been a rebellion fully as expensive as a war; besides the different expe ditions fitted out by the Company in aid of the public service, there was the expedition to Manilia, and the expedition to Egypt, the last of which cost upwards of two millions, and for both of which the Company have an unsettled account and claim against the public. The present object of his noble friend was not to bring forward new accounts. It arose from the gentlemen opposite hav ing taken occasion to compare the different accounts of ten years, and to urge them in argument, as best suited their purpose. His noble friend wished for such an account as would give a recapitulation, in a clear point of view, of the different accounts it referred to. he had done so. The gentlemen tion respecting him would no more opposite had all along complained be resorted to. of the inaccuracy of the accounts, and he wished to have one where the whole might be seen together, and errors, if any there be, more easily detected. His lordship, in explanation, then recapitulated several of his former statements. Mr. WALLACE begged leave to say a very few words, relative to one assertion which had been made of the Noble Lord's predecessor having said, that at a par ticular time the public had a right to a participation of the Company's revenues, under all circumstances, whether there was war, or whe ther there was peace. He had taken the trouble to investigate this point, and he found, on referring to a speech of the Noble Lord's predecessor, which he delivered in 1796, in which he then referred to another speech made by him in 1794, these words, "it may be asked, if there be such improvement in the company's revenues, why does not the public participate?" He answer. ed, because no such promise was made but under certain conditions; and in his speech of 1794, he had expressly excepted the interference of war. He had, in short, uniformly contended, that the participation in a considerable degree depended on the continuance of peace. He was surprised, he said, the honourable gentle man should maintain the contraty; it was impossible the Noble Lord should have used such an argument as, that war or peace would make no difference in the affairs of the Company. He was a man of too much good sense to entertain such an idea for a moment, and he hoped that asser Mr. PRINSEP then rose and entered into a long detail on the state of India affairs for several years past. His remarks were were directed not only to the policy, but the commerce of the Company in its different relations. They were so minute and circumstantial, however, and so closely connected with the history of the Company, that we cannot pretend to enter into them at any length. He particularly stated, that the sanguine hopes held out to parliament and to the country, of the Company's being no only able in time to defray their territorial expences, but to contribute also to the strength and resources of this country, had been hitherto illusory. The language used by the Noble Lord's predecessor had been as flattering as that of the noble lord possibly could be. When that noble lord presided at the head of India affairs, he had made a supposition, that even with fifteen millions of debt, the affairs of the Company might be conducted with advantage. This, the honourable gentleman said, had merely been stated as a supposition, and of what might be done in case of the worst, but not with any idea that the debt would ever amount so high. What conclusion, then, he asked, must we form now that the debt is accumulated to a much greater sum, and is so far beyond an amount which that noble lord had calculated on as the highest possible? If in the course of ten years we had increased the debt from seven to twenty-one millions, what expectations could we form of diminution in future? The Noble Lord's predecessor had looked forward to a period of 10 years, and had given a statement of what he thought would then be the case; but if they might judge from facts, he had been very much mistaken indeed. The Noble Lord now at .1 the head of India affairs, the honourable Member thought, was proceeding in nearly a similar manner; he was holding up hopes to the house which, if any judg ment might be formed from the past, would never be realized. It was not his design, however, to attach any particular blame to the measure now proposed by the motion before the house. The debt of the government formed a part of the assets, but he would have had those, he contended, independently of that debt. It was not his design to move for any committee of inquiry; he wished only for farther explanation, which was certainly not by any means unparliamentary. He did not wish either that it should be understood as his opinion, that the yalidity of the Company's credit was not good. On the contrary, he looked forward to years of prosperity. If properly conducted, he thought India presented a glorious prospect. It was able, as the Noble Lord had truly said, to support its own wars; and though it created a million of debt annually, it was still productive. of very great advantages. The commercial returns, however, to this country he thought were considered as an object of too great importance. There was no policy, he insisted, in increasing those returns, in many instances, to a useless degree, by the system of borrowing in India. To proportion the commerce to the actual capital, would be every way more advantageous, as by this means also more attention could be paid to the carrying trade, which he thought the most profitable. Instead of this, however, the carrying trade was discouraged, or at least was permitted to go into |