far his school has been able to stay in operation by means of committed grants from three foundations and gifts, and that the school will be able to remain solvent in this manner for approximately 4 years. However, the deficit which is anticipated by 1972 can be met only through Government support of the kind proposed by this bill plus support from private foundations which is not yet committed. The alternative to such support, Dr. Ebaugh states eloquently in these terms:

Now if we are to remain financially solvent, we could triple our tuition. This is unthinkable. We could decrease the number of our faculty and hence the quality of our education. This is also unthinkable. Or we could decrease the number of students which would be completely against the interests of the Nation. The answer would lie, it seems

to me, in the proposed grants in aid under the bill 3141 to supplement the operating budget of the school *** and to continue to solicit gifts and foundation support for our operation.

Many of these authors, including Vice President HUMPHREY while he was a Member of the other body, introduced legislation to extend the coverage of this act to the allied profession of veterinary medicine starting in the 86th Congress, 87th, 88th, and the current Congress.

It is my understanding that reports from the Bureau of the Budget are imminent on the legislation which we have all jointly coauthored and for that reason I do not intend to offer an amendment at this time to perhaps prematurely expand the coverage of the act.

The national need for additional veterinarians is patent.

NATIONAL NEED FOR VETERINARIANS

The nationwide demand for veterinar

Dr. Douglas M. Surgenor, dean of the School of Medicine, State University of New York at Buffalo, made the following statement before my committee:

At Buffalo, we find that our resources,

University of New York, are completely committed to catching up in faculty strength for our basic program, and to related matters, with the result that we simply cannot

fund new and important curriculum changes that the faculty has already agreed to. For example, we have developed a plan to provide a better educational transition between the basic science years and the clinical years of the medical curriculum. Tentatively entitled "Mechanisms and Manifestations of Disease," this course involves a new approach in which a team of physicians and scientists will introduce the medical student to the basic principles of clinical medicine. It is this kind of improvement in the curriculum

which would be greatly expedited by the support envisioned in the bill. I could name several other areas of urgent need in my school which would also be aided by new Federal support.

Madam Chairman, my State of Arkansas is not going to get anything from this for its medical school, so I have nothing personal involved so far as my State is concerned. Our medical school is not one of those in trouble. It will get its share under the general basic improvement grants, but my own State does not have a school in serious trouble. We have a fairly new set-up there, and a very fine one of which we are proud. There are some schools in the Nation we are trying to save.

Therefore I urge, Madam Chairman, that the amendment not be approved. Mr. LEGGETT. Madam Chairman, I move to strike the last word.

Madam Chairman, I wish to point up to the committee that there is pending now before the Interstate and Foreign Commerce Committee legislation to expand the scope of the pending bill to the

allied field of veterinary medicine.

Authors of this legislation, other than myself, are Congressman ANDREWS of Alabama, Congressman STEPHENS of Georgia, Congressman ANDREWs of North Dakota, Congressman JOHNSON of Oklahoma, Congressman STEED of Oklahoma, Congressman ROBISON of New York,

numerous nationwide surveys on the

need for veterinarians:

The demand for veterinarians is at an all

time high and is constantly growing. The best estimates based on current needs indicate that the number of veterinarians in the country should be trebled by 1980. This means that over 40,000 new veterinarians must be graduated in the next 20 years. It means that in order to accomplish this the capacity of all the present veterinary medical colleges must be doubled and at least five new veterinary medical colleges established immediately.

to expand the enrollment of veterinary Although every effort has been made medical colleges throughout the country, very little expansion can be accomplished without constructing new classrooms and laboratories for these programs. The very high cost of establishing a school of veterinary medicine mitigates against the establishment of the vitally needed new schools.

There are only 18 schools of veterinary medicine in the entire country. Veterinary medical schools are, therefore, truly national resources. There are only 3 schools that serve the entire 12 Western States. Consequently it seems more than appropriate that universities having veterinary medical schools receive some national support to maintain their programs.

VETERINARY MEDICINE'S CONTRIBUTION TO
HUMAN HEALTH AND WELFARE

Veterinary medicine makes significant contributions to the health and welfare of all the people of the country. Veterinary medicine is the science that deals with diseases of all the kinds of animals cludes not only the food-producing and draft animals, but also pet animals, zoo animals, wild animals, and laboratory animals used for research. Veterinarians have been given primary responsibility to control the host of animal diseases that are transmissible to people.

useful to man. All kinds of animals in

diseases that can affect people. This is particularly true of the many exotic pets that Americans are currently so interested in. Unless trained veterinarians are available throughout the Nation to minister to the health needs of all these kinds of animals, including pets, great numbers of people will be exposed to needless pain and suffering from animal diseases.

A great number of veterinarians are needed to care for the vast numbers of animals used in biological and medical research. Much of the medical research in the Nation today is conducted on animals. A great deal of this research is not truly significant because it has been conducted on animals afflicted with various diseases. Consequently the veterirole in human health and welfare by narian plays a most important indirect maintaining the health of these animals. maintaining the health of these animals.

Without any doubt, the greatest contribution made by veterinary medical science to human health is through re

search which contributes to our understanding of disease and disease processes. Most of the diseases that affect people also occur in some species of animal. Many of these animals are much better suited for research on these diseases than are people. Consequently the veterinarian, skilled in animal biology and medicine, has been placed in a key position to make significant contributions to all of medical science. Many of his findings relate as directly to human welfare as they do to the immediate welfare of animals. Veterinarians in all aspects of professional activities from practice to basic research, make these kinds of contributions.

The veterinarian is a unique medical scientist. No other group of biological is trained to do. He is a vitally needed and medical scientists can do what he medical scientist. The health and welfare of the people to no small extent depend upon the effectiveness of the service that he provides to the community.

DEMANDS FOR VETERINARY MEDICAL EDUCATION

At the University of California at Davis, Calif., in my congressional district, by the end of the current year approximately 5,000 students will have written letters to the dean's office requesting information on a veterinary medical education. They already have received over 400 completed applications from students who have completed their undergraduate education and wish to continue in veterinary medicine. They accept approximately 50 students in each class. This means that the vast majority of these young men and women must change their objectives and go into some other profession or field. This is true even though the demands for graduated veterinarians exceeds the supply in California by at least five times. It is indeed a tragic situation that so few truly qualified people may enter a profession which

provides society with such important service merely because educational facilities are not adequate to handle them.

DEMAND FOR VETERINARIANS

Last year approximately 250 positions were available for veterinarians in the

State. This included requests for individuals in laboratory animal medicine, animal disease control programs for State, municipal and Federal Government, the California board of health's research and zoonoses control program, research and teaching positions on the various campuses of the University of California, medical research organizations, the Veterans' Administration, the Bureau of Wildlife and Fisheries, as well as many opportunities in private practice.

Out of the 43 veterinarians that graduated from our school last year, 8 currently are in the armed services, 5 have gone directly into research and research

training programs, for example, in can

cer research at the McArdle Institute at Madison, Wis.; University of Chicago's Biochemistry Department; U.S. Public Health Service's Rocky Mountain Laboratory; the California Department of Public Health and the University of California. Two are in clinical internship programs to prepare themselves for academic careers in veterinary medical science, two have accepted positions in fish disease programs, while the others are in internships that may eventually lead to private practice. Most of our graduates go into positions which contribute to the general health and welfare of the populace.

We must import nearly 75 percent of the veterinarians who go to work each year in our State. If recent trends on immigration of veterinarians is a true in

dication of the future, the number of veterinarians immigrating will be reduced in the years ahead.

GRADUATE EDUCATION

There is a very strong demand for graduate education in veterinary medical science. Individuals completing graduate education go into the schools and colleges to teach and conduct research in many aspects of veterinary medicine. There is a critical and important shortage of qualified teachers and researchers. Support and expansion of the graduate program is essential if we hope to supply teachers and researchers vitally needed by the Nation.

THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA

The University of California is currently embarking on a major veterinary medical expansion program. They hope to expand the program of the school so that they may eventually accept 120 veterinary medical students each year and provide graduate education for over 200. In order to do this, however, we must expand our physical plant tremendously, We have estimated that this will cost between $20 and $30 million. It is not possible to do this with funds available from State sources. Federal support for veterinary medical education is vitally

needed.

RELATIONSHIP TO THE MEDICAL SCHOOL AT UCD A new medical school soon will be established at the University of California at Davis. It is the fond hope of the university that the School of Veterinary Medicine and School of Human Medicine will be closely related. There is no doubt that each can contribute significantly to the quality and efficiency of the program

of the other. They are hopeful that close integration may be accomplished so that both veterinary medicine and human medicine will profit from the association. These two branches of medicine have too long been separated. It is their hope that they will be able to bring them together.

In summary, I would respectfully request that the chairman of the Committee on Interstate and Foreign Commerce exercise every effort to see that this very important companion legislation passed out of committee and brought to the floor of the Congress with the same support as has been given to the pending bill.

is

The CHAIRMAN. The question is on

passed. One of the greatest disappointments I predict will be on July 1 of next year when these great numbers of people who are eligible for hospital and nursing home care will try to get services that are not available. That is the reason why I am supporting this bill with the exception of this section, part F, scholarship grants. If this amendment which I will offer to remove the scholarships grant provisions is not adopted, I will feel forced to vote against the entire bill.

AMENDMENT OFFERED BY MR. JONES OF
MISSOURI

Madam Chairman, if I may, I would

man from Minnesota [Mr. QUIE].

The amendment was rejected. Mr. JONES of Missouri. Madam Chairman, I move to strike out the last word.

Madam Chairman, I am not a prophet

of doom and gloom, but I think we need to call attention to some things that are happening. I read some excerpts from the current issue of U.S. News & World Report:

Creeping rise in prices, gaining some momentum, is a cause of reviving official concern about inflation pressures; is influencing money policies.

Prices of commodities, overall, are in a continuing rise. Industrial products, in turn, begin to rise with wage costs and costs of materials.

Skilled workers are in short supply now. Unemployment of men over age 20 is down to 3.1 percent; of men over age 25 is down to 2.8 percent.

The base is there for an upward price push.

It's against that background that cash spending of Government is set.

In this year, ending June 30 next, Federal spending of cash will rise by about $7.8 billion to above $130 billion. Probable deficit: $5.6 billion.

Next year, beginning July 1, cash spending will rise about $13 billion to above $143 billion, up $20.7 billion in 2 years. Probable deficit: $8.1 billion. That's without any big increase in arms spending for war in Vietnam. Big rise ahead is to be in welfare programs of many and proliferating kinds.

I would predicate the statement I am read: In this bill we are setting up a new about to make on the statement I have program which goes about giving away money that we do not have in order to accomplish a purpose for which the giving of that money is not necessary. I am referring to the scholarship grants provided in this bill for the first time. I think what we are trying to do by offering grants, gifts, doles, welfare, or whatever else you want to call it, to a young man just because he is ambitious to become a doctor is helping to destroy his self-respect by giving him this help when there are available enough scholarships from outside the Government and enough loans are available both from the Government and from outside the Government to enable any young person who has the ability, the intellect, and ambition to fill every medical college that is now existent or which will be provided under the expanded program in this bill. We need more doctors. I said that at the time that the medicare bill was

The Clerk read as follows:

Amendment offered by Mr. JONES of Missouri: On page 22, line 12, strike out line 12 and all that follows on page 22, page 23, page 24, and lines 1 through 12 on page 25.

Mr. JONES of Missouri. Madam

Chairman, I think I have explained the purpose of this amendment, but I should like to go into further detail. This is not a great amount of money as compared with the other features of the bill. The bill itself, of course, is going to provide close to $1 billion. So this is not a large item.

I am offering this amendment as a matter of principle. I feel that we are not going to recruit or entice another person into the medical schools or schools of related professions that are provided in this bill by offering this money. I think any young man or young woman who wants to enter these professions would welcome the opportunity to get a loan that they would be glad to repay. I think we are destroying some of the initiative and self-respect of these people whom we are making wards of the Government, so to speak, by offering these grants.

This money comes from the taxpayers. I do not think anybody here will disagree with me when I say that of all the professions there is none that has a greater potential for earnings than the medical profession. medical profession. Many doctors have made sacrifices, but they had a goal that they could look forward to and they could see not only the good that they were going to do, but also the financial security at the end of that time.

The report speaks of the fact that it costs from $20,000 to $30,000 for the 8 to 12 years that a person would have to be in school. By the time he is out of school, in 3 or 4, or at most 5 years, he will be making more money than that in any one year.

I think most of us recognize that the

young man who comes out of a medical school today with a diploma, who is ready to hang up his shingle as an M.D., has the certainty that he is going to earn at least $1,000 a month to start with and in the year following it will be more than that.

There is another thing about this bill that was brought out by the gentleman from New Jersey awhile ago, and that is the fact that we have no requirements concerning this grant that we give this person to go to a medical school. We have no assurance that he is even going

to continue in the practice of medicine in this country. At least we should expect, if we are going to give him some money, that he have a requirement and an obligation to go to some section of the country where there is not sufficient medical service now. They do that under the teachers program. We say that if they are going to teach school we will forgive a part of the loan. Here we are giving them a grant with no strings attached. I think that is entirely wrong. I see no need for it, because it means that we are just throwing the money away. For that reason I think the amendment should be agreed to.

Mr. HARRIS. Madam Chairman, I rise in opposition to the amendment. I hope the amendment will not be agreed to. We have tried to work out a practical and realistic program to meet the needs in this area. If I believed that what the gentleman from Missouri [Mr. JONES] has said was the fact, I would have a different point of view. I am sure the gentleman believes on the basis of the information that he has, that the statements he recounted here are true. But those are not the facts as we understand them.

The facts are that we have, through programs beginning a good many years ago, through the National Science Foundation and now NASA and the National Defense Education Act provided a great incentive to many of the better students. Of course, we needed scientists. All of us remember that we became concerned about scientists several years ago because we thought Russia was moving ahead of us in that field. And the first thing we knew, we had many people going into that field, so that the better class of students have been going into other fields and they have not been keeping up in the field of medicine, dentistry, and the other health professions.

The information which we developed throughout the course of the hearings and which came to us indicated that there are innumerable students that would be interested in going into the field of medicine if they could just see a way to afford it.

Madam Chairman, it takes 10 years to make a doctor, at high cost. So, the student gets beyond the capability of his family many times. Many of these medical students, as is well knowneveryone knows it-get married and have their own family. They give up in despair, saying "There is no way I can get into the field of medicine, because it takes too long; I am obligated to my family; I cannot do it and therefore I am going to do something else."

Madam Chairman, what we are trying to do is to use this method of approach here where we say to a given school, "If you perform a service here, we will give you some help and assistance and incentive for doing it." So, we take the figure of $2,000 and one-tenth of the total medical students of the school and multiply these two amounts, and that is the amount that that particular school has allocated to it from this program to apply on scholarships.

Now, Madam Chairman, that institution then has within the framework of that total amount certain parts of it to

allocate-maybe $500 or maybe $2,500to a worthy and needy student. In this way with loans, foundation grants, and other help they may get applications other help they may get applications from many of these students. from many of these students. This will help the institution improve the quality of students that comes to the school for that purpose.

Mr. JONES of Missouri. Madam Chairman, will the gentleman yield? Mr. HARRIS. I am glad to yield to the gentleman from Missouri.

Mr. JONES of Missouri. Does the gentleman from Arkansas know of any worthy student who could not obtain a loan for that same purpose?

Mr. HARRIS. Our information comes to us from the medical schools who screen the students themselves, the people who do the actual basic work. They tell us that they have many students tell us that they have many students that come to them with a high academic that come to them with a high academic rating but when they look at that 10 years ahead of them and the high cost years ahead of them and the high cost involved, they pass up medical school.

Yes, we have information that there are innumerable students that come within that category.

Madam Chairman, I hope the Committee will not approve this amendment.

Mr. CAHILL. Madam Chairman, I move to strike the requisite number of move to strike the requisite number of words.

Madam Chairman and Members of the Committee, I have asked for this time not because I fully agree with the gentlenot because I fully agree with the gentleman from Missouri [Mr. JONES] that the entire section should be stricken, but because I disagree with the distinguished cause I disagree with the distinguished chairman of the committee as to the implementation of this most desirable section providing scholarships.

Madam Chairman, during the general debate, I pointed out that in this legislation there are no criteria established as to what is a needy boy; there are no criteria established as to what is a bright boy. Each individual medical school in this country under this bill has a right to establish what is a needy boy and what is a bright boy.

There is nothing in this legislation that requires a written examination. There is nothing in this bill, as I understand is nothing in this bill, as I understand it, that provides as to whether a young man has to be a member of a family that qualifies, for example, under the poverty program, and most importantly, there is nothing in this legislation as I read it which makes this a national criteria. In other words, it might be different in New Jersey than it is in Missouri or than it is in Arkansas.

I do not know of anything in this bill which requires any recipient of a scholarship to do one thing. Most recipients of a scholarship either have to perform some services around the school, some have to play football, some have to answer the telephone, some have to wait on tables, but there is nothing in this bill that requires them to work in the labthat requires them to work in the laboratories of the medical school, for instance or to perform any task whatsoever, the recipients do not have to pay the ever, the recipients do not have to pay the money back, and most important, they do not even have to practice medicine in the United States of America. After they have received their full education they can leave the medical profession they can leave the medical profession

and enter the teaching profession or work for some of the drug companies in this country. There is nothing that says they have to go into any part of this country where there is an acute need of doctors and perform any services. Those are my objections, and when the proper time comes I intend to offer an amendment which I hope will correct this. I believe scholarships are necessary, I think they are good, but I object to the criteria.

Mr. HARRIS. Madam Chairman, will the gentleman yield?

Mr. CAHILL. I yield to the gentleman from Arkansas.

Mr. HARRIS. I would like to remind the gentleman that committees that we maintain in the Congress, so far as I know, have been very insistent that the matter of its administration, its curriculum, the handling of students and the applications for entrance and everything be left to the educational institution within the States. We have consistently adhered to that policy and, certainly, I do not think we should go beyond what we have already provided for the institutions themselves.

Mr. CAHILL. As I understand it, what we are doing here is granting $2,500 a year to 10 percent of the pupils of the school-an outright grant. There would be nothing as I read it that a medical school must determine as to what a needy student is. Perhaps he could be the son of a medical man who had passed away. If in the opinion of the adminstrators of the medical school this boy is a needy boy under this legislation as I read it he would get a scholarship. As I read the legislation a boy has to be enrolled in the medical school first before he can even be eligible. So, if that is the case, how can the boy get in if he has no finances prior to acceptance. Under this bill, before he gets a scholarship he must be enrolled before he is eligible. How ridiculous.

The CHAIRMAN. The time of the gentleman from New Jersey has expired.

(By unanimous consent (at the request of Mr. HARRIS), Mr. CAHILL was allowed to proceed for 3 additional minutes.)

Mr. HARRIS. We provide a lumpsum-a total amount under the formula-which goes to a given school. We leave it as the responsibility of that school to determine that these criteria and standards are met, that a particular student is a needy student, that he cannot meet his costs from other sources. I believe we have a built-in criterion here in keeping with the concept that we are trying to provide assistance, and at the same time leaving with the recipient institution the running of that school and determining what students are eligible, and on what basis they are accepted.

Mr. CAHILL. If I may respond to the gentleman, there is nothing spelled out in here which binds any school anywhere in the country as to what is a minimum. For example, a boy could come from a family where the father is a postal worker, or a Member of Congress, and if in the opinion of the medical school that boy came from a needy family that school would have every right in the

world under this legislation to award him a scholarship.

I am not saying it will happen. I am just saying there is nothing spelled out in this bill. So that we are giving every administrator of every medical school in this country an opportunity to hand out scholarships to 10 percent of the student body on any basis he pleases.

Mr. HARRIS. Madam Chairman, in view of the fact that there is other legislation on the program for today, I ask unanimous consent that debate on this amendment cease in 5 minutes.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there objection to the request of the gentleman from Arkansas?

There was no objection.

Mr. JOELSON. Madam Chairman, I move to strike out the last word.

Madam Chairman, I have been listening with interest to the explanation of the distinguished chairman in which he said there are many potential doctors who would be discouraged because they would get a loan that they would have to pay back and they might not pursue a medical education unless they got a grant. It seems to me, if this is the type of motivation a young person has and if he has this little zeal to become a doctor, I think the medical profession could well do without him because he would be better advised to open a store some place.

I think that doctors are widely known to make a good income and if we had a general grant program for educational purposes, I would not be constrained to object to providing one for doctors. Under our National Defense Education Act, however, we do not have grants in these fields and we are training people without the economic potential, training people who might for instance go into forestry or many other professions where they will be making very little money and we require them to pay back. I must say it escapes me why we should favor a doctor who will be making big money and not ask him to pay back when we are asking the student who will be going into a rather limited profession financially to

floor of the House who received the benefit of that program and if that program had not been made available to them, where would they have been? We are not doing any more for the doctors to meet the needs than we have done for other people.

Mr. JOELSON. I am sure if the gentleman would limit the grant program to GI's even the gentleman from Missouri [Mr. JONES] would support it.

Mr. CAHILL. Madam Chairman, will the gentleman yield?

Mr. JOELSON. I yield to the gentleman from New Jersey.

Mr. CAHILL. I would like to have the gentleman's observation as to what he believes would be the attitude of 90 percent of the students of the medical schools who do not receive scholarships but who either receive loans which they must pay back or who are working part time; or perhaps whose parents are working two jobs to send them to medical school. What does the gentleman think this will do when 10 percent get scholarships and others are compelled to pay the money back?

Mr. JOELSON. The gentleman has answered the question by merely formulating it. I am sure they would be very unhappy.

Mr. CAHILL. Does not the gentleman then believe that whatever criteria or whatever norm is established by the medical school, there will be an effort in the following year to increase it upward so that perhaps another 10 percent can qualify? And so on, ad infinitum, until we would find the Government giving we would find the Government giving out scholarships to all medical students. Mr. JOELSON. I should not be surprised.

Mr. SPRINGER. Madam Chairman, will the gentleman yield?

Mr. JOELSON. I yield to the gentleman from Illinois.

do otherwise.

Mr. HARRIS. I would not want anyone to get the erroneous impression that the door is open here for scholarships that is not the case. You pay students going to an institution of higher learning and he gets his basic college training. Under the programs we have now, if he wants to go on in the field of science, he has a grant made available to him. That student is favored under this program just as much as we are trying to do here for a scholarship provision for doctors, to encourage them to go no additional years at a cost that is much greater than in any other profession that he might undertake to get into. What we are trying to do is to encourage people with a high IQ or with the intellectual ability to be interested in it. Now you talk about favoritism. We all know we wanted to do something for our GI's and we provided a GI program for them. I venture to say there are people on the

What we are trying to do is to equalize the situation.

When the time comes, the gentleman from Minnesota [Mr. QUIE] will offer an amendment to provide that this will go "only to students from low income families who, without such financial assist ance could not pursue”—and so on. intend to support that amendment.

I

The CHAIRMAN. All time has ex

"awarded," strike out all of line 16, and on line 17 strike out the words "financial assistance in pursuing" and insert in lieu thereof who, without such financial assistance could "only to students from low income families not pursue"

Mr. QUIE. Madam Chairman, the purpose of this amendment is to change the wording so that we will make absolutely certain what I understand to be the intent of the committee, judging from the report; that is, only the young people with such low incomes, or who come from such low income families, that they cannot find the money to go to a medical school, will receive these scholarships.

a

This language would limit the aid to those, and it would be in conformity with the efforts we made in what we call the economic opportunity grants, which were in the bill that came before the House last week from the Education and Labor Committee. Those grants will go only to the exceptionally needy students who could not go to college without that kind of special grant even though they could get loans.

The purpose of my amendment is to make this bill conform in its purpose to reach the exceptionally needy medical students as the purpose of the Higher Education Act was to reach the exceptionally needy undergraduate.

Mr. HARRIS. Madam Chairman, will the gentleman yield?

Mr. QUIE. I yield to the gentleman from Arkansas.

Mr. HARRIS. Do I correctly understand that the language would read as follows:

(2) Scholarships from grants under subsection (a) for any school year shall be awarded only to students from low income families who, without such financial assistance, could not pursue a course of study at the school for such year.

Mr. QUIE. That is correct.

Mr. HARRIS. Would the gentleman have in mind that this would require a needs test, as has been acknowledged in connection with other programs and in

other discussions?

The question was taken; and on a division (demanded by Mr. JONES of Missouri) there were-ayes, 21, noes, 69. So the amendment was rejected.

AMENDMENT OFFERED BY MR. QUIE

understood that the institution itself would make the decision?

Mr. QUIE. Each medical institution would make that decision, and they would know from the law if my amendment is adopted and the regulations set up by the Surgeon General.

The Clerk read as follows:

Amendment offered by Mr. QUIE: On page 24, line 15, strike out all after the word

with whom I had a chance to discuss this, and we are willing to accept the gentleman's amendment.

Mr. QUIE. I thank the gentleman.

Mr. CURTIS. Madam Chairman, will the gentleman yield?

Mr. QUIE. I am glad to yield to the gentleman.

Mr. CURTIS. I certainly thank the gentleman. There are several questions I would like to ask, and before the vote on this amendment I hope I will have an opportunity to take a few minutes to ask some questions and raise some points. Mr. NELSEN. Madam Chairman, will the gentleman yield?

Mr. QUIE. I am glad to yield to my colleague from Minnesota.

Mr. NELSEN. I wish to point out that the amendment that the gentleman offers is in keeping with what the intent of the committee really is. I think it is a service to the committee and to this House that he spells it out as he does in the language which he has offered. I find the suggestion a very good one, and I agree with the gentleman in the well.

Mr. QUIE. I thank the gentleman. Mr. SPRINGER. Madam Chairman, will the gentleman yield?

Mr. QUIE. I yield to the gentleman from Illinois.

Mr. SPRINGER. I understood from talking to the gentleman that this puts this act in conformance with the bill that came from the Committee on Education and Labor. Is that correct?

Mr. QUIE. That is correct. In regard to the type of low-income individual to whom the grants would be made available.

Mr. SPRINGER. On that basis I am for the amendment and I hope it is adopted.

Mr. QUIE. I thank the gentleman, because it seems to me if there is any group of young people whom we want to get into the medical schools and we want to use this money for, it would be those who cannot go even with the loans available in this bill and the private grants that are available. So this means the institution first offers him the grant money which they have available and the loan money. If even then a student finds it is impossible for him for economic reasons to go to medical school and if you have a high-caliber individual that the medical schools want, then the school would be able to use this money as a grant to induce such a student to go to their medical school and therefore increase the number of M.D.'s which this legislation has as its basic purpose. I understand that medical schools are getting fewer A students, the same number of B students and more C students than they did a decade ago. Mr. CAHILL. Madam Chairman, will the gentleman yield?

Mr. QUIE. I yield to the gentleman. Mr. CAHILL. Is it required that the applicant already be in the medical school under your amendment before he is eligible?

Mr. QUIE. As I would understand it, even though the requirement that he be accepted by the medical school comes previous to my amendment in subsection (c), these would go simultaneously. The institution would find the student acceptable as a first-year student for entrance and would be admitting them,

but then the student would say, "Well, without this financial help I will not be able to do it." In subsequent years, they would not be able to remain in medical school without the scholarship grants in this bill.

Mr. CAHILL. Is it the intent of this

legislation, as you have suggested in your amendment, that the medical schools which are going to be eligible will get this information across to all of the young men and women of that area prior to enrollment so that they will know they are eligible even though they have not been accepted by the medical school? Mr. QUIE. No. They will have to be acceptable to the medical school but be of such low income that without this grant money, they could not attend the school. I do not see how the medical school can grant them the money unless the student was acceptable to them in the first place.

Mr. CURTIS. Madam Chairman, I move to strike out the last word.

Madam Chairman, I am taking this time because it seems to me as though we are mixing apples and oranges. As I listen to this discussion, most of the talk is as if you are talking about students who are going to college. These are graduate students. These are students who are not the young 18-yearolds, but we are talking about people 21, 22, and 23 years old.

As the chairman of the committee has been pointing out before, the difficulty here is the graduate students. When you start talking in terms of whether they come from low-income families and so on, you are talking about young people who are 21 or 22 years of age. In the National Defense Education Act I did my best to get in the graduate fellow programs. These are grants and, as the gentleman from Illinois has been pointing out, the various science foundations have grants and scholarships. What I fear is by getting confused with the two types of students, one the student going on to college to get his A.B. degree and the other kind, the ones we are talking about here, those who have already gotten their A.B. degree, we will become confused in this issue, because I do not know very many medical schools that you can get into unless you have your A.B. degree. Look at what happened in the student work program in the colleges when you limited it to the so-called poverty class. There were very few students who could qualify because of it. I fear, although the committee wants to accommodate the gentleman offering the amendment-and I am most pleased with what the gentleman from Minnesota is trying to do, to coordinate the actions taken by the Committee on Education and Labor with this bill-I am afraid that you are confusing the two different categories of students and that this would be a very damaging amendment to accomplish what you seek.

The CHAIRMAN. The question is on the amendment offered by the gentleman from Minnesota [Mr. QUIE]. The amendment was rejected.

AMENDMENT OFFERED BY MR. CAHILL

The Clerk read as follows:

Amendment offered by Mr. CAHILL: On page 23, in line 14, strike out "Scholarships” and insert in lieu thereof "Subject to subsections (d) and (e) of this section, scholarships".

Beginning with line 24 on page 24, strike and insert in lieu thereof the following: out all down through line 2 on page 25

"(d) (1) There is hereby established a National Commission on Medical, Dental, and Optometric Scholarships which shall consist of seven members appointed by the President. Members of such Commission shall serve without compensation, but members of the Commission while attending and from such meetings may be allowed meetings of the Commission and traveling to travel expenses, including per diem in lieu of subsistence, as authorized by section 5 of the Administrative Expenses Act of 1946 (5 U.S.C. 73b-2) for persons in the Government service employed intermittently.

"(2) Such Commission shall prepare, administer, and evaluate the results of a national examination which shall be taken by any person desiring to receive a scholarship under this part. No school shall award a scholarship under the provisions of this part to any individual unless such individual is approved therefor by the Commission meeting criteria of financial need which shall as having requisite qualifications and as be established by the Commission.

"(e) Before awarding a scholarship to any individual under under this part, the school awarding such scholarship shall require such individual to agree in writing to serve for at least one year in an area which the Surgeon General designates as having a shortage of personnel having the training for which such scholarship is awarded. Such service shall be performed by such individual upon the completion of such training."

On page 25, line-strike out "(e)" and insert in lieu thereof “(f)”.

Mr. HARRIS. Madam Chairman, I make a point of order against the amend

ment.

The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman will state it.

Mr. HARRIS. Madam Chairman, as

I understand from listening to the reading of the amendment, the gentleman from New Jersey [Mr. CAHILL] would establish a national commission or board

for the purpose of establishing national receive scholarships under the program scholarships and to determine who would posed here the funds to be appropriated proposed here. Under the program prowould be allocated to a school. Under

the procedure the school would make the determination under a regularly established policy of the Congress as to which student under the program would receive a scholarship.

The gentleman's amendment sets up an entirely different program, apart from any program that we have, an entirely new national program which is not contemplated and is not a part of this bill. So it goes beyond the purview of this program and of this proposed legislation and imposes additional duties upon the Surgeon General to provide information that would determine the matter of scholarships, which is not a part of this program at all.

be subject to a point of order.