The Clerk read as follows:

Page 9, line 6, strike out "or with" and insert in lieu thereof "(2)".

(b) Section 634(b) of such Act is amended

(1) by inserting immediately after "or 7" the following: ", or any staff officer in The committee amendment was agreed class 2, 3, 4, 5, or 6, who is a participant in to. the System";

The CHAIRMAN. The Clerk will report the next committee amendment. The Clerk read as follows:

Page 9, line 7, immediately after "organizations" and before the period insert: ", and (3) any office or agency in or under the legislative branch of the Government".

The committee amendment was agreed to.

The CHAIRMAN. The Clerk will report the next committee amendment. The Clerk read as follows:

Page 9, line 15, strike out "the" and insert "such".

to.

(2) by striking out "from the Foreign Service Retirement and Disability Fund," in subparagraph (1); and

(3) by striking out the second and third sentences of subparagraph (2) and inserting in lieu thereof the following: "If such officer dies before reaching age sixty, his death shall be considered a death in service within the meaning of section 832.".

(c) Section 634 (c) of such Act is amended to read as follows:

"(c) Any Reserve officer, or any staff officer or employee who is not a participant in the System, who is separated under section 633 may be granted benefits under section 634 (b)(1).".

The CHAIRMAN. The Clerk will re

The committee amendment was agreed port the first committee amendment.

The CHAIRMAN. The Clerk will read.

The Clerk read as follows:

SEC. 14. Section 633 of such Act is amended to read as follows:

"SEC. 633. The Secretary may by regulation prescribe (1) the manner in which the standard of performance required of officers or employees of the Service is determined, and (2) the maximum period during which officers or employees are permitted to remain in each class without promotion. Any officer or employee who fails to meet the required standard of performance or who is not promoted within the prescribed period may, without regard to section 637, be sep

arated and receive benefits under section 634."

The CHAIRMAN. The Clerk will report the committee amendment. The Clerk read as follows:

Page 9, line 17, strike out "SEC. 14" and insert in lieu thereof "SEC. 20".

The committee amendment was agreed to.

The CHAIRMAN. The Clerk will report the next committee amendment. The Clerk read as follows:

Page 9, line 21, immediately after "Service" insert "below the class of career ambassador".

The committee amendment was agreed to.

The CHAIRMAN. The Clerk will report the next committee amendment. The Clerk read as follows:

Page 9, line 23, immediately before "officers" insert "such".

The committee amendment was agreed to.

The CHAIRMAN. The Clerk will report the next committee amendment.

The Clerk read as follows:

The Clerk read as follows:

Page 10, line 5, strike "SEC. 15" and insert "SEC. 21".

The CHAIRMAN. The Clerk will report the next committee amendment. The Clerk read as follows:

Line 18, strike out "(2)" and insert "(3)". The committee amendment was agreed to.

The CHAIRMAN. The Clerk will report the next committee amendment. The Clerk read as follows:

Line 21, strike out "(3)" and insert "(4)". The committee amendment was agreed to.

The CHAIRMAN. The Clerk will report the next committee amendment. The Clerk read as follows:

Page 11, line 3, strike "Reserve officer, or any staff".

The committee amendment was agreed to.

The CHAIRMAN. The Clerk will report the next committee amendment. The Clerk read as follows:

Page 11, line 4, strike out "System" and

The committee amendment was agreed to.

The Clerk read as follows:

SEC. 16. Section 635 of such Act is amended

by striking out "class 7 who is appointed" and inserting in lieu thereof "class 6 or 7 who is appointed to such class".

The CHAIRMAN. The Clerk will report the first committee amendment. The Clerk read as follows:

Page 11, line 7, strike out "SEC. 16." and in

1,".

The committee amendment was agreed to.

The CHAIRMAN. The Clerk will report the next committee amendment. The Clerk read as follows:

Line 10, strike out "System," and insert "system and".

The committee amendment was agreed to.

The CHAIRMAN. The Clerk will report the next committee amendment.

The Clerk read as follows:

Page 11, after line 10, insert the following:

The CHAIRMAN. The Clerk will report the next committee amendment. The Clerk read as follows:

Page 10, after line 12, insert "(1) by inserting immediately after 'Foreign Service officer' the phrase 'or Foreign Affairs officer';". The committee amendment was agreed to.

The CHAIRMAN. The Clerk will report the next committtee amendment. The Clerk read as follows:

Line 15, strike out “(1)” and insert "(2)". The committee amendment was agreed to.

"SEC. 23. Section 637(a) is amended by tence thereof the following: 'Any request for such hearing shall be made by such officer or employee within 30 days after receipt by him of written notice of such proposed separation, and the Board of the Foreign Service shall hold such hearing and render its decision within 120 days after the receipt of such request for a hearing; except that the Secretary may, under such regulations as he may prescribe, grant one extension (not to exceed 60 days) of such 120day period upon written request from the Board of the Foreign Service or from the officer or employee concerned, for good cause shown by the requesting party.'"

to.

The committee amendment was agreed

The CHAIRMAN. The Clerk will read. The Clerk read as follows:

ficer" insert "such".

The committee amendment was agreed

6".

to.

The CHAIRMAN. The Clerk will read. The Clerk read as follows:

SEC. 15. (a) Section 634(a) of such Act is amended to read as follows:

"(a) Any Foreign Service officer in class 1, 2, or 3, or any staff officer in class 1, who is a participant in the Foreign Service Retirement and Disability System, who is separated under section 633 shall receive benefits under section 821."

to.

SEC. 17. Immediately after section 663 of

The CHAIRMAN. The Clerk will report the next committee amendment. The Clerk read as follows:

to.

The CHAIRMAN. The Clerk will report the first committee amendment. The Clerk read as follows:

the first year after he becomes a participant if he attains age sixty-four or if he is over age sixty-four; during the second year at age sixty-three; during the third year at age

The committee amendment was agreed to.

Mr. GROSS. Mr. Chairman, I move to strike out the last word.

Mr. Chairman, I know there has been some discussion of section 24, but I take this time to ask the chairman of the committee in view of the permissive language in section 24 if it is not the intent of the committee that the Missing Persons Act governs the effectiveness of this particular section.

Mr. HAYS. I would say to the gentleman that is correct insofar as it is legally applicable.

Mr. GROSS. I understand that. But this is permissive language in this section. I think I would have offered an amendment to it but you have written in the Missing Persons Act and I would like the record to show that it is the intent of the committee that insofar as the Missing Persons Act can be made to apply, it will govern.

Mr. HAYS. Exactly, that is the intent. Mr. GROSS. I thank the gentleman. The CHAIRMAN. The Clerk will read. The Clerk read as follows:

SEC. 18. Section 803 (a)(1) of such Act is amended to read as follows:

"(1) All Foreign Service officers, or former Foreign Service officers appointed as Reserve officers or as staff officers or employees without a break in service in excess of three calendar days;".

The CHAIRMAN. The Clerk will report the committee amendment.

The Clerk read as follows:

Page 12, strike out lines 9 through 14, and insert in lieu thereof the following:

"SEC. 25. (a) Section 803 of such Act is amended by adding at the end thereof the following new subsections:

"(d) (1) In accordance with such regulations as the President may prescribe

"(A) any person transferred to the Service under section 29 of the Foreign Service Act Amendments of 1965 as a Foreign Affairs officer or as a Foreign Service staff officer or employee;

"(B) any person appointed as a Foreign Service staff officer or employee of the Department of State, the Agency for International Development, or the United States Information Agency, before the date of enactment of the Foreign Service Act Amendments of 1965; and

"(C) any person appointed for worldwide service as a Foreign Affairs officer or as a Foreign Service staff officer or employee of the Department of State, the Agency for International Development, or the United States Information Agency, on or after the date of enactment of the Foreign Service Act Amendments of 1965;

shall become a participant in the system upon the completion of at least ten years of continuous service (exclusive of military service) as an officer or employee of the Department of State, the Agency for International Development, or the United States Information Agency and shall make a special contribution to the Fund in accordance with provisions of section 852.

(2) Any officer or employee who, under the provisions of paragraph (1) of this subsection, becomes a participant in the System, shall be mandatorily retired for age during

sixty-one; and thereafter at age sixty.

"'(3) Any officer or employee who becomes a participant in the System under the provisions of subparagraph (A) of paragraph (1) of this subsection, who is age fifty-seven or over when he becomes a participant, may retire voluntarily at any time before mandatory retirement under paragraph (2) of this subsection and receive retirement benefits under section 821.

a Foreign Affairs officer or as a staff officer or "(e) Any participant who is appointed as employee without a break in service in excess of three calendar days shall remain a participant.'

"(b) The amendment made by subsection (a) of this section shall become effective on the first day of the first month which begins more than one year after the date of enactment of this Act, except that any Foreign Affairs officer or Foreign Service staff officer or employee who, before such effective date, meets the requirements for participation in the Foreign Service Retirement and Disability System under the amendment made by subsection (a) may elect to become a participant effective on the first day of the second month following the date of his application for earlier participation.

"(c) Section 803 (c) of such Act is repealed effective as of November 1, 1967." The committee amendment was agreed to.

The CHAIRMAN. The Clerk will read.

The Clerk read as follows:

SEC. 19. Section 911 of such Act is amended

by striking out the period at the end of paragraph (10) and inserting in lieu thereof a semicolon and by adding at the end thereof the following new paragraph:

"(11) travel and related expenses, without regard to the provisions of this or any other law, whenever he determines that such expenses are incident to appointment, service, or separation of officers or employees of the Service, including any such expenses of the members of their families".

The CHAIRMAN. The Clerk will report the first committee amendment. The Clerk read as follows:

On page 14, line 23, strike out "SEC. 19" and insert "SEC. 26".

The committee amendment was agreed to.

The CHAIRMAN. The Clerk will report the next committee amendment. The Clerk read as follows:

On page 15, line 5, after the word "that" insert "extraordinary conditions, or circumstances involving personal hardship, warrant the payment of".

The committee amendment was agreed to.

The CHAIRMAN. The Clerk will report the next committee amendment. The Clerk read as follows:

On page 15, line 7, strike out "are". The committee amendment was agreed to.

1, 1950, from any non-Government-operated commissary, mess service, or recreational facility abroad, through termination or otherwise, may be established as a working fund. Such fund may be used by the Secretary, without fiscal year limitation, for the purposes of this section."

The CHAIRMAN. The Clerk will report the first committee amendment.

The Clerk read as follows:

Page 15, line 11, strike out "SEC. 20" and insert in lieu thereof "SEC. 27”.

The CHAIRMAN. Without objection, the committee amendment is agreed to. The Clerk will read.

The Clerk read as follows:

SEC. 21. Immediately after section 943 of such Act add the following new sections:

"SEC. 944. The Secretary is authorized to continue medical services under part E of this title beyond the date of death or separation of an officer or employee.

"SEC. 945. Without regard to the provisions

of any other law, the Secretary may provide for cooperation in, or interchange of, medical and related services and property abroad between the United States Government and foreign governments or international organizations under such terms and conditions as he deems appropriate. Any funds received under such arrangements may be used for direct expenditure or for reimbursement of applicable appropriations."

The CHAIRMAN. The Clerk will report the first committee amendment. The Clerk read as follows:

Page 15, line 20, strike out "SEC. 21" and insert in lieu thereof "SEC. 28".

the committee amendment is agreed to. The CHAIRMAN. Without objection, The Clerk will report the next committee amendment.

The Clerk read as follows:

Page 15, line 22, strike out "The" and insert in lieu thereof "Under such regulations as he may prescribe, the"

The CHAIRMAN. Without objection, the committee amendment is agreed to. The Clerk will report the next committee amendment.

The Clerk read as follows:

Page 15, line 23, strike out "continue" and insert in lieu thereof "provide".

Without objection,

The CHAIRMAN. the amendment is agreed to. The Clerk will read.

The Clerk read as follows:

SEC. 22. The President is authorized, without regard to the provisions of this or any other law, to provide for the transfer, within three years after the date of enactment of this section, of all personnel (except officers compensated in accordance with the Federal Executive Salary Schedule) in or under the Department, the Agency for International Development, and the United States Information Agency, and such personnel as he may designate of other Government agencies who are engaged in foreign affairs functions, to an appropriate class in the Foreign Service Reserve or Foreign Service staff. Each officer or employee so transferred shall receive basic

compensation at the rate of his class determined to be appropriate by the Secretary, except that the rate of basic compensation received by any officer or employee immedishall not be reduced by the provisions of this ately prior to the effective date of transfer section.

The CHAIRMAN. The Clerk will report the first committee amendment.

The Clerk read as follows:

The CHAIRMAN. Without objection, the amendment is agreed to.

The CHAIRMAN. The Clerk will report the next committee amendment. The Clerk read as follows:

Page 16, beginning in line 14, strike out: "transfer, within three years after the date of enactment of this section, of all personnel" and insert in lieu thereof "transfer of all officers and employees".

The CHAIRMAN. Without objection, the committee amendment is agreed to. The Clerk will report the next committee amendment.

Page 16, line 17, strike out "in or under"

and insert in lieu thereof "of".

The CHAIRMAN. Without objection, the committee amendment is agreed to. The Clerk will report the next commit

tee amendment.

The Clerk read as follows:

Page 16, line 18, immediately after "De

partment" and before the comma insert "of

State".

The Clerk read as follows: Page 16, line 16, line 19, immediately after "Agency", insert "without examination,". The CHAIRMAN. Without objection, the amendment is agreed to.

The Clerk will report the next committee amendment.

The Clerk read as follows:

Page 16, beginning in line 20, strike out "and such personnel as he may designate of other Government agencies who are engaged in foreign affairs functions, to an appropriate class in the Foreign Service Reserve or Foreign Service staff" and insert in lieu thereof, "to appropriate classes under the Foreign Service Act of 1946, as amended, as Foreign Affairs officers, Reserve officers, or staff officers or employees; except that no officer or employee shall, without his written consent, be transferred under this section".

The CHAIRMAN. Without objection, the amendment is agreed to.

Foreign Service obtained its flexibility, that is, it obtained the authority to transfer officers or civilians in or out of

the United States from the U.S. bases to foreign bases or back. They had that to foreign bases or back. They had that flexibility under the act the way it is now. However, when we get to this section here, they are asking for authority to transfer civil servants from their civil service status into Foreign Service status. It is true that those who are presently in service cannot be transferred unless they are willing to do so. However, the jobs when gone will be forever gone as civil service jobs and will be Foreign Service jobs. It is the principle, of course, to which I object, that here an agency is going to pull out entirely from the Civil Service Act and have their own merit system as distinct have their own merit system as distinct from the general merit system of the Government. If that system were to be followed and taken up by each agency in the Government of the United States, systems. I do not think we want that we could have 60 or 65 different merit systems. I do not think we want that is true this would be the first one. kind of duplication of merit systems. It

One other thing that is in this particular section of the bill is that these ticular section of the bill is that these people who are transferred out of civil service into the Foreign Service lose in addition all civil service protection and go into a different merit system. They also lose all of their veteran's preference rights. They are forever gone, too.

This amendment and one which I will offer a little later both have to do specifically with the complete elimination of civil service and veterans' preference. In this section it is only inferentially done in that you say people are being transferred out of civil service status and into Foreign Service status, but in the next amendment they spell it out specifically that the Classification Act is repealed insofar as these people are concerned and the Veterans' Preference Act is repealed insofar as all of these people are concerned.

The Clerk read as follows:

Page 17, line 3, strike out "so transferred" and insert in lieu thereof "who transfers under this section".

The CHAIRMAN. Without objection, the committee amendment is agreed to. The Clerk will report the next committee amendment.

The Clerk read as follows:

Page 17, after line 8, add the following new sentence: "No officer or employee who transfers under this section shall be assigned out

side the United States without his written

consent."

The CHAIRMAN. Without objection, the committee amendment is agreed to.

AMENDMENT OFFERED BY MR. OLSEN OF MONTANA

we would retain their veterans' preference rights and there would be no transferring them even with their consent nor, indeed, would there be a transfer of their jobs during the lives of these people in this Department.

I think it is very highly important that the civil service rights of people be protected and that their veterans' preference rights be protected. It is by this amendment that we would retain those rights for these people.

Mr. Chairman, I now yield to the gentleman from New Jersey [Mr. KREBS]. Mr. KREBS. Mr. Chairman, I thank the gentleman for yielding.

I wish to be associated with his amendment and urge its adoption.

Mr. OLSEN of Montana. Mr. Chair

The Clerk read as follows:

the selection-out system. Under the civil service system today, by making charges

Foreign Service they want a bigger advantage than that. They want selection out where they can wash out the lower 10 percent, so-called, simply because they are placed in the lower 10 percent by someone who is grading them. There is not the benefit of knowing the charge or who makes the charge. There is not the opportunity to defend one's self against the specific charge made. That is the trouble with the selection-out system. This system is not necessarily a merit system at all.

It is a new method of firing people. I think it has some serious wrong in it in that it would encourage the subordinate to curry the favor of his superior so that he will tend to agree with his superior instead of giving his superior an independent judgment.

The CHAIRMAN. The time of the gentleman from Montana [Mr. OLSEN] has expired.

Mr. HAYS. Mr. Chairman, I rise in opposition to the amendment.

The gentleman has commendable zeal in wanting to protect civil service employees, but he is taking the position in his amendment that he knows better than the civil service employee himself. He wants to protect the civil service employee from the right voluntarily to transfer to the Foreign Service. We wrote language in here, all of the members of the minority and majority concurring, on page 17, line 9:

No officer or employee who transfers under this section shall be assigned outside the United States without his written consent.

The substance of the gentleman's amendment would be to take away from these people the right to transfer if they want to. They do not have to transfer. They may stay in there for the rest of their career in government until they are age 70, if they wish. But if they want to transfer to the Foreign Service, if they want to be eligible to serve abroad, this section gives them that privilege.

I would say that it has nothing to do with veterans' preference. Nobody is giving up anything here unless he gives it up voluntarily.

Mr. MAILLIARD. Mr. Chairman, will the gentleman yield?

Mr. HAYS. I yield to the gentleman. Mr. MAILLIARD. The effect of this amendment would go even further than that. I presume today that a civil servant, could transfer; he could become a Foreign Service Reserve Officer or perhaps even qualify for the Foreign Service itself if he wanted to do so under existing law.

But

Mr. HAYS. Under an examination. Mr. MAILLIARD. That is right. what this does is to permit him to do so with the guarantee that he will not be employed at a lower salary, and with other protections which he does not have under existing law. If there is anything that discriminates against present civil service employees in the Department of State, this amendment would discriminate against him.

Mr. HAYS. There is no question about it. Further than that, the gentleman says that we are asking for a new system. We are not asking for any new

system. The Foreign Service Officer system exists now. The selection-out system exists now. The funny part of it is that not one person down in the Department has written to me, either signing his name or anonymously, saying that he is against this-not one civil servant.

Mr. HAYS. Mr. Chairman, I ask unanimous consent to proceed for 2 additional minutes.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there objection to the request of the gentleman from Ohio?

There was no objection.
Mr. HAYS.

That is exactly the intent

Mr. HAYS. I yield.

Mr. DENT. This last statement by the gentleman saying that if this amendment is accepted they could not dismiss, could not demote, could not transfer a civil service employee-I doubt if there is any employer in the United States who would give that kind of contract under a union contract. We are trying to hold civil service up as a sacred cow and it is not. What we have done in most instances is we have taken the spoils system out of political control and turned it over to individual control.

The greater percentage of our civil service appointments, above the lower grades, are made by the civil service employees themselves. They are the ones who know about the vacancies. They get their friends, their relatives, admitted into the civil service system and you cannot oust them with any kind of barrage less than an atom bomb.

Every person in this Congress knows that you get the worst kind of service for your constituents from those who are imbedded into the system. You cannot get answers to questions that constituents ask you in the normal run of your office. They get caught into the system and all they work for is advancement to a higher grade and retirement. They know as much about running the U.S. Government on the basis of service as a couple of schoolboys. Everybody knows that. Everyone knows that in civil service as it is now run it is a personal patronage operation for the civil service fellows that are in the office.

Mr. HAYS. I thank the gentleman from Pennsylvania for his contribution and say that this committee does not necessarily associate itself with all the views of the speaker.

Mr. HENDERSON. Mr. Chairman, will the gentleman yield?

Mr. HAYS. I yield to the gentleman from North Carolina.

Mr. HENDERSON. I have been very impressed this afternoon with the manner in which the chairman of the subcommittee and the other members of the subcommittee have tried to attempt to afford the civil service employees the protection of making a choice. For the legislative RECORD I would like for it to be just as clear as it can be made at this point that the Members of the House in affording this language simply want them to have the freedom of choice and that we do not, as many of us are suspicious, expect this department or any of these agencies to harass or intimidate the employees or to pressure them to make a choice in favor of a transfer, when the language is as clear as I think it is.

ther to the gentleman that there has never been a case of that kind brought to the attention of the chairman of this subcommittee since I have been the chairman that has not been thoroughly investigated. As I said earlier, there is investigated. As I said earlier, there is no department that has a subcommittee looking down its neck more strongly than this subcommittee is looking down the this subcommittee is looking down the neck of the State Department. We will neck of the State Department. We will not stand for it. All they have to do is to bring it to our attention.

There has been some talk about this person or that person having been mistreated, but they have never appealed to this subcommittee chairman.

I have had two cases of selection out brought to my attention by Members of the House and I reviewed them. I asked the House and I reviewed them. I asked the State Department for the file. I looked at the file and in both cases I looked at the file and in both cases I thought they had gone too far and I told thought they had gone too far and I told them they ought to give them another chance, and they did. That is the kind of protection they have.

Mr. Chairman, someone said, "You have no right to face your accuser." Every one of these reports, annual reports, must be shown to the man about whom it is made by the man who makes it and signed by him. They do know. These reports are made by many different people all over the world. The individual is evaluated in comparison with all others in this class. On this basis it all others in this class. On this basis it is determined whether he should be recommended for promotion or fall into the low 10 percent of his class. Once he is in there, he is warned. He knows it and he can improve.

Mr. HENDERSON. Mr. Chairman, will the gentleman yield further?

Mr. HAYS. I yield further to the gentleman from North Carolina.

Mr. HENDERSON. As the bill was sent up to your committee, it is obvious that the agencies involved here wanted the authority to transfer these employees from civil service positions into the Foreign Service.

I commend the committee for the action it has taken in behalf of the employees, and I think rightly so, fearing that when the boss wants that authority that when the boss wants that authority in the beginning, they do not know to whom to look for protection.

I believe the statement which the gentleman from Ohio has made is fair protection to them and, certainly, as one Member_interested in the civil service system, I will call that to your attention system, I will call that to your attention if they are not.

Mr. HAYS. I thank the gentleman.

The CHAIRMAN. The time of the gentleman from Ohio has again expired. gentleman from Ohio has again expired. Mr. HAYS. Mr. Chairman, I ask unanimous consent to proceed for 1 additional minute.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there objection to the request of the gentleman from

There was no objection.

Mr. HAYS. Every commission or body that has studied this dual personnel system starting with the Hoover Commission, the Ramspeck Commission, the Herter Committee, has recommended this. This is an honest attempt by the committee to write language by which the foreign affairs agencies can improve themselves.

Mr. JOELSON. Mr. Chairman, will the gentleman yield?

Mr. HAYS. I yield to the gentleman from New Jersey.

Mr. JOELSON. With reference to the selection-out system, I have two questions:

First. Are there standards of grading those who are in the first 90 percent and then the lower 10 percent; and

Second. Is there any appeal from this classification?

Mr. HAYS. Yes. The selection boards are given precepts or instructions to guide them in the application of standards. In the case of selection out there is an administrative appeal. In separation for cause an appeal may be made to the Board of the Foreign Service. The administration did not put this in the proposed legislation, but we deliberately made the Civil Service Commission Chairman a member of the

Board of the Foreign Service in order to provide some measure of reassurance to civil service personnel who may elect to enter the Foreign Service system.

Mr. GROSS. Mr. Chairman, I move to strike the requisite number of words.

Mr. Chairman, I am pleased to hear the interest which the gentleman from Ohio takes in the employees who have been unjustly treated in the various agencies of the Government. But I do not believe that this should be a responsibility of any subcommittee chairman, the chairman of any committee, or any one Member of Congress. The laws should be written and administered to make this a concern of all.

The protection, as best as it can be written, ought to be written into the law because the gentleman might not be here forever.

Mr. HAYS. Mr. Chairman, will the gentleman yield?

Mr. GROSS. I yield to the gentleman from Ohio.

Mr. HAYS. May I say I think the gentleman is exactly right. I cited these cases to show that the Department is not trying to get rid of anybody. In most of these cases the individual came in and talked to me. In both cases they said “I have not given my best, and I would like one more chance." I did not say to the Department "You have to give him a chance." chance." I did not have that authority. But I called in the Assistant Secretary, I went over it with him, and I said “This fellow admits he has not given his best. He wants a chance to improve his position. Do you not think it might be in the interest of the United States to give him that chance?" He said "Yes." The man is on notice that he has got to do better, and I think maybe he will, but I want to say to the gentleman he knows and I know no system which is run by human beings is going to be perfect. I do not claim this one is, and I am sure

the gentleman does not claim the civil service is. But I think he will have as much protection as he has under the civil service.

Mr. GROSS. I wish I could agree with the gentleman on that last statement, but I cannot. The gentleman from Pennsylvania [Mr. DENT] a moment ago spoke of all the abuses in the civil service.

No one denies that there are abuses, but there is nothing in this bill to guarantee that there will not be abuses rampant if this is enacted. When you turn over to the hierarchy in the State Department the wide-open authority provided here, without the protection such as the civil service affords, there is every reason to believe the abuses will be worse. I would like to ask the gentleman: To whom will the civil service employee, who goes over to the Foreign Service, appeal if charges are preferred against him?

Mr. HAYS. The Board of Foreign Service.

Mr. GROSS. The truth of the matter is that you are going to compel these present class act employees, those who go into the Foreign Service, and all new employees, to take their appeals to a hand-picked board in the State Department, and to no one else?

Mr. HAYS. Let me say to the gentleman if it is as bad or will be as bad as the gentleman makes out, there will be no employees. They go in there voluntarily, they know what the rules of the game are. The Foreign Service people are all under these regulations. We have hundreds more applications than we can use. That is why they have a stiff examination, and I do not think the gentleman has to worry about them. know, when you run for Congress, you may not get elected.

You

Mr. GROSS. The gentleman reminded me of that a while ago.

Mr. HAYS. I am talking about myself. Whenever any of us runs for Congress we know that the voters may select us out, but we are willing to take the chance.

Mr. GROSS. I want them to have the opportunity to appeal to what amounts to a fair and impartial jury. Under the terms of this bill it is going to be a handpicked jury to which the employee appeals.

Mr. HAYS. No more than the civil service.

Mr. GROSS. The gentleman knows that the civil service procedures are far different from this.

Mr. HAYS. Yes, the appeals procedures are not identical.

Mr. GROSS. Especially with the veterans' preference, which you are determined to throw out.

Mr. HAYS. That comes in another amendment that has nothing to do with this one.

Mr. GROSS. I understand that perfectly. But it does not for 1 minute change the fact that if this bill is enacted the hierarchy in the State Department will be given power that is held in no other agency or department of government.

If the civil service is as bad as the proponents of this legislation say it is CXI-1466

then the administration and the majority leadership in Congress ought to deity leadership in Congress ought to demand that the Post Office and Civil Service Committee take action to abandon the system or correct the alleged abuses. To erode and abandon civil service in one department and two or three agencies to the exclusion of all others is incredible and I am amazed that there is credible and I am amazed that there is no protest from President Johnson.

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Mr. Chairman, I rise in support of the amendment and I shall not speak at length on it, but I I shall not speak at length on it, but I was very distressed a few moments ago to listen to the violent and vicious attack-yes the violent and vicious attack that the gentleman from Pennsylvania [Mr. DENT] made upon our civil service system. I felt worse when he concluded his remarks and heard the hilarity and laughter on his side of the aisle. This is a reflection upon the wonderful people we have working in the Federal service. Of course, out of 22 million you are not going to have them all perfect. But I have been around here for 9 years and I have worked with these people and the system. I have high regard for John Macy, a very dear and personal friend of mine. He is doing an excellent job. So when a Member, as the Member from Pennsylvania did, makes such a violent and vicious attack upon this wonderful civil service system, it certainly does not sit well with me and I am certain it will not sit well with the employees throughout the United States.

It was also stated that you cannot dismiss or demote these people in the State Department foreign service. This is not so. They can be demoted and they can be dismissed. It would be ridiculous if it were any other way. I might say too, I believe the gentleman from Ohio [Mr. HAYS] mentioned favorably the Ramspeck report. I do not have too much regard for that. He is the one who just recommended or who has recently recommended that the Post Office Department increase the postage rates for all religious newspapers in this country and I think all of you have received letters as a result of that report.

Mr. HAYS. Mr. Chairman, will the gentleman yield?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Iyield.

Mr. HAYS. I would just like to correct one statement which I am sure the gentleman makes inadvertently.

The people under the Foreign Service cannot be demoted. They have rank in their position and once they attain that, you cannot demote a fellow to humiliate him or for any other reason just as you cannot under the civil service.

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I thank the gentleman.

I made note of one of the speakers on your side who is opposed to the amendment. He made the statement that you could not dismiss or demote them and I accepted the gentleman's statement.

Mr. DENT. Mr. Chairman, will the gentleman yield?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I yield to the gentleman who made the vicious attack on the civil service system.

Mr. DENT. You know, once when I was a boy my father told me, "Beware of a man who tries to climb a ladder on

your shoulders." If you want to get in good with the civil service boys by saying that I made an attack on them and that you are their great defender, all I can say to you is that you had better get a broader sword and a larger shield.

The civil service people have known me for 33 years in and out of legislative halls. I have defended them when they have been right and I fight them when they are wrong. I say to you, and I repeat, it was not a vicious attack. If you know what viciousness is, you ought to hear me talk when I have something to talk that way about.

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I just hope the gentleman will leave his remarks in the RECORD and let the record speak for itself.

Mr. DENT. Mr. Chairman, I move to strike out the necessary number of words.

The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman from Pennsylvania is recognized.

Mr. HAYS. Mr. Chairman, will the gentleman yield for a unanimous-consent request?

Mr. DENT. I yield to the gentleman. Mr. HAYS. Mr. Chairman, I ask unanimous consent that all debate on the pending amendment, and all amendments thereto, close in 5 minutes.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there objection to the request of the gentleman from Ohio?

There was no objection.

Mr. DENT. Mr. Chairman, I want first to advise the gentleman that in 33 years I have never changed a record of any word I have ever said on the floor of any legislative body. It was the greatest surprise to me when I came to the Congress to find that a Member can say something on this floor, and then when you read the RECORD it is entirely different from what was said. I do not change my words. I want to add, though, since I have the time-and I defy the gentleman to deny this statement-there are less family units-less family units in the total number of employees under civil service than any other group of employees in the United States of America. That is what I said in my earlier remarks. I am not talking about the little civil service fellow, the pick-and-shovel civil service fellow. I am talking about the vast majority of civil servants who never took an examination of any kind. They have been railroaded into the civil service and sealed into the civil service. If the gentleman does not know that, he is lacking in his knowledge of what he is talking about on the floor.

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Mr. Chairman, will the gentleman yield?

Mr. DENT. I yield to the gentleman from Nebraska.

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I am glad that the gentleman is softening his remarks that he made earlier.

Mr. DENT. They say something about Yale people. I do not know whether the gentleman went to Yale or not. The statement is, "You can always tell a Yale man, but you can't tell him much."

I believe that is exactly the position that the gentleman is in. I am not softening my remarks; I am adding to