Mr. J. G. Saxe - That was put in the Committee of the Whole. Mr. Wickersham - I know it was. Not by my vote. I voted against it, and I don't believe in it. I don't believe in putting it in that way. I shall vote against it here, and I am going to move to recommit the bill to the Committee of the Whole, to strike out the paragraph at the end of Section 2, and to strike out all of Section 6. Mr. Bunce - Mr. President. The President The Chair recognizes Mr. Bunce. Mr. Bunce - Mr. President, I desire to support the amendment of the delegate from Cattaraugus to strike out Section 6. The news was given out only yesterday that the Appellate Division of the Third Department had rendered a decision ousting certain squatters from valuable virgin forest lands in Hamilton county wilderness. The defendants were Henry La Prairie and others. I believe we should not write into the Constitution a provision that will nullify the decision of the court. Mr. Marshall - Mr. President. Mr. Marshall - I don't understand why the Chairman of the Judiciary Committee should have manifested so much opposition on this bill. It is a very simple proposition. The Section 6 was added at the suggestion of the State Conservation Commissioner and his staff. They appeared before the Committee on Conservation after the Committee had completed its draft of the bill and was about to report. They brought to the attention of the Committee a state of facts which has been described by Mr. Austin. We had laid down the general rule that the lands of the State were to be kept forever as wild forest lands; not to be sold. We found a situation which was a serious one. All of the vituperations that may be addressed to this provision cannot wipe out the fact that you are dealing with a class of people who are not to be judged by the same standards by which men are judged in a Constitutional Convention. And there was a real terror which confronted us. Moreover, these people had certain rights, not, perhaps, strict legal rights, but certain equitable rights. Many of them had gone into possession of the lands with the consent of the then owners. The title to these lands was questionable. Until December, 1909, the State had no real title, no title which could be maintained in court, and these people had acquired rights, at least possession of these lands prior to that time. Now, there is nothing that is given to them, there is no ownership given them, there is nothing granted to them. They are merely permitted, where they are occupants of have been, prior to 1909, occupants of these lands, and are continuous residents thereon throughout each year, that they may have, in the discretion of this board, a revocable non-transferable license for the continuance of that occupancy. That is all. It is merely the dictate of prudence, together with a sense of justice, which has occasioned the adoption of this provision, and it does not give anybody lands which he can sell or dispose of, and it does not cover the case of any people who have not an actual equity behind them. Now, with regard to this road which has been described with so much sarcasm. This road was not proposed by the Committee, but on this floor. Senator Blauvelt and a number of other gentlemen, including President Schurman and Mr. Whipple, proposed this change in this provision. They thought it was necessary, and Mr. Schurman made a very strong argument in favor of it. It was opposed to giving roads in general. They know what that meant; they know what "improvement in roads" means, and all those phrases. They know it means an attempt to make a checkerboard of roads through the Adirondack forest. They opposed it. By concession of the Committee of the Whole, they voted this in after two days' discussion of this provision with these amendments, the action of the Committee was approved. Now, so far as the suggestions of Mr. Smith are concerned, Mr. Smith does not seem to recognize what the purpose of this first provision is. It is not to lay down a legislative enactment, which is to control every step that is to be taken by these commissioners. These commissioners are to organize what is really a laboratory to study the situation of the forests and waters, and to deal with the question of fish and game, and they are not to go into the business of developing water powers, or into the business of dealing with the power. The subject of limitation in the Constitution contained - the department was to be charged with the development and protection of the natural resources of the State; the encouragement of forestry and the suppression of forest fires throughout the State; the exclusive care, maintenance and administration of the forest preserves; the conservation, prevention of pollution, and regulation of the waters of the State; the protection and propagation of fish, and so forth. Now, that is all that was done. But these attempts are now made of adding to this provision new clauses which may have lodging with them the potency of much mischief, which may result in our saying here that the State shall embark upon an enterprise of power development, which none of us have ever considered in Committee, which has not been considered in this Convention even, and to inject it into this measure at the eleventh hour, when we are about to vote at third reading, is absolutely unthinkable and is improper. We prevent the Legislature from amending a provision on third reading. A measure must be on the desks of the members for three days before putting in new matter. Now an attempt is made to put new matter into this provision. This measure is a measure which will make it proper for the resources of the State to be developed for their preservation, for their conservation, and anything more than that would be a wrong and a mischief. Mr. A. E. Smith - Mr. Chairman, since I offered my second amendment, taking the title of Chapter 569, I have arrived at the conclusion, inasmuch as that statute stands on the statute books, I will be satisfied with this amendment. And to this, there should be no objection, and this can put no mischief into it, but will help to temper a little the mischief of the present measure. After the word "State" on line 12, so that it will read this way: "The conservation" Delegates - What page? Mr. A. E. Smith - Page 2. "The conservation, prevention of pollution and regulation of the waters of the State and with the enforcement of the general laws of the State in respect thereof". Now, that leaves the ques tion open at any time for the Legislature to change its policy as laid down by Chapter 569. But without that, without that there is where the mischief is. You so form the policy adopted by the State, and that Hughes bill of 1907, and you are narrowing them down to just the protection of the natural resources, not to devising of land for their development. Mr. Marshall - The Committee is ignorant of what are the general laws of the State. They don't know what laws are referred to. They don't know what might be lodged in those phrases. We do provide that the department shall be charged with protection so far as the waters of the State are concerned, prevention of pollution and their regulation. That is sufficiently broad to cover everything legitimate and permissible. Beyond that I don't know what is intelligent. And also, "such additional powers". "The department shall exercise such additional powers as from time to time may be conferred by law," if thereafter the Legislature in its wisdom decides that it shall commit to this body the enforcement of law which may be hereafter adopted and which we may know the meaning of, which will be sufficient; but to say now at this time, at this vital moment, that we shall accept language such as is now proposed, is something that I cannot approve of. I would rather leave the entire measure alone. Mr. Parsons - Will the gentleman yield? Mr. Marshall - Yes. Mr. Parsons - Isn't the advantage of this amendment that it makes it clear that it is for the Legislature to declare the policy of the State as to development of water powers? Mr. Marshall - That appears in lines 20 and 21. "The department shall exercise such additional powers as from time to time may be conferred by law", which will deal with the whole subject. Mr. A. E. Smith - At the time I spoke of the bill, I spoke of the language on lines 20 and 21. What I am afraid of is that you will never be able to get another bill through here like Chapter 569. It required a forceful, vigorous man like Governor Hughes to put it through. I, for one, am never going to allow it to be destroyed. This simply amends - let us see what it would do. It would say this conservation commission is to be charged with the conservation, prevention of pollution and regulation of the waters of the State, and the enforcement of any general law with respect thereto, any general law with respect to the conservation of water. Isn't that the duty of the conservation commission? Mr. Marshall - I don't know what any general law" may be. It may be forty different things that I have never seen.. Mr. A. E. Smith - What difference does that make? If it is a law for the enforcement, for the conservation of water, for the prevention of pollution, and regulation of waters of the State, and it is a general law, who should enforce it? Only the conservation commission. This is my second amendment The Chairman The time for debate is closed. Mr. A. E. Smith - Permit me to say, Mr. President, that this is my second amendment in place of the other I sent up. I withdraw the other one, if I may have the permission, Mr. President. Mr. Cobb-Mr. President, although the time has expired, may I offer this amendment? Mr. Wickersham - Mr. President. Mr. Dooling - Mr. President, may I offer an amendment? The President - The gentleman will send his amendment to the desk. Mr. Wickersham Mr. President, I desire to make one statement, if I may, by unanimous consent. Since objection to the highway provision in Section 2, my attention has been called to two opinions by attorneys-general of the State, and without debating them, I am willing to withdraw my objection to that section because of them. The President - The question, without further debate, arises, first, on the motion of Mr. A. E. Smith, to recommit to the Committee of the Whole, with instructions to report forthwith, amended in two respects. The first will be read by the Secretary. The Secretary - On page 2, line 4, after the word "district" insert the following: "No person shall be eligible to or shall continue to hold the office of commissioner who is engaged in the business of lumbering in any forest preserve county, or who is engaged in any business in the prosecution of which hydraulic power is used, or in which water is distributed or sold under any public franchise, or who is an officer or holder of stocks or bonds of any corporation engaged in such business within the State". Mr. Clinton - Mr. President. The President - Mr. Clinton. Mr. Clinton - There are several amendments of a like nature recommitting to the Committee of the Whole with instructions to report forthwith. As I understand the rule, if one of these motions carries, the bill has to be reprinted. The President - That is correct. Mr. Clinton Mr. President, I rise to ask whether we can pass on all of these before it goes back to the Committee of the Whole, so that it can be reprinted. The President - The Chair thinks that you can, if there is no desire for a division on the amendments in such a manner that that cannot be done. Mr. A. E. Smith - Mr. President, let me suggest that the other amendments are in the nature of amendments to my first amendment. Am I right about that? What happens to the bill after the first motion to recommit carries? The President The bill goes back with instructions to amend as indicated. Mr. A. E. Smith - Mr. President, I ask for a rising vote on that motion as to the cligibility clause. The President-All in favor of recommitting the bill with instructions to amend as indicated with respect to the qualifications of commissioners will rise and remain standing until counted. The gentlemen will take their seats. The motion is manifestly carried. The Secretary will read the second motion by Mr. Smith. The Secretary - By Mr. Smith. On page 2, line 12, after the word "state" insert the following: "And with the enforcement of the general laws of the state in respect thereof ". The President - The motion is to recommit to the Committee of the Whole with instructions to amend and report forthwith as read by the Secretary. Mr. A. E. Smith - Mr. President, I ask for a rising vote. The President-All in favor of the motion will rise and remain standing until counted. The gentlemen will be seated. The amendment is manifestly carried. The motion now is upon the amendment by Mr. Whipple, to recommit, with instructions to strike out Section 6 of the bill. Mr. Whipple - Rising vote. The President - All in favor of that motion will rise and remain standing until counted. The gentlemen will be seated. All those opposed, will rise and remain standing until counted. The vote is reported as 68 to 60, and the bill is back in the Convention, having lost Section 6 on the way. (Laughter.) The next question occurs on Mr. Cobb's amendment. The Secretary wilt read. The Secretary - On page 3, strike out the last sentence of Section 2 and insert in place thereof, the following: "Nothing herein contained shall prevent the state from constructing highways within the forest preserve but no highway shall be constructed across lands of the state, excepting by unanimous consent of the conservation commission." Mr. Marshall - Mr. President, if that is adopted, I shall move to strike out the enacting clause. The President - All in favor of the amendment will say Aye, contrary No. The Noes have it, and the amendment is lost. The Secretary will read the next amendment. The Secretary On line 18, strike out after the word acres the semicolon and insert a period. Strike out the remainder of the section A Delegate (interrupting) - What page? Mr. Quigg - Mr. President, I ask that that be read again. The President - The Secretary will read the amendment again. The Secretary - On page 4, section 6, line 18 Mr. Wickersham (interrupting) - That has been stricken out. The Secretary - That is the last. The President - The bill, having been returned with amendments, will be laid aside to be reprinted. The Secretary will read the next number on the Calendar. The Secretary No. 834, by the Committee on Taxation: To amend the Constitution, by inserting a new article, in relation to taxation. Mr. Olcott - Mr. President. The President - Mr. Olcott. Mr. Olcott - I move that this bill be recommitted to the Committee of the Whole, with instructions to report it back amended in the particular which I have written out and ask the Secretary to read. The President - The Secretary will read. The Secretary On page 2, line 23, strike out the period at the end of the line and add Mr. Quigg (interrupting) - Mr. President, we cannot hear. The President - The conservation of silence is requested. It is impossible for the members to act intelligently if they cannot hear the Secretary and it is impossible for the Secretary to act intelligently if he cannot hear the members. |