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deavored ever since that meeting to give time to the examination of the statutes, and satisfy myself as to whether we were not leaping in the dark. upon this proposition. You know, there are provisions in the education law, the town law, the general municipal law, the second class cities charter, the county law, and various special city charters, about these bond issues. I have examined as many of them as I could, and I have arrived at the conclusion that you may be rushing into difficulty in adopting this amendment. There are so many questions arising in reference to special assessment issues, in certificates of indebtedness, of bonds which I have not had the time to work out and satisfy myself that we might not be creating a hardship upon municipalities and that we may not be creating difficulties which it would be difficult to overcome. Now, for instance, I know of two or three instances where bond issues of municipalities are now being held up by injunetion, and one case I know, where the matter is pending in the Court of Appeals, and will not be argued until late this fall. The proceedings have been taken by the municipality. Their legality has been questioned and the community has been enjoined from issuing the bonds. Now, undoubtedly the decision of the Court of Appeals will not come down until after the frst of January in this matter, and in one or two others I know of. What is the effect of this amendment on those proceedings? Will all that have been taken be nullified by this amendment, if the Court of Appeals should sustain the legality of the proceedings in question? I don't know. I do not want to say I feel it is a dangerous thing to adopt this amendment. However, I am willing to do this, and it seems to me a perfectly fair proposition. This Cities Committee has among its membership many able lawyers. If there is one lawyer on that Committee who will tell me he has examined the statutes and the decisions of the court relating to these bond issues and he is satisfied after that examination that this amendment is right and proper, I will vote for it. But I have inquired of some members of the Committee, and those members of whom I have inquired have told me they had made no such examination. Now, I submit, Mr. President, that it is unwise in the extreme to pass a measure of this importance unless somebody - somebody has thoroughly examined the law and the decisions upon it. In my present frame of mind I cannot vote for it.

Mr. R. B. Smith - I move to recommit with instructions to amend as follows: Two amendments.

The Secretary - By Mr. R. B. Smith, page 6, lines 10 and 11, strike out "State engineer and surveyor", and insert "superintendent of public works of the State".

On page 6, lines 23 and 24, strike out the words "Said sinking fund is insufficient to pay the same" and insert in place thereof "The payment of the same shall not have been provided for by a sinking fund."

Mr. R. B. Smith - Mr. President, the first amendment is obviously necessary. The second, the amendment provides for two cases for refunding of outstanding bonds, one where there is no sinking fund as in the case of the water bonds of the City of Syracuse, and the other where there has been a partial sinking fund as in the case of the city of Rochester. Now, line 23, refers to both cases, and limits it in this language: may, so far as said sinking fund is insufficient to pay the same" apparently referring only to the Rochester case and not the Syracuse case, or similar cases. I have tried to cover it by language which would apply to both cases which exist, of course, in different cities of the State.

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Mr. Low - Mr. President.
The President - Mr. Low.

Mr. Low - Mr. President, Mr. Austin's statement is correct. At the conference which we held with members of the State Finance Committee and others having special knowledge, as we thought, upon this subject, it was determined to confine the section 12 to cities only. But at the request of Mr. John Lord O'Brian and Mr. Barrett, of the County Committee, I was asked to restore it. I did restore it to its original form, so that it would include counties, towns, villages and other civil divisions of the State, upon their assurance that they would have introduced a corresponding amendment for those smaller divisions of the State, had they not understood that it was to be included in ours. They can explain the situation as it bears on the smaller communities better than I. This is the process that was pursued by the Cities Committee in preparing this article. We appointed a sub-committee, consisting of Mr. Wiggins, Mr. Sanders, Mr. Weed and myself. We corresponded with the different cities so far as we had any reason from the testimony given before us, to know that they were especially interested; and without having examined all the laws as Mr. Austin has said, I think we did make a very thorough study of the situation in the large, and our movement was based primarily upon letters which we sent to all of the cities of the State, asking many questions as to the debt, the amount of water bonds and other bonds that they had, the number of times the debt was refunded and the like, and it was upon that information, coming from the cities only, I must say, that we took the initial step to prepare this section 12. I have since sent the section, not in this form, but in the earlier form, to all of the cities of the State, and from none have had any criticism that have not been met by the revision made in the Committee of the Whole.

Mr. Parsons - Will Mr. Low let me say that after this was passed by the Committee of the Whole I sent a copy to the Comptroller's office in New York City, and requested a reply in case there was any criticism which the Comptroller's office had to make, and no reply has come.

Mr. Latson Mr. President.

The President Mr. Latson.

Mr. Latson - Mr. President, I feel, in view of what Mr. Austin has said, that I should make the statement that the sub-committee referred to by Mr. Low reported to the Committee on Cities and their report was accepted without individual study by myself at all events, and I am in no position to guarantee the accuracy of the work of that committee, and I assume, as Mr. Low has stated, that the work was done with the usual thoroughness of the gentlemen who composed that sub-committee, and I share with Mr. Austin something of this sense of danger in adopting a Constitutional provision of this nature under the conditions which he has described.

Mr. Wickersham - Mr. President, the hour of ten-thirty having arrived, I am about to move that we adjourn until to-morrow, and I do it at this juncture because I believe it will give an opportunity for a conference on this measure before it comes up to be voted upon, and I therefore now move that the Convention adjourn until tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock.

The President - Mr. Wickersham moves that the Convention do now adjourn. All in favor say Aye, contrary No. The motion is carried and the Convention now stands adjourned until 10 o'clock tomorrow morning.

Whereupon at 10:30 P. M. the Convention adjourned until Wednesday morning, September 1, 1915, at 10 o'clock.

STATE OF NEW YORK

IN CONVENTION

RECORD

No. 88

ASSEMBLY CHAMBER - THE CAPITOL

ALBANY, N. Y., Wednesday, September 1, 1915, 10 a. m.

The President - The Convention will please be in order. Prayer will be offered by the Rev. William R. Charles.

The Rev. Mr. Charles - In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, Amen. Our Father Who art in Heaven, hallowed be Thy name, Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us, and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil, Amen. In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, Amen.

The President - Are there any amendments to be proposed to the Journal as printed and distributed? There being no amendments proposed, the Journal stands approved as printed.

Presentation of memorials and petitions.

Communications from the governor and other State officers.

Notices, motions and resolutions. The Secretary will call the roll of districts.

The Secretary - First district, second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth, ninth, tenth, eleventh, twelfth, thirteenth, fourteenth, fifteenth, sixteenth, seventeenth, eighteenth

Mr. Eisner - Mr. President.

The President - Mr. Eisner.

Mr. Eisner I desire to give notice that, unless the Rules Committee makes the social welfare program of the Industrial Relations Committee a special order in general orders before the end of this week, I shall move to discharge the Committee of the Whole from further consideration of that measure.

Mr. Marshall - Mr. President, on behalf of the Committee on Bill of Rights, I ask whether there is to be a special order made presently of General Order No. 63, which involves a number of very important propositions to which the Committee has given very serious thought and which it feels should be acted upon by the Convention.

Mr. Reeves - Mr. President, while the matter of the Bill of Rights is up, if it is in order, I would like to offer a minority report on the matter of capital punishment. In offering this, the minority wish to express their entire satisfaction with and cordial appreciation of the way in which they were treated in regard to the matter. It is submitted by five of the members of the Committee on Bill of Rights, Vice-Presidents Schurman and O'Brien, and Mr. Bunce, District Attorney Martin and myself. If it is not out of order - it is brief I would like to have it read.

Mr. M. J. O'Brien - Mr. President, in that report of the Committee on Bill of Rights there are some provisions that it seems to me the Convention should pass upon, particularly those relating to questions of commutation and the rights that are involved in matters affecting cities of the State.

Mr. Schurman - Mr. President.

The President - Mr. Schurman.

Mr. Schurman - In that connection, I should like to ask whether it would not be better to withhold this report until the Convention has before it the Proposed Amendment of the Committee on Bill of Rights of which the chairman has just spoken.

The President - The question before the Convention is, shall Mr. Reeves and his associates in the minority in Committee on Bill of Rights, have leave to file a minority report. All in favor of granting that leave will say Aye, contrary No. The leave is granted.

The Chair suggests that the report will be printed in the ordinary course and, as the matter cannot be considered now, perhaps it would not be worth while to have it read.

Mr. Reeves - All right.

The President - It will be printed and distributed so that the members will all have it for consideration.

The Chair will say for the information of the gentlemen who have spoken that the Committee on Rules had under consideration a schedule of special orders at the time of their last meeting which included both the report of the Committee on Bill of Rights and the report of the Committee on Industrial Relations. They were interrupted by coming into the Convention, and, as we have been continuously upon the order of third reading since that time, they have had no opportunity for further consultation. The Chair has already been requested to give notice of a meeting of the Committee on Rules immediately upon the taking of the recess, at noon to-day, and the Chair will give notice The Committee on Rules will meet immediately upon taking recess at 1 o'clock, or about then.

now.

The call will proceed.

The Secretary - Nineteenth district, twentieth, twenty-first, twenty-second, twenty-third, twenty-fourth, twenty-fifth, twenty-sixth, twenty-seventh, twentyeighth, twenty-ninth, thirtieth, thirty-first, thirty-second, thirty-third, thirtyfourth, thirty-fifth, thirty-sixth, thirty-seventh, thirty-eighth, thirty-ninth, fortieth, forty-first, forty-second, forty-third, forty-fourth, forty-fifth, fortysixth, forty-seventh, forty-eighth, forty-ninth, fiftieth, fifty-first.

The President - Reports of standing committees.

Reports of select committees.

Third reading.

The unfinished business of third reading is the bill reported by the Committee on Cities, Third Reading No. 21, Print No. 829, Int. No. 713, relating to

the contracting of debts by cities.

Mr. Stimson - Mr. President.

The President - Mr. Stimson.

Mr. Stimson - In reference to the bill now on third reading, I have been much impressed with the considerations which were advanced by Mr. Austin last evening, and which indicated the extreme risk and danger of endeavoring to create a constitutional method for the contracting of debts by the various subdivisions of the State without a prolonged and exhaustive study of the various laws and statutes which now regulate all such debts. So far as we have been able to observe, that condition has not been fulfilled thus far. It would be impossible for it to be fulfilled in the time that any Committee has had during the sessions of this Convention

The President (interrupting) - There is a great deal of confusion in the chamber.

Mr. Stimson - And I have rather reached the conclusion, myself, that it would be the safer method to follow to suggest that this reform which is certainly needed, be introduced by a directory method rather than by inserting, in a mandatory manner, the provision in the Constitution. I therefore drafted this morning a provision, of which I have sent a copy to the chairman on Cities, which endeavors to follow out that method and simply to prescribe a. duty to the Legislature to provide the necessary laws which will carry out a policy thus set out in the Constitution, and I should like to offer that amendment as a substitute for Section 12 on page 5 of the pending bill, which merely makes it the duty of the Legislature to provide by law for the issuance of debts in serial form and the limitation of the length of time in which those debts shall mature, to end that the life of the debt shall not exceed the life of the object for which the debt is created.

Mr. J. L. O'Brian - Mr. President.
The President Mr. O'Brian.

Mr. J. L. O'Brian It seems to me that it would be the part of wisdom to lay this bill aside until it is reached on the Calendar to-morrow morning. This proposed amendment is one that the members of the Committee on County Government have had no opportunity to study. That Committee I might say with reference to what Mr. Low said last night about the way in which this present bill was drawn, that Committee made up of men from ten or twelve different counties in the State, all of whom were more or less familiar with the method of issuing bonds in school, lighting districts and so forth, felt that the bill before us was proper and was adequate. If they are wrong in that opinion, they naturally want the bill changed, but if we adopt this amendment this morning which is suggested by Mr. Stimson it will put us in a position where when this bill comes up on reprint, there will be no opportunity for discussion on it, and I think it important that we should have an opportunity to consider the bearing of this new amendment, and I therefore move that this bill, this proposed amendment now under consideration shall lie over until to-morrow morning, holding its present place upon the third reading calendar.

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