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the peace by the use if necessary of their arms and of the power which they possess, but they are not authorized to punish any person for any offense. Persons arrested shall be delivered to the civil authorities."

Mr. Chairman, I think that the regulations and the military law of the State should not be disturbed, as the situation is amply covered to effect the correction of the evil which the Proposed Amendment is intended to meet. Mr. M. Saxe - Mr. Chairman, will the gentleman yield for a question? Mr. Tuck - Yes.

Mr. M. Saxe - Of course, the gentleman appreciates that the military law can be repealed?

Mr. Tuck - Yes, sir.

Mr. M. Saxe - Why isn't it wise then, to provide by the Constitution against just such a situation as this proposal does?

Mr. Tuck - Because it is not anticipated that such evils will arise and because by your proposal you interfere with the proper operation of military courts in the case of necessity.

Mr. Marshall - Isn't it a question of whether the civil or military arms of our court shall prevail? So long as the courts are open, should not the civil courts deal with all such questions?

Mr. Tuck - They do.

Mr. Latson - The Chairman of the Military Committee stated, or showed, that it was a fact.

The Chairman - The question occurs on Mr. Marshall's amendment.
Mr. Dahm - Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman - Mr. Dahm.

Mr. Dahm - May I ask Mr. Tuck a question?

Mr. Tuck Yes.

Mr. Dahm - Can you give us any guarantee that the conditions in this State would not in the future be such as we had in Colorado and West Virginia in recent years.

Mr. Tuck - I can only give you, Mr. Dahm, the guarantee of the citizenship of this State.

Mr. Dahm-And for that very reason that amendment is introduced, to prevent the possibility of such an occurrence in the State of New York. Delegates - Question. Question.

The Chairman - The question has been called for. The question occurs on Mr. Marshall's amendment. Is there any request for a further reading of the amendment? As many as are in favor of Mr. Marshall's amendment will say Aye, contrary No. The Ayes seem to have it and the amendment is adopted.

The Chair suggests that that disposes of the amendment by Mr. Latson. Delegates - No, no, no.

The Chairman - The question occurs on the amendment offered by Mr. Latson.

Mr. Wickersham - A rising vote, Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman That strikes out all in italics from Section 4. As many as are in favor of striking out the italics will say Aye, contrary No. The Chair is in doubt. As many as are in favor of the amendment will rise and remain standing until counted. The gentlemen will be seated. All those who are opposed will rise and remain standing until counted. The gentle

men will remain seated. The Secretary will announce the result.

The Secretary -Ayes, 65; Noes, 50.

The Chairman - Mr. Latson's amendment is adopted.

Mr. Harawitz - Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman - Mr. Harawitz.

Mr. Harawitz - I now offer my amendment to Section 2.

Mr. Reeves - Mr. Chairman.

Mr. D. Nicoll - Mr. Chairman, does not the question occur on Mr. Marshall's amendment?

Mr. Marshall - What is that?

The Chairman - The section was adopted.

Mr. Marshall - I now move Section 5.

Mr. Unger - Mr. Chairman, I wish to offer an amendment.

Mr. J. G. Saxe - Mr. Chairman, I rise to a point of order. Section 4 has not been approved.

The Chairman - The gentleman from New York has not been recognized. The Chair understood the approval of Mr. Latson's amendment carried with it the approval of the entire section.

The Delegate - No.

The Chairman - The approval of Mr. Latson's amendment carried with it the approval of Section 4. Am I correct, Mr. Marshall?

Mr. Marshall - My proposed amendment has been voted out; I haven't any further interest in the subject.

Mr. Latson Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Barnes - Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman - Unless there is objection, Section 4 will be considered as

adopted. The Chair hears no objection, and it is so declared.

The Committee has now under consideration Section 5.

Mr. Reeves - Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman - The Chair recognizes Mr. Reeves.

Mr. Reeves-Two or three days ago the minority of the Committee on

Bill of Rights handed up a minority report.

Mr. Schurman - Mr. Chairman, I rise to a point of order.

The Chairman - The gentleman will state his point of order.

Mr. Schurman - It is impossible to hear what Mr. Reeves is saying on account of the noise.

The Chairman - The Chair hopes the Committee will be in order, and that the speaker will talk a little bit louder.

Mr. Reeves - Mr. Chairman, two or three days ago the minority -
The Chairman - The delegates will resume their seats.

Mr. Reeves - Two or three days ago the minority of the Committee on Bills of Rights handed up a minority report, and now I wish to hand up a proposed amendment to go with it, and in conformity with Mr. Marshall's suggestion, I ask that that amendment be given the first position with regard to Section No. 5, and I hope the amendment may be read first.

The Chairman - The gentleman will send his amendment to the desk. Mr. Reeves - I sent it.

The Chairman - The Secretary will read the amendment by Mr. Reeves.

The Secretary - By Mr. Reeves. Page 1, strike out all of line 10 after the period, and on page 2, strike out lines 1, 2, 3, and all on line 4 to and including the period, so that there shall be stricken out the entire sentence which reads as follows:

"On a conviction for a crime now punishable by death, the jury may by its verdict impose either the death penalty or life imprisonment, and in the latter event no pardon or commutation shall be granted unless the innocence of the person convicted be established."

The Chairman. The Chair will now receive all other amendments to Section 5.

Mr. Unger - Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman - The amendments will be received, so that the committee

may discuss intelligently just what changes are desired to be made.

Mr. Wagner - Mr. Chairman, may we have them read?

The Chairman - They will be read as submitted.

Mr. Unger - Mr. Chairman, I have already submitted an amendment which will fall in line with what Mr. Reeves suggested, and I think that it should be next in order.

Mr. Steinbrink - Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman Mr. Steinbrink.

Mr. Steinbrink - I have also submitted an amendment.

Mr. Eisner Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman - Mr. Eisner.

Mr. Eisner - I have submitted an amendment, and I suggest that the amendments be divided into two parts, those which affect the capital punishment feature of this section 5, and those which affect the balance of it. I think in connection with the capital punishment part, the amendments are all the same, and the discussion on them will last much longer than on the other amendments.

The Chairman - Mr. Marshall, is that agreeable to you?

Mr. Marshall - I did not hear.

The Chairman - The suggestion is made that the amendments be divided into two classes.

Mr. Marshall - I think that is very desirable.

The Chairman - Is there any objection?

Mr. Marshall - First, the capital punishment provision, and the next,

imprisonment for debt?

The Chairman - Yes.

Mr. Marshall - That is entirely desirable.

Mr. Betts- Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman - Mr. Betts.

Mr. Betts- I offer the following amendment.

Mr. Wagner - Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman - Mr. Wagner.

Mr. Wagner - I make the suggestion. Would it not be better for us to have each amendment as offered read, because otherwise you may have two or three amendments to accomplish the same result.

The Chairman The Secretary will read the amendments in their order. I assume that those who submit similar amendments will withdraw them?

Mr. Wagner - I know, but you save time the other way.

The Chairman - Are there any other amendments to be offered to the death penalty section?

Mr. Dahm - Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman - Mr. Dahm.

Mr. Dahm - I submit the following amendment.

The Chairman - The Secretary will read the amendments affecting the

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Mr. Winslow - I have already submitted an amendment, and I presume it is in the hands of the Secretary.

The Chairman If the delegate's name is on it, it will be read.

Mr. Winslow - Mr. Winslow, Westchester county.

The Secretary - By Mr. Harawitz, page 1, line 10, strike out the words "on a conviction" and on page 2 strike out lines 1, 2, 3 and 4 down to and including the word "established".

By Mr. Gladding - Page 1, line 10, strike out all after the period; page 2, strike out lines 1, 2, 3 and all of line 4 to and including the period.

By Mr. Brenner - On page 2, between lines 7 and 8 insert "But this shall not be construed to forbid the issue of a writ or order in the nature of a writ of ne exeat".

By Mr. Cullinan - Page 2, line 6, after the word "penalty" insert Mr. D. Nicoll - Mr. Chairman, the understanding was that we were to have only the amendments which referred to the first part of the section.

The Chairman - The Chair understands that. The Chair has requested the Secretary to disregard that. The Chair will disregard the amendment offered by Mr. Brenner at this time and we will take it up when we reach the section which it relates to.

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The Secretary - By Mr. Cullinan, page 2, line 6, after the word penalty The Chairman - That also relates to the second.

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Mr. Cullinan I will withdraw that for the present.

The Secretary - Page 2, lines 3 and 4, strike out

The Chairman -What is the name on that?

The Secretary (continuing) - Strike out the words "and in the latter event no pardon or commutation shall be granted unless the innocence of the person convicted be established.

The Chairman - What delegate offered that?

Mr. Baldwin - Mr. Chairman, I believe that is my amendment.

The Secretary - By Mr. Baldwin.

By Mr. Unger - Page 1, line 10, strike out the words in italics. Line 1,

page 2, strike out the words in italies. Line 2, page 2, strike out the words "its verdict impose either the death penalty or" and insert after the word

"

or", on line 2, page 2, the words "No crime shall hereafter be punish

able by death and in case of the imposition of the punishment of ".

Page 2, line 3, strike out the words "and in the latter event".

By Mr. Winslow. Strike out, page 1, line 10, the words in italics. Strike out the words in lines 1, 2 and 3, and all the words in line 4 to and including the word "established", on page 2.

By Mr. Betts - Section 4, page 5, after

The Chairman - Mr. Betts, does the amendment relate to Section 4, the death penalty?

Mr. Betts - Yes.

The Secretary - Page 5, after the last line, insert the following: Section 4, Article I of the Constitution, is hereby amended by inserting therein a new section to be properly numbered and to be submitted separately to the people at the same time as the proposed new Constitution, which section shall read as follows:

"On a conviction for murder in the first degree the penalty shall be life imprisonment and no pardon or commutation shall be granted unless the innocence of the person convicted be established. The provisions of this section shall be controlling, any other provision of this Constitution to the contrary notwithstanding."

By Mr. Dahm. Page 1, line 10, strike out the words in italics. Page 2, strike out lines 1, 2, 3 and 4 to and including "establish" and insert "capital punishment is forever abolished ".

The Chairman - The Chair recognizes Mr. Reeves.

Mr. Reeves -- The Proposed Amendment is in the first place to make a jury optional system as to capital punishment and in the second place to strike out "capital punishment" altogether from the law of this State.

This is one of the most solemnly important questions that can be brought before this Convention. We cannot, Mr. Chairman and gentlemen (Gavel.)

make much progress in this matter by dwelling on the horror of capital punishment. Every moral and religious and esthetic sense and sensibility surrounding every person in this circle contemplates such punishment with abhorrence and wishes it never would have to be. It is the duty however of Constitution makers to regard the safety and the welfare of the people of the State of New York. To think of those who but for the death penalty might be the victims of the assassins, the highwaymen, the gangster, the gunmen, or the wretch who assaults and murders women in secret places. This I wish to lay down as an absolute axiom: If to do away with the death penalty in this State would cause one more murder than otherwise were to occur then we must not do away with it. Now in the first place, this is not a question for the Constitution. To put this Proposed Amendment into our fundamental law and crystalize it there would be a horrible calamity in case we found it did not work well and produced a riot of crime, because it would take three or four years to get rid of it. They have tried during the last year in no less than twenty two States of the Union to do away with capital punishment. They have succeeded in only one, and in not one of them have they tried to do so by the Constitution. This is a matter for our Penal Law that can be readily dealt with by the Legislature. The very people who are represented in this Convention and who want to get rid of capital punishment altogether ought not to wish that kind of amendment as proposed by the Committee on Bill of Rights, by a vote of 6 to 5, to go into the Constitution, because it prevents even an amendment for years that would bring entire abolition of punishment.

Now Mr. Chairman and gentlemen let us look at this proposal; this jury optional system of dealing with this horrible crime: It is substituting the

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