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whole evolvement of the world in the next decade. I would emphasize, for example, right now, a discussion of the fact that too much of the inflow of substantial revenues in some countries do not go to their people at all. In other words, bring forward the matter of a return for the people of the economic situation is a very important aspect of frank world discussion at this point. I think we will come through more in leadership of the peoples of the world by being willing to debate these issues openly and bringing them up and taking a strong affirmative position, as Ambassador Goldberg referred to, than in closing it off.

FORUM OF GENERAL ASSEMBLY Mr. GOLDBERG. Senator Javits, I think every U.N. ambassador, U.S. ambassador has tried desperately to get a consensus in the General Assembly. We have been much more successful in the Security Council where we are largely responsible for adopting the concept that the business of debating and dividing is not sensible, without first consulting and seeking a consensus. To try for consensus, is very difficult in the General Assembly, as you well know, from your own experience. Now, I would be opposed to changing the forum of the General Assembly. Let people talk, let them state their point of view, but as I said in my statement, don't allow the assembly to exceed its powers. On this we must take a firm stand.

It is true, as Ambassador Yost said, that we did violate the U.N. Charter on Rhodesian embargo, since we had voted for it in the Security Council, and our vote was not disapproved by the Congress when we did. However, there are violations and violations and the most fundamental violation is the question of membership because that relates, as I said, to the right to vote, franchise. The General Assembly has a right to put anything on the agenda for discussion. We cannot exclude that.

So it seems to me that we can live with it but it also seems to me we have a right to take the stand on the basic principle that a member cannot be excluded from deliberations. That I think we have a right to do.

Senator JAVITs. Ambassador Yost.

SEEKING A CONSENSUS RATHER THAN VOTING Mr. Yost. I would agree entirely with the suggestion that there be a substantial progress toward seeking consensus rather than voting. This is beginning to happen. These big conferences, like the Law of the Sea, nopulation, food, are conducted on the basis of consensus. This is perhaps one reason why, on the one hand, they move slowly and on the other, they don't move as far as we would like to see them move. But still it is probably under the circumstances a proper procedure. And I think it will be used gradually, very gradually in the Assembly. It won't hanpen quickly but it is the right goal to pursue. Consensus of the developed countries does exist in a substantial degree. We see the developed countries dealing with problems of foreign aid and with energy problems and so on, more and more in cases where the U.N. isn't acting and action is required. I think the developed countries will work together.

Now, I think in many cases, and energy may be an example, if common action by developed countries is carried too far, it becomes counterproductive because it provokes confrontation. It hardens, entrenches, the two sides in separate positions, though ultimately they are going to have to work together.

So I would agree there should be concensus. When it is absolutely impossible to get U.N. action on something that has to be acted on, let the developed countries move, but let them constantly try to extend the scope of U.N. action in order to include the wider membership, wider cooperation and greater concensus.

Senator Javits. Thank you, gentlemen.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The CHAIRMAN. Senator Clark.

FUND SUSPENSION BENEFITS TO UNITED STATES AND WORLD

Senator CLARK. Two questions.

First, to Justice Goldberg. Let me read just briefly from your testimony on pages 7 and 8 dealing with our possible boycott of the General Assembly. You say to make this demand credible the United States should make it clear before this proposal gains further momentum that if Israel is unlawfully denied its proper seat in the Assembly, the United States will not only vote against but if the Assembly, notwithstanding, persists, will not participate in the Assembly deliberations.

You go on to the next page to talk about the freeze of funds which you referred to just a moment ago. My question is this.

If the majority continues to hold its position after having voted Israel out, I assume that you would recommend that we hold our position, that we not back down at that point. My question is this. What specific benefits to the United States and to the world will accrue from having made that decision?

Mr. GOLDBERG. Senator, in my opinion it will stop this attempt. The United States is a great power and its participation is essential, whether its viewpoint is agreed to or not, by the Assembly. The Assembly lacking the United States would not be a real Assembly and I think if that message is brought home, it will abort this movement to exclude Israel which is underway, stop it. The difficulty is with our policy. It seems to me that we are too hesitant about stating straightforwardly our position on the essential issue of membership. I emphasize membership. There are a lot of arguments whether one country has something or another country does something, in violation of the Charter, but with regard to the fundamental rights of a member state, that is a different story, and I think a clear position on our part will stop an attempt at the Assembly. I don't think we will have to go to the next step.

Senator CLARK. I think you are probably correct in that assumption if we made our position clear.

BENEFITS OF U.S. POSITION REGARDING THIRD WORLD COUNTRIES Let us suppose, as Senator Javits just said, that the Third WorldI am not sure this is true but let's assume it is true—that the Third World sometimes is willing to cut off its nose to spite its face. Let's suppose they did, nevertheless, continue that action and we had to keep our position. What would be the benefits to the United States and the world if that were the result?

Mr. GOLDBERG. I think, well, I would go the next step then, which is to say we will not pay our pro rata share of the expenses of an assembly which is improperly constituted, which to me is different from article 19. I think we have to be credible. If we say it we have to do it. Again, I can only assume, based upon my experience, if that were done it would stop it too.

Now, suppose the third world, and Senator Javits says OK, do it, well, I don't see much of a loss. We still are in the Security Council, so speeches will be made, recommendations will be made, as they are made now, you see, and we then await the day when the General Assembly rectifies its unconstitutional behavior.

CAN U.S. PROPOSALS BE SUPPORTED BY GENERAL ASSEMBLY MAJORITY?

Senator CLARK. My other question really is addressed to all of you, to anyone that might want to answer it.

I wanted to ask whether it is practical to assume our Government could take positive positions, could propose innovative, imaginative resolutions in the next General Assembly, positions that actually would be supported by the majority in the General Assembly? Are we in fact so far from our own revolution or so affluent that we really no longer have anything in common with the majority?

My question specifically is what could we propose at this General Assembly by way of commodity programs, by way of positions on South Africa and Rhodesia, what can we do of a positive nature that really would have majority support? It seems to me that would be the right direction to go in.

Mr. STASSEN. I think, Senator, you have got your finger on morals exactly about what should be done. That is, we should think through on our part how we might really take leadership for all of the peoples of the world. I think one of the keys to it is the matter of taking leadership for the peoples, as distinguished from the governments, of other nations. One of the things, for example, we ought to be in the forefront on is that the peoples of the world should be getting more of the economic benefits of the resources of the world.

We can speak up on that. We can really go at the matter of the way many dictatorships in the world have been handling their governments and handling their people and really take a moral leadership that is also a sound economic and financial leadership and seeking to gain the leadership of these developing countries. Really we have more in the basics of the American system to offer them, to offer to the developing peoples as distinguished from their governments. There is a natural tendency to go too much with governments and not enough with advocacy of what are the results being obtained for the peoples in those countries. In that process we should recognize and emphasize that people under all forms of government ought to get better results for all of the people on an equality basis. You can say it is idealistic, but really the world has to move on an idealistic basis if it is to have its best chance of peace. I think you have raised a very important basic point of reanalysis of our approach.

Senator CLARK. We could really introduce the kind of resolution you are suggesting in the next Assembly that would get majority support,

that would be valuable in terms of identifying us with progressive movements in the world?

Mr. STASSEN. Right. Mr. Yost. Senator, it seems to me the problem is that we as a government have been very slow in recognizing and adapting ourselves to this new global economic situation we face and working out an approved government program for coping with it. So far we have picked out pieces and dealt with them mainly among the developed countries, in order to stave off immediate crisis. Until we make up our own minds, it is difficult to present something to the U.N. and seek support. We have to pull our socks up here in Washington and reach conclusions as to what we want, how we expect to proceed. Then we have to work up public support because, as you well know, most of these programs will cost money and this is difficult, too, these days. So a good deal of preliminary spadework has to be done in order to make these proposals, which I heartily agree should be made. Senator CLARK. Thank you very much.

HEARING PROCEDURE Senator PERCY (presiding). Thank you. Because of the number of questions I have in a number of areas, if it is possible to keep the answers as concise as possible, then anything you may want to expand on for the record can be added later.

VIEWS OF U.S. REBUTTAL TO U.N. ATTACKS I was most interested in Justice Goldberg's comments on page 4 of his testimony relating to the Commentary magazine article in which Ambassador Moynihan said we have been delinquent in not facing up to attacks at the U.N., forthrightly rebutting them and putting our policies in proper context.

Justice Goldberg said that Dr. Monyihan is mistaken in this regard.

Do the other three of you believe he is mistaken in that regard as a result of your own U.N. experience and knowledge?

Mr. Yost. Yes, I do indeed. I, like Justice Goldberg, have responded very frequently myself and I know Senator Lodge has and I know Adlai Stevenson did. There was never any reluctance to do so. I don't know how Moynihan got under this misapprehension. I would differ from him only in the suggestion that crops up in one or two places in the article, that he would engage in rather abrasive personalities in responding to criticism. I see little advantage in that. There is too much in the U.N. already. If you contribute you merely provoke a similar response and you worsen the discourse rather than improve it. So I think one should respond very firmly and clearly and in defense of our positions but not in a strident or vicious tone.

Mr. LODGE. The General Assembly is a forum and a forum is there to be used and if only one side is using the forum then the whole thing is twisted out of shape. So I think Mr. Moynihan is very correct that there has got to be a really solid debating. I am not talking about attacks and merely vicious cleverness, I mean the point of view of the people who disagree with us and who attack us ought to be analyzed and exposed in the best debating tradition.

Now, I agree with Ambassador Yost that to my knowledge the U.S. representative has always done that and done quite a good job,

and when it wasn't possible to rebut or reply on the spot we have issued statements to the press or television so there would be something about the U.S. point of view.

RESTRAINT QUESTIONED ON U.S. POLICY ATTACKS REBUTTAL Senator Percy. Ambassador Lodge, during your tenure at the U.N. did you ever restrain yourself from rebutting and putting our policies in proper context, or were you ever restrained by the Department even though you personally might have wanted to have replied to attacks on us?

Mr. LODGE. I was never restrained by the State Department for the very simple reason that President Eisenhower wanted me to rebut on the very same day. He didn't want the day to go by without there being something from the United States because he felt that nothing could sicken American public opinion quicker than the idea that we were being used for a punching bag in the U.N. and he wanted me to rebut on the same day. That is what I always tried to do.

Senator PERCY. Governor Stassen, do you agree or disagree with Dr. Moynihan's statement ?

MEDIA RESPONSE TO ATTACK AND REBUTTAL Mr. STASSEN. I think basically I disagree. I think where he got his impression is that the tendency is natural for the media to give more attention to the extreme attacks on the United States than upon the prompt response that almost always has been given in the United Nations. I think perhaps in that sense Ambassador Lodge, and I think Ambassador Goldberg and Ambassador Yost here were especially effective in making the newsworthy kind of responses. It is not important only to respond but to do it in a way that the media will give some attention to it.

MORATORIUM ON MUTUAL RECRIMINATION

Senator PERCY. In my own report on my experience at the United Nations, I drew certain conclusions. One of them was that I observed a tendency on our part, in the spirit of détente, to avoid criticism of the Soviet Union, even in areas such as human rights and fundamental freedom, where we disagree so sharply. It seems to me there is a moratorium on mutual recrimination. When we do have such obvious differences of opinion, do you feel it is a good idea for us to artificially mute those differences of opinion at the United Nations.

Mr. GOLDBERG. My answer is no you don't mute differences.

Mr. Yost. I agree we should not. I think a great deal of time during the cold war was wasted in accusation, rebuttal, counterrebuttal, and so on. That sometimes went on too long and was counterproducitve in its effect on the rest of the Assembly. So I would favor reducing these exchanges but certainly not eliminating them.

Mr. LODGE. When I first went there Stalin was still alive and the Russian theory was that World War III will destroy the United States but won't affect them at all, and Mr. Vyshinsky was giving that type of speech extremely violent, extremely vituperative, and we felt it was necessary to keep the record straight and we tried to do it.

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