did nothing more. He could not conceive that the establishment of an intermediate court of appeal would tend to increase appeals, as experience in this country, with respect to the court of exchequer chamber, proved directly the reverse. this measure proposed as a substitute the division into two chambers. If the division into three chambers was however an infringement of the act of union, it was perfectly clear, that the division into two chambers was also an infringement. He, howLord Eldon was of opinion that the pro- ever, could not conceive there was any posed division of the court of session into doubt that parliament had the power of three chambers was not consistent with the making enactments for the better regulation spirit of the act of union; he thought that of the court of session. It was a power remuch might be done by the mode proposed cognized by an act of the Scotch parliament, by the noble duke, by establishing two and reserved by the words inserted in the chambers, whilst, at the same time, the act article of the act of union. It would be ab. of union would not be infringed. His lord- surd to suppose that the court of session had ship examined different provisions of the the power which was acknowledged, of rebill, and contended that they were extreme-gulating their own proceedings, but that ly defective with respect to the directions given for resorting to trials by jury, and appeared to have been framed without a due consideration of the nature of pleadings in the court of session, which were so different to those adopted in the courts of law in Westminster-hall. He had considerable doubts respecting that part of the bill which related to trial by jury, and thought it would be better to separate it from the other. It was a most important subject, and called for the earnest and serious attention of their lordships. Lord Grenville thought it unnecessary for the noble and learned lord to remind their lordships that this subject demanded their earnest and anxious attention, as those by whom the measure had been brought forward had not failed to impress upon the house the great importance of the measure, and had earnestly solicited for all the assistance which could be derived for its completion, both in and out of that house. The greater part of the noble and learned lord's objections referred to particular provisions of the bill, which would be better discussed in the committee, and where it would be found that most of them had already been anticipated. No sufficient reason had, in his mind, been urged for dividing this bill into two, particularly after the subject had so long been under consideration. As to the objection that this measure was an infringement of the act of union, it did not appear to him to be in the least well founded. It was clear that there existed an absolute necessity for remedying the evils which resulted from the accumulation of business in the court of session more than that court could possibly get through, and the accumulation of appeals in that house. The necessity of some remedy was so evident, that those noble lords who objected to parliament had no paramount power over them. With respect to the trial by jury, the reasons which had been stated for not introducing it into Scotland appeared to him to be the best reasons for its introduction. Lord Melville declared himself friendly to the principle of diminishing the number of lords of session. He had formerly proposed a bill for diminishing their number to ten; but he confessed he thought the proposition of the noble lord for dividing them inta three chambers, much more preferable. He doubted, however, the propriety of establishing a court of review, which he thought an infringement of the act of union, whilst, at the same time, it would not tend to diminish the number of appeals to that house, as the litigants would still be anxious to appeal to the last resort. With respect to the trial by jury, he did not think it would be productive of those beneficial effects which were looked for by the proposers of the bill; it was ill suited to the habits of the people of Scotland, neither did they wish for its introduction. The Earl of Lauderdale quoted the 18th and 19th articles of union, for the purpose of proving that the present measure was no infringement upon that act, there being an express reservation that regulations might be adopted for the administration of justice, consistently with public policy, and for the evident utility of the subject. The division of the court of session into three chambers, and the establishment of a court of review, were questions of public policy, respecting which parliament had undoubtedly the power of deciding. The court of session had formerly established regulations by acts of sederunt for the more speedy administration of justice, and it were absurd to suppose that parliament had not the paramount power to enforce regulations for the better administration of justice. The introduction of the trial by jury formed part of the resolutions passed last session, and since that period no petition had been presented to the house from any part of Scotland against that part of the plan. He was therefore warrant ed in supposing that there was no objection to its introduction. delay, he could by no means agree to a delay which would, perhaps, be the meaushof putting off the trial of this case to the next session. He would agree to a delay of three or four weeks. The consideration of the Culross petition was then fixed for April 16-Lord John Thynne moved the order of the day for the second reading of the Bath Common division bill. Lord Ossulston opposed the motion, as the bill went to intertere with one of the principal and most airy walks of the invalids who resorted to Bath. He moved, as an amendment, that the bill be read a second time that day three months. The bill was defended by lord John Thynne, Mr. Palmer, and Mr. Hobhouse. A division took place; for reading the bill a second time now 49, against it 78, majority 29. A second division then took place on the question for reading the bill a second time that day three months: when there appeared for the motion 57, against it 49. The bill was of course lost by a majority of 8. The Earl of Mansfield, after modestly apologising for offering himself to the attention of the house upon such a subject, expressed himself of the same opinion with the noble lord (Melville), and cited an opinion delivered by that great lawyer, the earl of Mansfield, that the introduction of the trial by jury in Scotland, so far from being advisable, might be attended with much hazard in the experiment; so totally unsuited was it to the habits and prejudices of the people. The house then went into a committee pro forma, in which lord Eldon gave notice that he should, when they came to the clause relative to the trial by jury, move that it be omitted, for the purpose of having another substituted, better suited to answer | the desired purpose.-Progress was then reported, and the committee obtained leave to sit again on Wednesday. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Monday, March 16, [MINUTES.] Mr. Eyre, chairman of the committee appointed to try the merits of the petition complaining of an undue election for the borough of Guildford, reported, that Mr. Sumner was not duly elected, and that the petitioner, the hon. Chapple Norton, was duly elected; but that the opposition of Mr. Sumner to the petition was not frivolous or vexatious. The clerk of the crown was ordered to attend the next day to amend the return, by erasing the name of Mr. Sumner, and inserting that of Mr. Norton in its place. On the motion of Mr. Hobhouse, it was ordered that, at the rising of the house that day, lord Bruce, who had been taken into the custody of the serjeant at arms, in consequence of default at the election ballot, should be discharged, on paying his fees. On the motion of lord Temple, a new writ was ordered for the election of a member for the borough of Buckingham, in the room of sir W. Young, who had accepted the of fice of governor of the island of Tobago. Mr. Courtenay moved, that the order for the consideration of the Culross election pètition, be deferred to the 16th of May. Sir J. Anstruther said, that though the sitting member was willing agree to a reasonable VOL. IX. [SLAVE TRADE ABOLITION BILL.] Lord H. Petty moved the order of the day for the third reading of the Slave Trade Abolition bill. Mr. Hibbert rose and said:-I do not rise, sir, with the vain hope of changing, by any observations of mine, the determination which the house has expressed, in a manner so decided, upon this question, but rather with an anxious wish to record an opinion, grounded on consistent principles, and unaltered by any thing which I have heard upon a subject so interesting and important. In adherence to consistency, which, rather than popularity, is my object, I shall appear to differ more with the prevailing sentiment of the house than some of my hon. friends have done, who have yet united with me in opposition to this measure; for, after the concessions which they have made upon the points of legality, humanity, and justice, I do not see how we can sit down and deliberate upon the policy and expediency of keeping open the trade; we fall, too, in so doing, under the censure of the hon. member for Bedford, (Mr. Whitbread) who thinks that in the debate we have "givén too much into cool discussion." In which. reprehension he includes, I presume, the noble lord (Howick) who introduced the bill into the house, and the noble lord (H. Petty) who sits upon the same bench, and who certainly did not, either of them, encourage that declamatory tone which has too much prevailed in this debate. The hon. member himself took care not to copy their I error, for he asked us whether it was neces- tion of the hon. gent. (Mr. Whitbread) I sary that we should prove that robbery and will just notice. "All has been assertion," murder are unlawful? Certainly we need not he says, on our side, against facts proved trouble the hon. gent. for such proof, but it on theirs" I did not expect this remark might have been as well if he had shewn from the hon. gent. or from those who vote how robbery and murder are to be prevented with him on this subject; for I contend, on by this bill; in what sense it is calculated to the contrary, that the main facts on which do good rather than mischief, to confer the question depends have been asserte:1 benefits adequate to the evils it inflicts, and over and over again on their side, and never the risques it imposes upon humanity. The proved. I allude more particularly to their hon. member has intimated a conjecture, assertions, that the wars, and cruelties, and that the crimes attendant upon the Slave miseries of Africa, are caused by, and deTrade in the West Indies have provoked the pendant upon, the European resort thither judgments of God, and that the hurricanes for slaves: and here I will not merely opto which those climates are subject are the pose assertion to assertion, but challenge insignals of his vengeance. Sir, there is much vestigation, and ask them where, if the moral and physical evil in the world, but it proof they alledge exists, that proof may be is a bold and rash attempt in any mortal to found? In their pamplets and publications, impute that evil as a judgment of Providence though again and again they assume it as upon the heads on which it may chance to proved, I cannot find it, nor does the proof fall. Where an individual perishes in the lie in the documents which have been proactual commission of a crime, we may be duced on your table. They pretend to value allowed to draw a profitable lesson from so facts only, and to disregard opinions; but striking an incident; but where calamities opinions are not, in all instances, to be disconsistent with the course of nature extend regarded, nor are the authorities in our stathemselves over arge districts, and afflict tute-book to be treated with disrespect. I persons of various descriptions, there is do confess, sir, that when a right hou. gent. something peculiarly rash in pronouncing (Mr. G. Rose) on the other side, produced a that the sufferers are the victims of divine detailed account not only of all the acts, but justice. I am better acquainted with the of the proceedings of parliament, with the history of Jamaica than with that of any opinions of committees of this house, so deother island in the West Indies. Jamaica cidedly and so repeatedly expressed upon has been for 20 years free from hurricanes, the subject of the slave trade, illustrating that period no way marked by a forbearance and explaining, as he read it, the characters as to the purchase or labour of slaves In 4 of those who introduced and sanctioned years, nearly successive, hurricanes have vi- those proceedings, I did think that the acctsited that island, and have specially deso mulated authority thus concentrated and lated one of its districts-that district and brought into a focus, was calculated to make those years not chargeable with any extraor so.ne impression upon this house, and pardinary concern with the slave trade. Those ticularly upon its junior members, who calamities have swept away large fleets of might thence be induced to doubt and hesiBritish ships returning from conquest over tate at least, and not to remain so confident the enemies of their country, in nowise par- in opinion as to treat with disregard, nay ticipating in the slave trade; and, what is almost with contempt, the sentiments and still more worthy of remark, I do not find arguments of those who yet adhere, with a that any corresponding judgment has, at lingering attachment, to the monuments of those periods, fallen upon British legislators the wisdom of our ancestors, to the delibeand states.sen, the authors and promoters of rate judgment of men, with whom I will not the slave trade, who, as I shall shew, did say that I would rather sometimes go wrong not make their acts of parliament in igno- than always right with others, but of whom rauce, but knew well what they were I will say that their talents and virtues have doing; neither upon them, nor upon the not been exceeded by those of their succesnation whose affairs they administered, did sors. Sir, it is impossible that we can presuch judgments aitach; but, on the contrary, tend, that upon this subject they legislated the era in which the slave trade was autho- in ignorance. The abuses of the slave trade fized and encouraged by the British legis-were more flagrant at its commencement lature was one of distinguished prosperity than in its progress. It began on the part in that country, one in which she became of the English with acts of violence and rathe envy of the world.-Another observa- | pine. Of those acts it is well known that queen Elizabeth expressed her disapproba- | travel in Africa, and even doubt upon the tion; and in the year 1711, queen Anne, subject? How is it possible? unless indeed in recommending the subject to the attention it should prove that we at this distance from of parliament, directs, that they shali en- the scene are deceived by partial views of quire into the "nature of the trade." But what, when regarded near and entire, wears are not the acts of parliament themselves, another appearance, and produces another and their preambles, quite sufficient to prove effect. Yet is it nevertheless true, that that our ancestors were at variance with us Bruce and Parke, their minds unprejudiced in the first principles of the question? When on the subject, or if biassed at all, expethey thought fit to encourage an " African riencing a bias against the trade, have eslave trade," for the purpose of "supplying turned, the one from the East, the other the West India colonies with slaves," was not from the west of the negro country; Parke this the whole of that proceeding, which intimating his doubts* whether the abolition we now pronounce to be ontrary to justice, of the trade would answer the views of its humanity, and sound policy? Put the case promoters; and Bruce, in the strongest merely thus, and say nothing of any cir- terms, deprecating the measure.†-I have cumstances not necessarily and indispensably before mentioned, on the authority of Mr. connected either with the purchase of slaves Parke himself, that I believe his book to in Africa, with their conveyance to the express, in this respect, his own sentiments, West Indies, or with their maintenance and not those of his editor, Mr. Bryan Edthere as slaves on our plantations, and let wards: and Mr. Edwards, sir, when he me ask the young members who have heard edited that book, was either an abolitionist, the declamations which this debate has oc- or at least wavering in his opinions. He casioned, whether here be not the sum and was a man of much genius and ability; if substance of that abominable crime which his talents had been cultivated in another dithey are about to abolish? Our ancestors rection, he would probably have been an indeed distinguished betwixt the trade and eminent poct or orator, but an orator, I its abuses: that they tolerated, these they think, rather excelling in the rhetorical reprobated; a sufficient proof of which is than in the logical beauties of the art. He afforded by the act of 23 Geo. II. c. 31, was, upon commercial subjects, and more which, in its preamble, authorises the trade particularly on the subject of the slave and its application to the West Indies; but, trade, of vacillating opinions; and the West in one of its provisions, enacts penalties India body, who always respected his abiupon its abuses-abuses which it pronounces lities, could seldom depend upon the deto be" to the prejudice of the said trade." terminations of his judgement. When, in a It is in vain then for us to say that we are former debate, I connected the statements of not completely at issue with our ancestors Parke with the comment with which Mr. upon this question, or that we know any Malthus has accompanied them, I expressly thing which they did not know, when they said (not knowing then that Mr. Makhus gave repeated legal sanction to that which had published any opinion about the Slave we seek to abolish.-There are also, sir, Trade) that I was not able to say whether other opinions which I am inclined to treat that gentleman was or was not a friend to with respect-opinions founded upon facts abolition; but the principle he has advanced, and observations made in the midst of those and the reasoning he has introduced on this very scenes of disgust and horror, which it subject, remain unaltered; and when be is the professed object of this bill to prevent: states that the population of Africa is conand again let me ask those who have atten- tinually passing beyond the means of its tively listened to the pathetic representations subsistence, and that the condition of the made in the course of this debate, whether negro nations will experience no ameliorathey can conceive it possible that two per- tion until industry and security of property sons, neither slave traders nor West India be introduced among them, these circumproprietors, but impartial, enquiring travel- stances appear to me to bear strongly upon Ters, should penetrate into the interior of this question. I shall be told that industry Africa, be witnesses of what is passing there, and security of property cannot find their and of the condition of its inhabitants, and way into Africa until the Slave Trade be yet come away, the one doubting whether abolished; but those who look for an aboan abolition of the slave trade would answer any good purpose, the other expressly disapproving that measure? What! live and * Parke's Travels, 4to. p. 287, 298. † Bruce, 4to. vol. I. p. 32. speaking of the part of the African coast visited by him, tells us, that the negro nations are often at war, that they sell slaves to different nations," and some to the Christians, since they began to trade with that country," evidently shewing, that when the Christians entered into the commerce, they found it already established and extensive.-I build then, sir, my sentiments upon this question in part upon these authorities: and finding nothing in divine or human law which pronounces the possession, or the purchase, or the use of a slave, to be necessarily and invariably unjust, I cannot see either the obligation or the policy of abolishing that share of the Slave Trade which at present exists for the supply of our own colonies. If I were now to deliberate concerning any society, whether slavery should enter into its constitution, I should say ; 66 Certainly not." If I were laying down regulations, and framing laws for an infant political establishment, I would take into my consideration all the original and abstract rights of man, for such rights do exist, and ought to be venerated, although they cannot often be applied with practical benefit to societies that have long existed under establish lition of the Slave Trade in Africa by a British act of parliament, seem to me to shut their eyes upon the lessons of history and experience. I will not travel over again the ground I have trodden. I have before stated my opinion, that the little information which we can glean of the state and condition of Africa, before the resort thither of Europeans for colonial labourers, has been either kept back or misrepresented in the publications of the abolitionists; and, when a right hon. gent. (Mr. Rose) alluded to what Leo Africanus relates to us concerning Negro Land, the hon. gent. (Mr. Wilberforce) who has interested himself so much in this question, appeared to me to promise us some comments upon the page of Leo. I shall not have an opportunity of observing upon what may fall from the hon. gent. on this subject, and I am not sure whether bis usual ingenuity may not extract from Leo some passages which, in his opinion, favour his own views of the question; but I challenge him to contradict this result, that from the whole tenor of Leo's seventh book, which treats of the negro nations, it appears that before the resort of the Portuguese to the coast could have affected the condition of the interior, wars, both for dominioned laws. But we are not now in the case of and plunder, originating as frequently, and debating whether our colonies shall or shall from as slight provocations as they do now, not be cultivated by slaves. from Africa were common throughout Negro Land; they are and ever have been so cultivated; that the captives taken in those wars were and we know at least that their prosperity either condemned to slavery, to imprison- has been hitherto dependant upon occasional ment, or to death; that the condition of supplies of the same description of importthat slavery was in many instances most ed population. All the rest is experiment cruel and oppressive; that extensive markets merely, and theory, contradicted too by all for slaves were then open, and that to the that we know from fact and experience. Moors and to the eastern countries the sale When I before took occasion to observe the of slaves was extensive; that in some in- inconvenience of adopting in politics a rule stances the African Princes invited and even so rigid that we would profit by nothing in forced the Slave Trade, refusing to pay in this world that was connected with vice and gold for what they bought, and compelling abuse, the hon. gent. (Mr. Wilberforce) told the merchants, much against their will, to me, that "this was ever our way; we take slaves in return for their merchandize; wanted to let the Slave Trade pair off with and that slaves were at that day so plentiful, some other tolerated crime." Sir, I do not and horses for the purposes of war so valu- find myself reduced to the miserable expeable, that fifteen or twenty slaves were gi- dient of defending one abuse by another. ven for one horse. This I assert to be a fair I shewed how inapplicable these strict drawn abstract of what we gather from Leo, pre- rules must prove to the state of the world mising, however, that I am not able to we live in, and that, if we would be rigidread the original Arabian, nor have I ever ly bound by such principles, we must have met with the Italian translation made by neither lotteries nor alehouses; but I did Leo himself. I have, however, compared not say that, consistently with the present the Latin Elzevir translation with a French condition and circumstances of this country, translation published at Lyons, in the six-it was expedient that we should abolish eiteenth century, and they correspond in all essential respects. A voyager almost contein; orary with Leo, is Cademosta, who in ther lotteries or alehouses: why then does the hon. gent. taunt me with the charge that I have not attempted to check those evils ? |