upon it deliberately, and he trusted wisely. The consequences of a storm he should not be apprehensive about; but these gradual approaches were dangerous, because each by itself was not deemed worthy of notice. It should be considered, however, that even if they were little in themselves, their consequences were not so. For his own part, he was satisfied that if parliament allowed their accumulation, it would ultimately have that extorted from its weakness, which its wisdom would be desirous to withhold.

at least more loudly complained of. Why, gradually increasing; and was much more then, the question was simply this, whether formidable, thus stealing on by degrees, the legislature would give up the protestant than if it were fairly exposed in all the ascendancy in Ireland, or whether they magnitude to which it seemed intended would make a stand, and say, "We have that it should arrive. In that case, the noalready done every thing that toleration re- tice of parliament would be strongly attracquires and that the catholics have a right ted to the subject; it would take it up in an to demand?" Undoubtedly, such a declara-extensive point of view; it would determine tion would be the dictate of sound policy and discretion. In one of his statements the noble lord had palpably contradicted himself; for, in the first place, he endeavoured to make the house believe, that the army and navy were crowded with catholics, and then he recommended that they should have a free admission. With respect to the proposition for the free exercise of religion, it was unnecessary; for if it were thought proper, his majesty might introduce such a regulation in the articles of war. But if it were to be made the subject of a legislative 'provision, the utmost confusion must ensue. One soldier would go to a methodist's chapel, another to a presbyterian conventicle, a third to a roman catholic church; in short to every place of worship but a protestant one; for it was curious enough, that there was to be no legislative provision for the protestants to go to the church of England. But, if all this confusion would take place in the army, what must happen in the navy? The noble lord had declared that he apprehended no inconvenience from this unprecedented toleration in the navy. No inconvenience! Suppose the captain and crew of a man of war were roman catholics, they must have a roman catholic clergyman-(A cry of no! no!)-Why, as a captain of a man of war had a right to appoint his chaplain, if he were a roman catholic, he would scarcely appoint a protestant clergyman. Perhaps it was intended that this should be determined by the admiralty board. But it would be difficult for that board accurately to ascertain the proportion in a crew between the catholics and the protestants. This too he would maintain, that, in case of any invasion of Ireland by a French force, the commander of which should issue a proclamation in support of the roman catholic religion, that invasion would not be so ygourously repelled by a roman catholic captain and crew, as by a protestant captain and crew. These were considerations which ought to excite the jealousy and apprehension of the house and of the country; but he was not so anxious to call their attention to the particular measure now proposed as to the principle of innovation which was

Lord Temple said, that he considered it a misfortune to have heard the speech that had been delivered by the hon. and learned gent. who had just sat down: he could not help saying, that it appeared to him to savour much of opinions long since obsolete, and to breathe a kind of spirit fitter for the darker ages, than for the liberal and enlightened times in which we at present lived. Was it necessary at this time of day to go into formal proof of the impolicy, the madness of intolerance? Was it necessary now to prove, that it ever defeated its own end, and contributed to establish what it had conspired to overthrow? He hoped that it was not, and yet the speech of the hon. and learned gent. would lead the house to suppose, that that gentleman himself entertained doubts of a truth, he might say, universally assented to, and confirmed by the successive experience of ages. He would ask the hon. and learned gent. if it were wise, just or politic, to exclude the brave fellows who made up a considerable portion of our navy and army, from the advantages and the glory of the service, when they shared in all its dangers? It was not usual in so early a stage of a bill to go into all its merits, and he should not now do so; he could not however abstain from entering his solemn protest against the revival of all those intolerant bigotries, which had in all times been productive of the most mischievous effects. The hon. and learned gent. had insinuated gloomy predictions in case of the enemy affecting a landing in Ireland. Upon what were these apprehensions founded, but the evils which the proposed bill purposed to

remove; by removing the evil, the discontent so much dreaded by the learned gent would no longer exist. It had been said too, that if so much was given to the catholics, they would require all; they would not stop here, nor be satisfied till the established church of Ireland was a roman catholic one. But to this argument he considered it a sufficient answer to say, that all that was asked in the present instance was a boon of a limited extent; and that was only in case of more being asked, or being attempted to be granted, that the hon. and learned gent's. argument would have its effect. In short, the whole question reduced itself to this, whether the exact boon now asked, was such as, if granted, could render the catholics, either in this country or Ireland, the objects of jealousy or distrust? In vain would it be to expect allegiance from those, who were, at the same time, told, that they were unfit to enjoy the benefits of that allegiance; or to look for attachment from those, who were not to receive any support from the government of the country.

sion. As to the roman catholics of this country, they had undergone the purgation of centuries, and must be considered as good and loyal subjects. He saw no necessity for introducing the present bill, and particularly that clause which went to authorise to all persons in the army and navy, not of the communion of the church of England, the free exercise of their religious worship; for he had never heard any practical difficulty stated, or any real ground of complaint respecting catholic officers and men being prohibited from attending divine worship in their own way; and he had personally known some catholic officers in the army, who had made no difficulty of going with their division to church. When the Reformation first took place the catholics made no objection to attend the worship, but only the sacraments of the church of England; for although the protestant church expunged and rejected what it considered as erroneous, still it retained a part of the formularies made use of in the church of Rome; he therefore saw no serious grievance existing which required to be remedied by an act of parliament; and he really thought it was much better policy not to attempt to remedy the grievance in this way, which ought not to be resorted to without a cause of strong ne cessity.

Mr. Yorke approved of the principle, of the bill proposed, as applied to the roman catholics of England; but it was a distinct question how far it should apply to Ireland. He did not think it fair that the roman catholics in Ireland should have any advantages Mr. Montague declared, that he consider over those in any other parts of the empire. ed whatever related to the protestant religion, His hon. and learned friend's speech did not as distinguished from the roman catholic, to appear to him to have deserved the severe be of serious importance to this country, animadversion to which it had been sub and that the preservation of the protestant jected by the noble lord who had spoken establishment was essentially requisite to last. The noble lord had objected to that maintain the peace both of this country and speech as mare worthy of the darker Ireland. Upon the subject of religion, the ages. No one who knew the great talents house had two principles to look to; the and enlightened mind of his hon. and learn- first was that of toleration, without which ed friend could suppose that any speech of nothing could go on well in a country; and his could deserve such a description. The next to this was the security of the establishsentiments his hon. and learned friend had ment. He was afraid, from the arguments uttered, were those of 1688, and he wished which had been adduced by the noble lord to know if the noble lord thought the times who had introduced this measure, that sithat placed the house of Hanover on the milar innovations would be pressed upon the throne of these realms were the darker ages. house, and would at last proceed so far as He agreed entirely with his hon. and learn- to render it impossible for parliament to ed friend as to the necessity of putting at maintain the tests which experience had length some limits to those daily innovations proved to be so useful. The same sort of on the church of England establishment. arguments would go to admit all dissenters He did not wish to revive unpleasant re-into all offices and places of public appointmembrances, but, at the same time, as it was impossible to forget the spirit of insurrection which prevailed amongst the Irish catholics in the year 1798, so it must not be wondered at, if feelings of considerable jealousy were excited on the present occa

ment, even those which a large majority of that house, formerly, and which the nation at large had considered as dangerous to the religious establishment of the country. The constitution of this country and a church establishment were so interwoven with each

not to be found as furious polemics in the mob, as among those who had graduated ? As to any obstruction given to the roman catholics in the exercise of their religion, he did not believe it. He asked of gentlemen on the other side, if they knew a sin

Mr. Fremantle declared, that in his view of the subject, the measure now proposed did not bear upon the constitution of the country. There was no clause in this bill that went to provide for the establishment of the catholic clergy, either in the army or navy. It did not militate either against the bill of rights or the act of settlement, and he should feel sorry if such an impression as this were made upon the public mind.

other, that the one could not be affected without endangering the other. He, there fore, for one, would consent to toleration so far only as it did not tend to endanger the establishment, and he was entirely of opinion with his hon. and learned friend near him, that they had already gone far enough,gle instance of such obstruction? [Here and that any further innovation would be Sir John Newport distinctly answered in the unnecessary; for what was the argument of affirmative]. It might be so; but he conthe noble lord? It was an argument founded fessed he had his doubts. He must again upon the anomaly between the two reli- advert to the attempts which he perceived gions. This argument proved too much, for were made to put him down. But gentleif this bill was proposed to remedy this ano- men little knew him if they expected to maly, then would the innovation grow succeed in such attempts. He would raise. greater and greater every day, until the ano- his voice and speak the sentiments of an homaly was destroyed by putting the two reli- nest and independent member of parliagions precisely on the same footing; by re- ment. He had now said what he had to pealing the bill of rights, and the test act. say upon this question, and gentlemen had As to the terms daiker ages,' he, for his defeated their own purpose; for if they bad part, did not think that the persons who pre-not so interrupted him, he should have sat fered the protestant religion had darker un- down much sconer. derstandings than those who thought all religions equal. As to the operation of the bill proposed, his learned friend was about to put the case of a ship commanded by a roman catholic captain, but as he was di verted from it, he should beg leave to put it for him:-The captain is a catholic; his crew partly roman catholics. Well; the captain brings a catholic priest on board, nay, not one priest (for he is not to be limited), but a dozen of them, perhaps; and what is the consequence? The priests disseminate their popish doctrines through the ship some are converted, some not; disunion is thus bred among the seamen; and, instead of preparing to beat the common enemy, they turn against one another, and fall to controversial preaching-(loud laughter). It was not a thing to laugh at: he would assure the gentlemen that it required more serious consideration. He could not help alluding to the levity of certain gentlemen opposite. He was the more surprised to see his noble friend among them (lord Howick), but he was sure the noble lord would be far from intending him any personal incivility. But, as to the popularity of the measure it self, he could not help warning ministers of urging upon the people an innovation of such popular odium. He reminded ministers of the riots of 1780, and cautioned them to beware of similar consequences. The noble lord, little as he seemed to feel this warning, would not be quite so indifferent if his house were burned to the ground (a laugh). Why! was he to be told that the rage of controversy was to be confined to doctors of divinity (a laugh) ? Were there

Mr. T. W. Plummer said, this measure appeared to him to be one which called for the serious attention of the house. The country had been deprived for a long time of the services of a large body of people, and now that a fair opportunity offered for granting the present boon, he trusted the time was come, when no honest catholic would be deprived of the opportunity of serving his country.

Mr. Corry lamented, that upon the introduction of this measure, an alarm should have been raised, as if it would draw the protestant establishments of England and Ireland into danger. He hoped gentlemen would come to the consideration of this question without prejudice. It was a question of importance, and its tendency was to prevent the natives of Ireland from being banished from the ranks of military fame and glory at home, and being drawn into the service of foreign countries. This measure went to secure their services at home, and ought therefore to be examined upon its own merits. The principles of the revolution ought always to be held in the greatest veneration; but when the house looked to the

catholics now were. The Irish roman catholics had at present every thing which they could reasonably wish for their property was secure; provision was made for the education of their priests; the military and legal professions were opened to them; in short, they had every thing they could wish for, excepting political power. Ought they, then, to be insensible of the blessings they enjoyed, or ungrateful for the benefits they possess under the best of sovereigns, merely because they did not possess political power?

objects of that revolution, there would be found to be two principal objects in view, namely, the religious and civil liberties of the country. With respect to the latter, he trusted they would never be attended to by a British parliament, and that that house would look with incessant jealousy to any measure that tended to overthrow the liberties of the country; but, with respect to the other object, the protestant religion, it should be remembered, that the question was then, whether a popish house should sit upon the throne? But would any man pre-It had been the wisdom of our ancestors to tend, that there was a similar danger now? or that the popish religion was ever likely to gain such an establishment in parliament, as to endanger the protestant religion? He was sure that such danger was remote indeed; and that in the present measure, no seintilla of danger of this sort was likely to arise; and he also trusted, that the house would not partake of that alarm, which the hon. and learned gent. had endeavoured to

create.

Mr. I. H. Browne thought certainly that gentlemen should not be too hasty to take an alarm, till they saw the bill. But with regard to the catholic religion, he considered its spirit to be as hostile to the liberties of this country, as any arbitrary power could be. He trusted that there was no dread of any foreign conqueror; but should a succesful and formidable usurper, who has cemented tyranny wherever he has gone, penetrate to Ireland, and avail himself of the Pope's ball, for the re-establishment of the catholic religion in that country, he could not think, that additional indulgences would ensure the loyalty of that body. He was far from thinking that concession after concession would conciliate the affections, or ensure the obedience of the Irish catholics. He foresaw considerable danger from these concessions, as they tended to prepossess the minds of the catholics with expectations of still farther concessions. He was averse to innovations, unless an existing evil could be proved, which could not be remedied but by law; but in the present instance, he was not aware that any such practical inconvenience existed. Unless the house was prepared to go the length of saying, that every office in the united kingdom was to be open to persons of all religions, he could see no good argument for advancing catholics to the highest appointments in the army. He should, however, have no objection to put all the roman catholics in the united kingdom upon the same footing as the Irish

restrain the executive power from conferring the highest offices upon roman catholics, and we ought to revere their memories, and also to do justice to posterity, by maintaining the fences which our ancestors had erected.

Lord Howick in reply, said, he had hoped that his motion for introducing the bill would have passed without any discussion. He wished this question to be treated on its own merits. He did not consider it as standing upon the ground of toleration; but that it rested on the footing, that, in consequence of what had formerly passed in the Irish parliament, it was necessary to make the laws in the two countries consistent with themselves, and not to suffer the catholics to be in that anomalous situation in which no people were ever placed before. He saw no reason for that alarm which some hon. gentlemen had endeavoured to create; for, as to this measure, it could be attended with no danger to the religion or establishment of the country. He could not concur in opinion with the hon. and learned gent., that if a person in the army was called out in obedience to the order of his superior, and at the peril of his life, that therefore he could not incur any penalty under possible circumstances; he could not subscribe to the hon. and learned gent's exposition of the law, particularly on the subject of compulsory service, and more especially when he recollected the opinion which that hon. and learned gent. had formerly given on the subject of the volunteers. The Irish act of parliament could only regulate the army of Ireland; and if an Irish regiment removed to England, it was then upon the English establishment, to which the acts of the Irish parliament could not extend, and consequently its officers were subject to all the penalties which a British legislature had enacted. But, from the moment of the union taking place between the two countries, and when there was no longer an Irish army, but the army of the united kingdom, C

and to which the acts of the united parlia- | stirred up division ? Was it not rather, on ment can alone extend, he doubted whether the contrary, that a certain person (somethe Irish catholic could receive any commis- what in the spirit which had discovered itself sion in the army. He acknowledged, that, that night) had made use of inflammatory de fucto, the catholics did hold commissions, language, which had produced the fatal but it was contrary to existing laws; and effect? When his hon. friend spoke of the although no advantage had been taken of danger to which this house might be expothis breach of the law, he would ask, sed, he had only to request of his hon. whether it was fair to place the catholics in friend not to promote that danger, by unnesuch a situation, and to pass that over by cessary alarms: for himself he entertained connivance, which the law forbad, instead no such apprehensions. After the extincof giving it a legal sanction? The hon. and ticn of the riots in 1780, when liberty was learned gent. had professed himself a friend granted to the catholics, and when the to the principle of toleration; but toleration, question of similar concessions with the to be complete, must be free from any ex- present was agitated in that house, no such clusion whatever, and the only true princi- consequences ensued; nor would they, at ple of exclusion, on account of religious the present, unless the spirit of bigotry opinions, was, when these opinions were should again excite false alarins of dangers, connected with political principles hostile without reality, so as to excite an attack to the state; but when this ceased to exist, upon men's lives and properties. He declahe would contend that then all disqualifica- red no man was a more sincere friend to tions ought to cease: The hon. gent. who the protestant church of England than spoke last had contended, that the catholics himself; but he did not think that the best were only excluded from political power, way of supporting it was by pains, penalbut was not that an important object? For, ties, and exclusions; but on the contrary, how could civil rights be secured to any con- by moderation and candour. The present siderable degree, without the possession of he considered to be a beneficial measure, political power? And must not such persons and that not only to the catholics but to as were disqualified from the acquisition of the country at large, and on the principle political power, feel discontented? And of general advantage; nor did he consider ought such exclusions to be considered as that there was any thing diigraceful in manecessary, unless when danger would arise king concessions, when occasion required. from conferring them? But in granting the He only wished this measure might underpresent boon, no such danger would arise. go a fair examination, being convinced that The Irish parliament had already sanctioned the result of free discussion always was, that the measure, and formed the precedent. It the cause of truth would flourish and prevail. was true, that Irish catholics might at pre--The noble Lord then moved for leave sent enter as soldiers and sailors; but a clause in this bill was provided to grant them security for the free exercise of their religion, and it would afford the catholic officers a greater facility of recruiting for the army When his hon. friend (Mr. Montague) had carried his alarm so far as to doubt whether this bill would not change the navy into a religious disputing club, and that when all hands where piped, the ship would become a scene of religious controversy; he must say that he could not treat such an argument with his accustomed gravity; but it was reserved for this night's debate to assert that the way to excite religious debate was to soften down differences. His hon. friend had reminded the house of the year 1790, and the fires which were then lighted up. He well remembered that disgraceful scene: but what was the cause? Was it in consequence of the catholics having had new privileges granted them, that they

and navy.

to bring in the bill as stated in the motion; which was agreed to without a division. The bill was read a first time and ordered to be read a second time this day se'inight.

[COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY PRUSSIAN SUBSIDY.]-Mr Hobhouse brought up the Report of the Committee of Supply. On the resolution for granting 80,000l. to make good a like sum granted to the King of Prussia,

Mr. Bankes, regarding this grant as the first instalment of a subsidy to Prussia, and regarding subsidies, though they might be wise in some circumstances, as very generally unwise, felt himself bound to state his sentiments at some length. He would recal the attention of the house to the subsidies granted since the commencement of the late war, every one of which it was thought hard to refuse at the time, but every one of which had altogether failed of