principles which juridical writers express sent, should be founded upon it; a prounder the form of fictions. These maxims, ceeding which, however it may be instripped of their metaphor, and translated tended by the noble persons who bring it into plam language, appear to me to mean: forward, cannot be debated without a con1st, that the king has no power, by the tinual infringement of that important conconstitution, to do any public act of govern- stitutional maxim, that the personal acment, but through the medium of some tions of the king are not to be made the minister, who is held responsible for the subject of discussion.-Upon the whole act and, 2dly, That the personal actions then it appears that the argument in favour of the king, not being acts of government, of the present motion rests entirely upon are not under the cognizance of law. The the gross fallacy, of considering the demand principle that the king can never act with- of a pledge from ministers as an insulated out advice, applies therefore only to acts fact, and their refusal as the only assignable of government." This interpretation is motive for dismissing them. It appears quite sufficient for the purpose, which that on the contrary, that, independently altomaxim is intended to effect, viz. to secure gather of any such refusal, the dismissal the people from the abuses of bad govern- would have been justifiable; that, before ment, through the restraint which the fear the demand was made, circumstances had of responsibility may put on ministers. If occurred which might naturally and fairly this responsibility attaches on every act of have led to that dismissal. If upon recei government, on every act of the king in his ving that minute of council, by which his executive or legislative capacity, the people ministers agreed to give up the Catholic have all the security, which that maxim bill, the king, instead of requiring that the can impart; and it would be absurd to ex-reservations should be withdrawn, had imtend it to the personal actions of the king mediately and without further explanation, as an individual, to the occurrences of his sent for the seals of office, could any one domestic life, or to the circumstances venture to say that the act would have which may arise in the course of confiden- been unconstitutional? and shall we be told tial communication between him and his that the act which the king might constituministers, previously to their determining tionally have done before the demand of a on any measure, which is afterwards, to pledge, became unconstitutional after that make its appearance to the public as an act demand was refused? that the mere cir of government.-Upon a change of minis- cumstance of the king's having inadverttry, the new ministers are undoubtedly re-ently made a demand, which his ministers sponsible for the dismissal of their prede- could not with propriety accede to, can be cessors as a public act of government; sufficient to annul and bar the exercise of and where the dismissal is connected with one of the most essential prerogatives of any other public measure, on that like. the crown? The noble lord proceeded to wise, retrospectively, they become respon-state, that the avowed object of the motion sible for the negative of their predecessor's was to lead to the re-instatement of the intentions, but not for any private consul- late ministers. However much he might tations, between the king and his former regret that a change should have taken ministers, which did not terminate in any place, it could by no means follow that he public measure. In the present case, the should concur in machinations for forcing demand of a pledge from the late minis-back upon the king any set of men who had ters, cannot be considered in any other lost his majesty's confidence. He argued light than as an occurrence of private con- that no practical good could ever arise from sultation in the cabinet; an occurrence such a proceeding, even if it should sucwhich cannot be a proper subject of parlia-ceed; that a ministry forced upon the king mentary enquiry, since it is only in conse- without his cordial approbation never quence of the king's permission that the could be secure; that the only consequence knowledge of the fact could ever have come would be to multiply changes; and that to parliament. That permission was every change necessarily involves much granted for the sole purpose of, enabling inconvenience to the public service. He some of his late ministers to clear their agreed, that it was of peculiar importance characters of aspersions thrown upon them, the present circumstances of Europe, and it is surely a most improper trespass upon the generosity which led to that permission, that a proceeding, such as the pre

that we should. have a strong and stable administration. Such, undoubtedly, the late administration was; and on this ground,

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among others, he regretted the change:, ever perceive how they could fairly be conbut, though the late administration was sidered as under any such pledge, and he strong, it was by no means to be interred trusted they would take the earliest oppor that, if re-instated, it would be equally tunity of evincing the contrary, by giving strong. The strength of an administration to the Catholics, not merely assurances, depends in a great measure on the opinion, but practical proof, that, however they which the public entertains of its perma- might resist further concessions, they were nence. Before these unfortunate transac determined to execute in a liberal manner, tions, the late administration was univer- the laws already enacted in their favour. sally supposed to be immovably stable. Such a conduct, he was persuaded, would Such an opiniou can never be renewed. not only be more honourable, but of more They formerly possessed the confidence of advantage to the new ministers, and tend the king and the country, united; now, more to promote the stability of their they would possess neither: for, whatever power, than if they should go on to encouseuse the public may entertain of the great rage religious animosity, and to excite apand splendid abilities of the late ministers, prehension in the public mind for the safety the confidence formerly reposed in these of the ecclesiastical establishment. talents, must be greatly shaken by a view raising a cry of no popery!, they might of the extreme indiscretion of their late gain the assistance of a wild and fanatical proceedings. Lord Selkirk further ob-nob, but would excite the disgust and reserved, that, in the present circumstances, probation of every honest and sensible man he could not approve or concur in a sys-in the kingdom.-Loid Selkirk proceeded tematic opposition to an administration, to state, that those who, in the present cirwhose conduct is as yet unknown. He cumstances, do not approve of the avowed thought them entitled to a fair trial, and principles or former conduct of the newly that they should not be condemned till appointed ministers, are by no means their measures should prove them unwor. reduced to the alternative of joining with thy of confidence. It is true, that many the determined partisans of the late minisindividuals of the present administration ters in a systematic opposition; that there are well known as public characters; but, is an intermediate line of conduct more as a government, they are a new combina- honourable, more constitutional, better in tion of men, and as yet untried. He could every respect; that of giving an indepen not deny, that many members of the pre-dent but qualified support to government sent cabinet had expressed opinions on va- so long only as their measures are recoùrious subjects, which he did not concur cileable with the main and essential objects with; and that, from a view of their former of national safety. In times like the preconduct, he could not avoid feeling consi- sent, a systematic opposition, maintained derable anxiety and doubt, as to what by so powerful a party, must tend to emtheir future conduct might be: but he barrass the operations of government, and could not carry this so far as to say that to waste, in the struggle for power, that they should be excluded, as utterly unfit to strength which ought to be directed against be trusted. Notwithstanding the opinions the common enemy. Such proceedings which some of them had delivered, against may be fit for those, whose interests are measures which he highly approved, he involved in the re-establishment of any partrusted they would see the wisdom of the ticular individual at the head of administramaxim which their predecessors had acted tion: but those who are sensible of the im upon in coming into office, that, taking into minent danger of our situation, and whose consideration the unavoidable mischief of primary object is that national safety in repeated changes, they ought to acquiesce which our all is involved, will not be inin many things which they found esta-clined to join the violent partisans of either blished, notwithstanding their having ob- side of the house. If a few persons of jected to them when first enacted. He re- acknowledged character, would unite in an ferred particularly to the measures adopted independent line of conduct, they must last session for the improvement of our ini- gain the confidence of the people; though litary system, the spirit of which he their numbers might at first be small, trusted would be still adhered to. It was every thing they might say would carry also alledged, that the new ministers were weight, and even a small phalanx of such pledged to a system opposite to that of men might be able to repress ebullitions conciliation in Ireland, He could not how-of a factious spirit, whether it should ap

pear on the one side of the house or on and to the dictates of his conscience, after the the other. representation which had been given in by the Lord Boringdon said, he thought the reso-late ministers; and that, after a refusal of lution proposed was much too vague and in- such pledge, his majesty should be desirous definite, and as such he should, before he sat and anxious to look for other servants who down, make a motion for the purpose of get-would not treat him in a similar manner. ting rid of it without coming to any resolu- What did the late ministers say respecting tion on the subject. The latter part of it, he this pledge? Why, that it was not fit to be thought, was a kind of surprise on the house, given; they introduced therefore the reserand he was of opinion that none of it was vation, as a sort of counterpoise, and by so called for by any circumstances which could doing made it in some degree incumbent induce the house to come to any resolution. upon his majesty to call to his councils other It was in his mind a proposition which their men, with whom he could act more in unilordships ought to entertain with much cau- son. It had been more than insinuated that tion, as it related so very nearly and particu- this change had been brought about by secret larly to the personal conduct of the king advisers. It did not, however, appear by the A pledge had been required from his majes-statement made by the noble lord (Grenville) ty's late ministers, respecting the bringing before the recess, that even the smallest inforward a particular question; and it had sinuation could ever be made that the king been assumed that the present ministers had had acted in this matter by the advice of any entered into some such pledge. He believed, person whatever. Much had been said as to however, from the declaration of the noble the effects this would have on the Roman Casecretary of state below him, that no such tholics of Ireland: he hoped, however, that pledge had been given by the present ministers. when that body of men reflected on the maIndeed, there could be no occasion for asking ny disabilities which had been removed by it, for they had never shewn themselves fa- the gracious favour and condescension of his vourable to the Catholic question. He was present majesty, who had, from the comalso adverse to the proposed resolution on mencement of his reign, shewn himself desianother ground. He did not think it would rous to act as far as possible for their relief, be binding on the house. Their lordships they would remember his gracious regard to would recollect, that in the reign of queen their situation, and would not be angry when Elizabeth, that house came to a resolution, they saw their complaints were not set aside while at war with Spain, that the country from any cabal, but that they would accor should make no peace with a prince of the dingly conform themselves in such a manhouse of Bourbon; yet the queen and her ner, as to evince they had a true sense of ministers made peace very soon afterwards, their own case, and were convinced that no and the resolution of the house was so much intention remains in his majesty but to mainwaste paper, and no more. He was ready to ab- tain the oath he had taken at his coronation. solve the late ministers from the imputation Feeling that the motion included a personal which had been charged upon them, of having inculpation of the king for the exercise of an attempted to force on the king any measure undoubted prerogative, he could by no means that militated against his feelings or his con- assent to it, and would therefore conclude by science; but he could not absolve them from moving, that the house do now adjourn. negligence and inattention in the mode in which The question having being read from the they had conducted themselves. He adver- woolsack, ted particularly to the uncertainty and ambi- Lord Kinnaird said, he was both surguity contained in the Irish dispatch, and prised and sorry to hear the sentiments exthought them blameable in endeavouring to pressed in the noble lord's speech, but more obtain his majesty's opinion through the particularly the latter part of it, in which he medium of a draft of a dispatch. He thought said that the Catholics would not be angry if the noble lord at the head of the late admi- when they saw their complaints were not atnistration had openly and candidly commu- tended to from any intrigue or cabal, but nicated directly with his majesty on this im- that they must solely attribute it to the will portant and delicate subject, the late misun- of his majesty. This, he thought, was not derstanding could not have happened. As the happiest way of reconciling that large to the pledge, about which so much had body of men to the opposition made to their been said, he would ask, whether, under all claims, or of conciliating their affections, which the circumstances which had been stated, it had been weakened by repeated disappointwas very extraordinary the king should re-ments. The noble lord had told their lordquire such a security to his peace of mind, ships, that he objected to the resolution, be VOL. IX.

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because it would not be binding; and he had were desirous and capable of pointing out any quoted an instance of a resolution passed by retrenchments. In regard to dispatch of the house about two centuries ago, that they business, he had seen none equal to them, would not make peace with a prince of the for they had brought the public business to a house of Bourbon, though the queen and her degree of forwardness that was unexampled. ministers did very soon after make peace That noble lord had also talked of expeditions with a prince of that house. He did not planned by the late ministers. He was, see how this applied at all to the present however, the last person in the world who case, or why, if a resolution of former times should talk of expeditions to the continent, had been departed from, and thereby render- when he recollected and maturely considered ed of no avail, the house should not, at a the mad expedition to which he had been subsequent period of time, pass any resolu- himself a party; but on the subject of expe tion which a present case might require.ditions, he would tell the noble lord, that The noble lord then addressed himself to the if one of the greatest powers on the continent, earl of Selkirk, and expressed himself truly if Turkey were at this moment at the feet of and sincerely sorry to perceive that noble this country, such a glorious event was earl had become so easy a convert to the owing to the wise, politic, and spirited measupport of his majesty's present ministers; sures of the late administration. He could and that he had exerted those talents, for say the same as to Monte Video; and he which he had so great a respect, in calling greatly feared the next thirteen months would for the confidence of the house, on the ground not be marked by any such splendid and imthat those new ministers were untried. Much portant acquirements, from the combined as he respected the noble carl, and highly as talents and wisdom of the new and untried he valued his talents, he could not, however, ministry. He was extremely sorry to find agree with him in that particular, of their be that attempts had been made to rouse the ing untried. If he looked to the noble duke efforts of bigotry and superstition, and to at the head of the present administration, no re-kindle the flames of religious animosities. one could say he was untried. He had been If there were those now in being who would in repeated administrations, none of which carry those baneful and destructive passions had effected any very great advantages to into the very bosom and seats of learning, and the country during their continuance. If would wish to revive the brilliant exploits of he looked to the noble secretary of state for the dark and barbarous ages, let the effects the home department (lord Hawkesbury), he to be produced by them rest on their own too well knew the effect his former d ploma-heads. This, he believed, was the first time tic conduct had had on all our allies, to draw that secret advisers of the king had brought any very favourable conclusions from it; on the downfall of an administration which and that if it did not assume a more favour-enjoyed the confidence of the country, since able aspect, it could not fail to merit all the the time of that great statesman lord Chatham, wit and humour which his right hon. col-who had declared, that there was a power league, the present foreign secretary, (Mr. behind the throne, greater than the throne Canning,) had then so profusely bestowed itself. Yet before his administration was in on it. If he looked to the noble lord at the a similar manner overturned, that great and head of the war and colonial department, immortal character had laid the foundation of (lord Castlereagh,) he had given such striking drawing into the service of the country a large specimens of the versatility of his genius, body of the subjects of the state, against that he might safely be set down as a foster- whom as many and as violent prejudices exing, careful, and attentive guardian, to whom isted as did now against the Catholics of Irewe might, without risk, commit the care of land. During a long time antecedent to his the virtue and talents of the present adminis-glorious administration, the war-whoop and tration. A noble lord, who had spoken last cry of the country had been loudly and conbut two, speaking of the talents of the late stantly raised against the jacobites in the ministers, had asked, in a kind of trium-north of Scotland. When that illustrious phant tone, what "All the talents" (as the statesman came into office, he found the army late administration were called) had done in a state of decay-and how did he raise it? for the service of the country. He, for his Not by fomenting the prejudices which were own part, thought the question might be readily answered, and that highly to the credit and honour of the late administration. In point of economy, he had ever found them ready to listen to all persons who

then so prevalent, but by calling those very jacobites into the service. He from their ranks recruited the ranks of the army and a braver or more loyal set of men never fought with more energy and constancy the battles

of their country. Such, he had no doubt, record on their journals, or any document would be the case of the Catholics of Ireland, on their table; in fine, without such a basis if confidence were placed in them, and op-as the house would require to sustain a proportunities given them to shew their gratitude ceeding even on an occasion the most unand attachment. For their endeavours to ef-important. As, however, certain particufect this great national purpose, he considered lars had been stated, it was indispensably the late ministers as entitled to the highest praise, and as such the present motion had his hearty support.

necessary that they should be fully detailed and correctly understood, in order that the transaction to which they applied, might Lord Sidmouth said, that the motion of be placed in its true and proper light. Unthe noble baron had relieved him from a der this impression, he relied on the paconsiderable degree of difficulty. He could tience and indulgence of their lordships, not have concurred in giving a negative to whilst he laid before them such information a resolution which expressed regret at the as appeared to him to be material for this late change in his majesty's government, purpose; which however he should not preand which also stated the impropriety of sumie to do, without the sanction of that acceding to any pledge, that might fetter authority, under which the noble baron the conduct of ministers in the discharge of (lord Grenville) had himself addressed them their public duty. To the previous ques-on a former day. [Lord Sidmouth was here tion he should have objected, because he interrupted by the earl of Radnor; who ob was of opinion, that such a proposition as jected to his lordship's proceeding in the that brought forward by the noble marquis detail upon which he appeared to be enter (Stafford) ought not to be entertained un-ing, as being irregular in point of order, and der any circumstances; and it therefore ap-not to be justified even by the permission peared to him, that the proper mode of dis- to which lord S. had alluded. His lordship posing of it, was by a vote of adjournment. said he should have given the same inter-The resolution proposed by the noble ruption on a former occasion, if he had been marquis must be considered as arising out present when similar topics were first introof the discussion which immediately prece-duced by a noble baron, lately at the head ded the Easter recess, and the renewal of of the government.] Lord Sidmouth reit only served to increase the regret which plied, that, whatever might have been the he had felt at the time, and ever since, that objection to the agitation of this question such a discussion should have taken place. in the first instance, which he felt, and had Every allowance was however to be made before expressed; he could not but throw for the situation and feelings of the noble himself on the justice and impartiality of baron (Grenville), by whom the explana-the house, to be allowed the same indultion had been then given. The circum-gence, which others had experienced, whilst stances, which occasioned it, were new, he endeavoured to state such circumstances, and extraordinary: a mutilated extract of as came within his own particular knowa cabinet minute had appeared in a public ledge, and which, he thought, were absopaper, even previous to the change of go-lutely necessary to the right understanding vernment; and no efforts had been spared to place the conduct of the noble baron in the most unfavourable light. These circumstances were sufficient to account for, even if they did not fully justify, the steps which he had taken in his own vindication. But, whatever might be the cause in this particular instance, it must be admitted to be highly desirable and important, that such a proceeding should not be drawn into precedent. Some of the consequences of it already began to be seriously felt. Their lordships were now called upon to vote a resolution, founded on alledged facts, to be collected from a speech, delivered on a former occasion, of which, consistently with the privileges of that house, there could be no existing inemorial ; but without any

of the transaction; professing at the same time, that he was not apprehensive that he should have occasion to disclose any thing which would not be sanctioned by the allowance he had received, consistently with the obligation under which he had acted, as a confidential adviser of the crown. He then proceeded to state, that the noble baron had asserted on a former day, that, upon his entrance into office at the com. mencement of the last year, no declaration, or pledge had been required of him on the subject of the Catholic question; of this he could entertain no doubt: and he further owed it to that noble lord, and to those of his colleagues who concurred with him (lord G.) in opinion on that subject, to declare, that he believed it to have been their earnest wish