was not anything which reported the condition of the state. That is what happened this year, and it could not have been done under the system proposed by my amendment, according to which the estimates would come in first and a real budget would be submitted after the governor surveys the situation.

THE CHAIRMAN-When these estimates are submitted in the first place, as provided at the top of page 5, where you say the governor shall submit to the legislature the regular administration appropriation bills reported by estimates, are those supposed to have been revised by the governor before that submission? MR. SAXE They are submitted by the governor.

THE CHAIRMAN-Well, you realize the point of my question; at present they are submitted by the Comptroller, but the Comptroller has no power to revise them. The result is that the estimates come into the legislature in such condition that the legislature treats them as mere requests and not as responsible estimates of the money to be required.

MR. SAXE-I would give the governor the whole responsibility for those estimates.

THE CHAIRMAN-Yes, sir; in other words, after this week of the session the governor must have exercised some supervision and some revision over those estimates

MR. SAXE-Yes, and it would not need to be a great deal. As I say, 90 per cent of the items are routine items.

THE CHAIRMAN-If it is anything, it is a great deal more than is done now?

MR. SAXE-Absolutely.

THE CHAIRMAN-And your plan includes that proposition? MR. SAXE-Yes.

THE CHAIRMAN-That the governor shall have power not only

MR. SAXE (interrupting)-He should have full responsibility. MR. PELLETREAU-Your proposition contains a provision that the governor and other state officers or heads of departments shall have seats in the legislature?

MR. SAXE-No, they can only answer questions or explain their estimates.

MR. PELLETREAU-Is it your experience that the innovation would be welcomed by the legislative body or not?

MR. SAXE-I don't know how far they are going to welcome the idea of having to do work on finance at all; they have never done it; our finances have been haphazard since the beginning of the state, so far as I know.

MR. PELLETREAU-What are the advantages of the executive branch of the government going before the legislature personally? MR. SAXE-What is the advantage of this committee holding hearings? It is an exactly parallel case. You are considering financial amendments. The legislature is going to consider financial amendments. And I think they would want to know what a man has to say about his estimates. That is the exact proposition.

I thought, when the chairman spoke a few moments ago, he referred to the Comptroller's annual report. When the Comptroller is estimating the budget for the next fiscal year he takes, first of all, the appropriation bills which the legislature has enacted for the fiscal year, then he takes the sinking fund appropriation for the next year, then he realizes that next year they also have to have supply bills to cover deficiencies, and in order to get that estimate on supply bills for the next year he takes exactly the same items they had for the supply bills for the existing year and adds these items together, and that will be the estimated amount of the appropriations for next year. That is the Comptroller's estimate which it has been the habit of governors, when they follow anything at all, to follow in making up their budget or report on the condition of the state. One of the difficulties which we had this year was that the governor took that Comptroller's estimate as to supply bills for last year for this year, and not knowing he had done it already, he added on $9,000,000 more for supply bills, which was a duplication of $9,000,000, and that is where the fun started. But that was based on not understanding what the Comptroller's estimate was. This system is very crude. It is not very wonderful that the governor did not understand it.

MR. AUSTN-Silence should not be understood as acquiescence as to how the alleged error arose.

CHAPTER III

EXPOSITION OF THE PROPOSED CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT

BY DR. FREDERICK A. CLEVELAND

[On June 24, 1915, Dr. Frederick A. Cleveland, of the New York Bureau of Municipal Research, made the following exposition of the proposed constitutional amendment (above, Chapter I) before the Constitutional Convention Committee on Finances, Revenues and Expenditures.]

THE CHAIRMAN (HON. HENRY L. STIMSON) -I might say to the members of the committee that Dr. Cleveland was the chairman of the Taft Efficiency and Economy Commission, which helped Mr. Taft prepare his budget. He is also now the director of the Bureau of Municipal Research, which has been helping the Commission on Efficiency and Economy in its analysis of the functions of the state, so that he is fully qualified by his experience to give us information on the subject.

Doctor, will you go ahead? I think, perhaps, I can help you a little bit. The committee has heard, as you know, at great length, from lawyers generally, on the different aspects of budgetmaking in general. We have heard about it in Great Britain, and in the different cities of the state, and have heard about it in the legislature in the state government here, so that we have heard the general features of the present system and the different systems elsewhere pretty thoroughly. It think it would be a great help, though, if you would, in making your statement, explain the purpose of the details of the bills which have been introduced by Mr. Saxe. I think that it is the things which you think are necessary to a scientific budget that I, for one, would be most glad to hear about. If any of the committee feel that I am misstating their views I hope they will interrupt me, but I think the thing we would most like to hear about would be the reasons for and against the different details which you have put into

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this bill. We know in general about pros and cons of executive and legislative budgets pretty well, but I think we would like to have an analysis or statement of the reasons for and against the different particular provisions of the bill.

DR. CLEVELAND-Mr. Chairman, there are two kinds of details to which attention has been given in the preparation of the bill in question; one is the detail of budget procedure, the other is the detail of budget content.

To get before you, by way of recapitulation, the details as to procedure, the prescribed steps are as follows:

First, the preparation of administration estimates under the direction and control of the governor before the first of January each year. In the case of a new governor, leaving out of account the month after election and before taking office, he would have a week to secure the department estimates before he would be required to submit them to the legislature and then he would have sixty days to correct and amend them.

Second, the preparation and submission of the administration appropriation bills by the governor, or by those who are to represent him, supported by the estimates.

Third, the organization of the Assembly as a committee of the whole House for the consideration of the financial matters which are contained in these bills or in other bills that are to be enacted as appropriations.

Fourth, the explanation of items in administration appropriation bills and estimates and answering of questions of members about requests which are made by the governor and his subordinates.

Fifth, the introduction after discussion or during discussion of any amendments; and in this relation it is suggested that no amendment by a member would be in order on the administration appropriation bills except to reduce; that is, no members would be permitted to move a change in an item except to reduce. But there is provision made whereby members may introduce separate bills on legislative, judicial or other matters, not covered by the administration bills, but members' bills must be separately introduced so that they can be separately vetoed by the governor.

Sixth, the vote on the appropriation bills in committee of the whole, item by item, so as to obtain the sense of the legislature and develop any opposition which may be present. This is one of the most fundamental and far-reaching of the features which we have introduced, as it would give an opportunity for real public discussion and for developing real issues on the floor of the House.

Seventh, the submission by the governor of a budget or a financial plan covering the next fiscal year period, which will carry with it his own and other amended requests for appropriation, and his proposal for financing the estimated requirements. These latter would be either in the form of revenue bills or borrowing bills, and they would be submitted as a part of the budget not later than sixty days after the beginning of the session.

Eighth, discussion and voting on the revenue bills and the amended appropriation bills in the committee of the whole House on ways and means until the final drafts of bills had been agreed to by a working majority.

Ninth, reporting out and,

Tenth, the final passage of the revenue bills and the appropriation bills. Following that opportunity would be given to the governor to sign the administration bills and to veto those which are not administration bills, item by item, if the present veto clause remains.

This, in general, is our proposed budget procedure provided for in the Saxe bill No. 470; these requirements, so far as they relate to the executive, are also made a part of No. 510 and No. 555.

Taking up the suggestions in these bills having to do with budget content, which, I understand, is the other side of the picture that you would like to have presented, it is thought desirable (instead of simply stating that the governor shall submit a budget, or stating that the governor shall deliver an address on the condition of the state) to prescribe exactly what is the nature of the document called a "budget," which the governor is required to place before the legislature. In other words, looking at this from the viewpoint of the legislature (the constitution having made the governor responsible for introducing his financial measures, because he is the one who is to be held responsible for carrying on the work to be financed), it is thought desirable to state in general terms specifically what information shall be carried as a part of and in support of the budget. As set forth