definite object constantly before him, knowing been most thorough, and all classes are convinced that good conduct will certainly work an amelio- of their reliability. With us crime is increasing. ration of his condition, he has a powerful motive In Ireland it is decreasing. With us, as we have for good conduct constantly operating on him. shown, our prisons do not deter men from the On the other hand, he knows that every act will commission of crime. In Ireland, they are really demonstrate that those changes in his character, a terror to evil doers and they furnish a real prowhich the discipline was intended to produce, tection to life and property. With us, our prishave not been effected, and that it will be neces-ons are not reformatory, at least to any very sary to put him backward until the change is great extent. In Ireland, they are truly reforma. completely accomplished. His daily improvement tory. It is rare to find a man who has once gone or deterioration is admirably measured by a sys- through their discipline, who ever returns to tem of marks. If these show that the prisoner them again, they are better men when they leave is advancing, he is advanced; if he is going back- them than they were when they entered them. ward, he is put backward. He cannot advance Mr. Chairman, I suppose there can be no differuntil he has actually and permanently acquired ence of opinion amongst us, with respect to our all the discipline which the stage through which duty to provide the best guarantees in our power he is passing is calculated to confer upon him. for the security of life and property in this State, At every advance his condition is improved, his and the reformation of our criminal classes. Can comforts are increased, he has a larger percent- any one doubt that a comparison between our sysage of his earnings credited to him, and he has a tem and that of Sir Walter Crofton shows the very greater area of personal privileges allowed to great and overwhelming superiority of the latter? him. He is also subjected to greater temptations, If we are agreed upon these points, then we can. and he cannot rise until he has acquired the not adopt the latter system without a change in power of resisting them. The third is called the our constitutional provisions. We must exclude intermediate stage because it is intermediate be-all chance of those rapid changes which are now tween imprisonment and freedom. They are necessarily incident to every change in politics, under very little restraint, although they are care- and even to every change in the persons of the fully watched in this stage; they are not taken inspectors. The subordinate officers must be reout in gangs, under keepers, but allowed to work tained so long as they perform their du on farms, in mechanical labor, on railroads or ties well, since every year will add to their canals, as may be desired, and are credited with ability. It will be seen at a glance that a large percentage of their earnings. The education commenced in the earlier stages is continued through this; lectures on practical subjects by able men are given to them daily. Examinations are held weekly among themselves, which bring out the mental acquisitions of each prisoner, and a small part of their earnings is handed over to them, which they can spend as they please, but which they generally save carefully to be added to the savings which are given to them when the term of their imprisonment is wholly accomplished. It must not be forgotten that if the prisoner abuses his increased liberties, he may at any time be set back, one or two classes or a whole stage, from whence he must work his way back by the same slow and painfut process as he did before. When the prisoner seems to have acquired the knowledge and the habits of self-control which fit him to mingle usefully with society, Mr. LAPHAM-I would ask whether the sys. he enters the fourth stage, in which he receives tem of punishment is uniform under the Irish a conditional pardon and a ticket-of-leave. He system, without any reference to the grade of is allowed to select his own place of residence the offense?

unity of plan and purpose is indispensable to the working of the scheme, and I think I have clearly shown that no board can possibly be held to a strict responsibility, or can direct any complicated system which requires unity of purpose for its successful prosecution. We have, therefore, to choose between a truly reformatory system of prison discipline and the plan of the majority, or one which will perpetuate the present admitted evils and the plan of the minority.

Mr. BELL I would like to ask the gentleman from Columbia [Mr. Gould] what has been the pecuniary success of the Irish system?

I was

Mr. GOULD-I am not able to state. not able to obtain the figures in time so as to make a statement which could be verified by the figures, but I think it has been a pecuniary suc cess under Sir Walter Crofton.

and his own occupation; but he is still under Mr. GOULD-The system is this: If a man the inspection of the police, and if at any time he commits an offense, a punishment is annexed to is found to abuse his privliges, if he relapses into that. Suppose it is for six months. Now, a perhis old ways, if he is found without visible son who has only six months to serve, has not so means of support, or associating with suspicious many marks to gain. The number of marks is characters, his ticket-of-leave is withdrawn and graduated to the length of punishment. For inhe is returned either to the second or third stages stance, a man who has been guilty of a serious to work his way out as before. The practical re- crime, which would justify a large number of sults of the system have been most extraordi-years of punishment, would be required to get a nary. Experience has set its seal upon its value. greater number of marks, so that the system With us it is very difficult to procure employment actually graduates itself according to the severity for such convicts as have given the best evidence of the offense. But the system is that no man of a desire to reform. In Ireland there is no shall go out of one department into another until class who can so easily obtain employment. The the moral and intellectual objects to be desired reason for this is, that with us the reformation in that branch are entirely gained. has not been tested. In Ireland the tests have Mr. LAPHAM-Suppose it was a case of sen

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tence for imprisonment for life-what is the value of the system in that case?

Mr. GOULD-The value of the system in that case is that there is a special adaptation to the circumstances of the individual, and that is all there is about it in that case. Our system is uniform. Very bad and tolerably decent men are not placed upon the same system exactly. There is a flexibility, an adaptation of the system to the individuales of the case. Every man, whatever his character, whatever his disposition, is not subject to precisely the same discipline, but there is an individualization.

M. HAND-I would ask if the punishment is modified according to the good behavior in cases of imprisonment for life, or only in cases for a series of years?

Mr. GOULD-No, sir, in that case it is not so. Mr. HAND-There is no encouragement, then? Mr. GOULD-The only case where it is is where the prisoner is committed for life, and that volves the adoption of a discipline according to the particular circumstances of the individual. Mr. KINNEY-I would like to inquire if the decrease of the percentage of crime in Ireland is not greater than the decrease of population. I suppose the gentleman is aware that the populaton there is decreasing largely.

Mr. GOULD-It is slightly so. I only claim that there is this very marked difference between Ireland and other countries in regard to prison discipline. There is one peculiarity which gentlemen should not overlook-and that is that the en who come out of prison are eagerly sought for as farm servants, because the discipline which they had undergone admirably fits them for an honest and faithful discharge of the duty. I will further remark that Sir Walter Crofton, who was the originator of this system, was so successful in Ireland that he has now been transferred by the British Government to England, for the purpose of introducing the system throughout the length and breadth of that kingdom. Now, sir, I believe I have really finished all that I desire to say. We cannot have this system administered by a board. We may, it is true, nominally have a board. There is nominally a board which has charge of the penitentiary at Albany, but the

fact is that

Mr. C. C. DWIGHT-I would like to ask the gentleman who it is that administers the system of prison discipline? Whether it is the central power that appoints the wardens, or whether it is the wardens?

does precisely what he likes without any interference whatever. I believe that there is also a board of prisons in Ireland; but they never interfered with Sir Walter Crofton. He has done precisely as he pleased.

Mr. C. C. DWIGHT-I would like to ask whether the board of prisons in Ireland did not appoint Sir Walter Crofton to his position to administer the system of discipline of which he was the originator?

Mr. GOULD-My impression is that he was himself a member of that board. As he developed a special fitness and capacity for the work, the other members just stood aside and allowed him to carry out his views entirely in his own way, so that the matter was practically managed by a single man. I believe I have presented all the views I desire. If we really do desire to make a permanent advance, if we desire to do a genuine, philanthropic work, if we desire to have our prisoners converted into good men, I see no way whatever of accomplishing it unless we change entirely the system which has been hitherto made use of, and unless we carry out the principles of responsibility, unless we have a man to do the work who is specially adapted by the peculiar character of his mind and the peculiar education which he has enjoyed. Sir, gentlemen ask if I know of any man who could be trusted with this matter. I know of a man, I have him in my eye, and he does not belong to the same political party that I do either, whom I should be perfectly willing to intrust with the control of this system, because I should be sure that he would administer it with perfect humanity, and I have no doubt he would do it with perfect success.

Mr. BELL-I would ask the gentleman another question. Does the plan proposed by the majority of the committee propose to introduce the Irish system or any system?

Mr. GOULD-It does intend to lay the foundation for it. The Irish system will be introduced by the Legislature if it is introduced at all. All we can do in the Constitution is to lay the foundation for the introduction of a system analogous to the Irish system.

Mr. BELL-It looks to that end.

Mr. AXTELL-I move that the committee do

now rise, report progress, and ask leave to sit again. SEVERAL DELEGATES-No, no, no.

The question was put on the motion of Mr. Axtell, and, on a division, it was declared lost by a vote of 12 ayes-the noes not counted.

Mr. GOULD-If the gentleman is disposed to The CHAIRMAN announced the pending quesbe nice upon this point, I will say it is the tion to be on the substitute offered by Mr. C. C. under-keeper who administers the discipline. Dwight, for the first section of the majority re

port.

3 Mr. C. C. DWIGHT-I would ask if Amos Pisbury is not responsible for the adminis- Mr. C. C. DWIGHT-If there is no other tion of the discipline in the Albany peniten- member of the Committee who desires to speak tiary? upon the pending question, I desire to say a few words in reply to the gentleman from Columbia [Mr. Gould].

Mr. GOULD-That is another thing altogether. The gentleman did not ask me who was responsible; he asked me who it was that administered Mr. FOLGER-If the gentleman will allow the discipline, and I say it is the under-keeper. me, I will renew the motion that the committee As I was remarking, the Albany penitentiary is do now rise, report progress, and ask leave to sit nominally governed by a board, but the fact is again.

that Mr. Pillsbury is the sole dictator.

The The question was put on the motion of Mr.

board never interferes in a single instance. He Folger, and it was declared carried.

Whereupon the committee rose and the PRESIDENT resumed the chair in Convention.

Mr. COMSTOCK-I respectfully dissent from that view. I think we have a right to perfect the substitute before we vote upon it.

The CHAIRMAN-The Chair rules that it is the right of the committee to perfect the propo

Mr. S. TOWNSEND, from the Committee of the Whole, reported that the committee had had under consideration the report of the Committee on State Prisons, and the Prevention and Punish-sition before it is voted upon; and it therefore ment of Crime, had made some progress therein, but, not having gone through therewith, had instructed their chairman to report that fact to the Convention, and ask leave to sit again.

The question was put on granting leave, and it was declared carried.

Mr. BARTO-I move that we adjourn until Monday evening, at 7 o'clock.

SEVERAL DELEGATES-No, no, no.

The PRESIDENT-The Chair thinks that the motion

entertains the amendment offered by the gentleman from Steuben [Mr. Rumsey].

Mr. ALVORD-Does the Chair understand my position? My position is, that there is an attempt now, by the amendment of the gentleman from Steuben, to amend the substitute offered by the gentleman from Cayuga [Mr. C. C. Dwight] before that has been accepted by the commit

Mr. C. C. DWIGHT-Do I understand that an amendment has been offered to my amend

Mr. HITCHCOCK-I move that we now ad- ment? journ.

Mr. RUMSEY-I withdraw my amendment, if The question was put on the motion of Mr. the gentleman wishes to speak upon the substiHitchcock, and it was declared lost. tute he has offered.

Mr. FOLGER-I move that we take the usual

recess, until 7 o'clock this evening.

. Mr. C. C. DWIGHT-I desire to ask the indulgence of the committee for a few minutes, while

The question was put on the motion of Mr. I make some reply to the remarks of the gentle. Folger, and it was declared carried.

So the Convention took a recess.

EVENING SESSION.

The Convention re-assembled at seven o'clock

P. M.

Mr. AXTELL—I ask for the calling of the roll.

Mr. SEAVER-I move that the Convention do now adjourn.

The question was put on the motion to adjourn, and, on a division, it was declared lost, by a vote of five ayes; noes not counted.

man from Columbia [Mr. Gould], the chairman of the standing committee. I wish to preface this reply by saying that in all that gentleman has said in regard to the weakness, the short-cominga aud the faults of the present system of management of our State prisons, I entirely concur with ~ him. I go as far as he goes on that question. And in all that he has said in regard to the necessity for a radical reform in the system of management at present existing in this State, I go as far as he goes. I will say further that in all that the gentleman has said here this morning in eulogy of the Irish system of prison discipline, I go as far as he goes. I think that system is a better one even than the gentleman has represented it here. In many respects, in many of its details, 1 understand that it operates more favorably than the gentleman has represented. But I do not propose to-night to discuss that system. I only desire to say that all that the gentleman has said in favor of the Irish system, makes for the plan of prison organization which I have had the hono to submit. The Irish system, although it may Mr. AXTELL-I move that the Committee not be in all its details entirely conformable to rise, report progress, and ask leave to sit our institutions and our systems of government again.

The Convention then resolved itself into Committee of the Whole, on the report of the Committee on State Prisons, their care and management, Mr. S. TOWNSEND, of Queens, in the chair.

The CHAIRMAN announced the pending question to be upon the motion of Mr. C. C. Dwight to substitute the first two sections of the minor ity report for the first section of the majority report.

is yet, I believe, by far the most advanced, the The question was put on the motion of Mr. Ax-most philanthropic, the most enlightened system tell, and it was declared lost.

Mr. RUMSEY—I move to amend the section by striking out "five" as the number of the commissioners, and inserting in lieu of it "three;" so that there may be three commissioners; the tenor of their office being nine years, electing one every three years.

Mr. ALVORD-I rise to a point of order; that we cannot amend the substitute offered by the gentleman from Cayuga [Mr. C. C. Dwight] because it is not before us except in the shape of an amendment. It has not been passed upon by the committee. We must first take the question on substituting it for the original proposition of the majority of the committee, which is the matter now under discussion, and then we shall have a right to amend it; but we have no right to amend it before we adopt it.

which is to-day in practical operation anywhere on the globe. I claim for the plan of organiza tion submitted by me, that it is the only plan of organization which can be expected to secure the advantages of the Irish system, or any thing of equal value. I call the attention of this Conven tion to the fact that it is a dangerous thing to put at the head of this great system of prison dis cipline and management, a single man, who may ride a hobby other than the Irish system through all these institutions. It is a dangerous thing to put in this place of power and responsibility on man, who may prefer the Irish system even to better one. The Irish system is not necessarily the ultimate attainment of human wisdom upo this question. There may be improvements upor even that system; and I should hesitate long t put in the control of the prisons of this State,

know that behind the captain who commands the ship stands the company of owners, or the directors of the company, to direct all her voyages and her ventures. And we know that behind the superintendent who runs the factory, stands the board of directors of the company who own the factory. I ask, who ever heard of a single man put over the captain of a ship, a single man put over the superintendent of a factory, or a single man put over the general of an army? That, as I attempted to show in the outset of the discussion, is the weakness of the gentleman's plan, and there is no parallel for it. If these prisons constituted, in any sense, a unity, as an army is composed of its parts as one whole, there would be some force in it: but there is no such connec tion. They are totally distinct and separate, and at the head of each of them both of our plans would place a warden, who should be made the one sole responsible head of that institution. There is a good deal of force in the comparison of a prison to a factory, for a prison is a factory. It is more than that-it is a collection of factories. The prison at Auburn consists of six or eight large manufacturing establishments, each of them employing from fifty to a hundred and fifty stalwart mechanics in various branches of mechanical industry, and they constitute a collection of manufacturing establishments. At the head of each is the keeper, who controls the discipline of the shop; in each is a foreman who directs the mechanical operations of the men; and over the whole of these factories, thus associated together, we place the warden, who per sonally superintends and governs the whole. But the prison is not merely a collection of factories: it is a community of a thousand to sixteen hundred human beings, with interests and needs physical, mental and moral, of great and pressing importance. I say that behind and over the warden, who governs that community, who is absolute in his sphere as the head of that institution, I would have a body of men who possess wisdom, intelligence, experience and philanthropy enough to know whether he discharges his duties as he ought to do. The gentleman says he would have an undivided responsibility; that he would make the superintendent responsible. I ask the gentleman, responsible to whom?

man who might make a hobby of the Irish sys'n, and ride it through all these institutions, to the disparagement and neglect of a system which might be a vast improvement upon it. But all that the gentleman has said on that point, his whole argument, has made for the plan of organization which I have submitted. What I want, as I said in my opening upon that question, is a body of men of so much wisdom, so much experience, so much ability, that they can devise and institute the best system, whatever it is; of discrimination sufficient to select from all the systems which are before the world the best system, or to select the best features of the best systems, and to make a new one, if possible, which shall be better than any now existing. One man cannot override the counsels of such a body with a hobby. I go quite as far as the gentleman goes in advocacy of a single individual responsibility in the management of these prisons. But where will you have that responsibility? I insist that the only place to have it is in the warden, at the head of each of these institutions. How is it to-day? Any man who lives near a State prison, or has had any experience or opportunity of observing them-I ask him where the responsibility is now placed. With the very imperfect authority lodged at present in the hands of the warden, the management of each prison is yet in his hands, and rightly so. To-day the inspectors appoint every officer of the prison, from the warden down to the guard that tends the gate; and the warden has no power to remove these officers, even for the grossest misconduct; and yet we now hold the warden responsible for the management of the prison. So it must always be, either under the system proposed by myself, or under that reported by the gentleman from Columbia [Mr. Gould]. We both give the warden the appointment of his subordinate officers, and the removal of any and every one of them at his pleasure. Can there be any question, then, that it will be the warden of the prison that will be held responsible for its management? Can there be any question that the warden ought to be held responsible for its management? I observed that the argument of the gentleman for a single individual responsibility had its effect upon the committee. I desire that it should. I desire it should have the utmost effect; for that argument Mr. GOULD-The Governor and the Legislature. is in favor of the system I propose. As I said Mr. C. C. DWIGHT-The Governor and the in the opening of this discussion, there is no such Legislature have no knowledge on the subject of thing as a system of prisons in the State of New the management of the prisons. The matter of York. Each of these prisons is as separate, in- prison management is a science, distinct from the dividual, distinct and independent of all the rest duties of the Governor and the Legislature, and is one of the colleges of the State is distinct no man knows this better than the gentleman every other similar institution in the State; himself. The Governor and the Legislature have I would as soon think of putting one man as no experience in the management of prisons. All Predent over all the colleges of the State as to that the Governor and the Legislature can do is Put the man in control of all the prisons of the what the people can do-look at the balanceState. The gentleman asks, who ever heard of sheet and see whether there is a balance on the an army, or a factory, or a ship, put in charge of side of profit or of loss; and that is the least of a board? I accept the gentleman's comparison. all the considerations which relate to this great We never did hear of an army put in charge of a subject of prison discipline and management. board; but we do know that behind the general say that there should be an undivided, sole rewho commands the army stands the President of sponsibility at the head of each of these prisons; the United States, the commander-in-chief, with and then I would create this body of men of inhis board of counselors, his cabinet, to control telligence and experience, who should be comand direct the operations of the general. We do petent to exact a just responsibility from that

I

ter; if we would have the wisest and best lection of officers to administer that system wh established; and if we would have those office constantly held to a strict responsibilty for t most thorough and efficient administration that system, and the most faithful dischar of their duties under it, then, sir, we mu have in the composition of our central author something more of wisdom, of judgment and experience than can be looked for in any sing man.

head. I would make them a body who could human mind-problems which will never reach judge whether that head discharged his duty. I full solution so long as crime continues and effo would make them a body to whom this head continue for the restraint of crime and the ref should be responsible. The gentleman says he mation of the criminal. The solution of th agrees with me in placing the Albany peniten- great problems will be committed to the cent tiary at the head of all the institutions of this supervisory authority which we now propose character in the country, and as a great example organize. To it must be committed the duty of efficient, wise and successful management. I devising the system of management and discipl ask him, to what is this efficiency of the manage- to be enforced in our prisons, of advising s ment of the Albany penitentiary due? It is due modifications in that system as may, from time to the efficiency, the wisdom, the experience, the time, be shown to be necessary; of supervis character of Amos Pillsbury, who stands at its the enforcement of that system, and of holding head. Is Amos Pillsbury directed by any one a strict responsibility all the officers who have to man who corresponds to the superintendent of with its administration. I ask whether there is prisons proposed by the gentleman? No, sir; parallel or example for intrusting such duti behind Amos Pillsbury stands a large board of powers and responsibilities to a single individua officials of Albany county, who are capable of No, Mr. Chairman, in conclusion, I insist t judging, from their experience and observation if we would have the best system of pris of this prison, whether Amos Pillsbury main-discipline and management devised and esta tains the high character he long ago ac- lished, whether it be the Irish system or a b quired as a prison officer. And if he should fail, from old age or from any other cause, and become incapable of longer discharging the duties of that position, that board is capable of discovering the fact and of removing him, and of selecting another man to be put in his place. The gentleman from Columbia [Mr. Gould], in answer to a question put to him by the gentieman from Jefferson [Mr. Bell], informed the committee that it was the intention of the plan proposed by him to lay the foundation for the introduction of the Irish system of prison discipline and manage- Mr. AXTELL-I move that the Conventi ment. I should like to hear the gentleman ex-rise, report progress, and ask leave to sit agai plain how the system of organization proposed by and on that motion I ask for a count. him was either caiculated or likely to introduce The question being put on the motion of A the Irish system of management. I think that I Axtell, was declared, by the Chair, to be eviden have shown that it is wise to intrust this matter, lost. for the purpose of obtaining the Irish system, or to obtain a better system if a better system cau be found, to a body of men who shall have more of wisdom and more of experience than can be found in any one man in the world. But the gentleman also said, in answer to the same question, that the introduction of the Irish system must be the result of legislation. If it is to be the result of legislation, will one man, placed over these institutions, be more likely to obtain such beneficent legislation than a body of able, distinguished, enlightened and experienced men? Will any one man that can be named by the gentleman be likely to have that weight with the Legislature to influence them to introduce such a system, which the body of councillors I propose would have? But the gentleman cites the action of this Convention in establishing a single superintendent of the canals as a precedent for our action here. Sir, if the prisons of this State were merely parts of a whole, as the Erie canal, and each of its lateral branches, are parts of one system of navigation, or if all the results of the management of prisons were shown on the balance-sheet of pecuniary profit and loss to the people of the State, then I would Mr. S. TOWNSEND, from the Committee of grant that there might be force in the precedent Whole, reported that the committee had had cited by the gentleman. But, sir, I think I have der consideration the report of the Committee shown that such is not the case. The results in State Prisons, their care and management, s the case of our prisons cannot be exhibited by had made some progress therein; but findi figures. Their management involves some of the on division, that no quorum was present, most important and the most difficult of the moral instructed their chairman to report that fact problems which are anywhere presented to the the Convention.

I

Mr. AXTELL-I ask for a count.

The CHAIRMAN-The question is decided Mr. AXTELL-I raise the point of order: appeal from the decision of the Chair.

The CHAIRMAN-The Chair decided that insufficient number rose, four or five only risi and that it was evidently not carried. The g tleman asks for a count, and appeals from decision of the Chair. The question is-shall decision of the Chair stand as the judgment the committee?

The question being put upon sustaining decision of the Chair, it was declared carried, a vote of 26 to 4.

Mr. AXTELL-There is no quorum voting. The CHAIRMAN-Does the gentleman ra that question?

Mr. AXTELL-I do.

The CHAIRMAN-Has he any proposition make?

Mr. AXTELL-There is no quorum votin The committee must rise.

Whereupon the committee rose, and the PRE DENT resumed the chair in Convention.