You

Not only that, but on the coast line to the peninsula of Istria-that is, the western part of it-there are quite a few towns. There are, for instance, Capo d'Istria, Novi Grad, Porec, and Revin. These cities have a population running from 10,000 to 50,000. These cities are, so to speak, little nests situated on the western shores of this peninsula, and that is where the Italian population is concentrated. go 5 kilometers or 4 miles from the shore away from these little cities and towns and you will find nothing but Croats; that is, a branch of the Jugo-Slavs. So if we take the population of these cities and compare it with the census, and also the population west of the river Isonzo, we will find that the Province of Gradisca, and also Istra, all the way from the River Isonzo east, and all the way from Trieste down, that narrow strip is purely Jugo-Slav, and, if that territory was given to tne Jugo-Slavs, you would not find as many Italians as there would be Slovenes, Croats, and Serbs in the city of Trieste, providing that Italy gets Trieste, which she claims is hers now.

Now, gentlemen, it is nothing but fair that I emphasize this point that one branch of the Jugo-Slavs, the Slovenes, nave probably only one and a half million. It is a small nation that came to these parts of the country, where they live now. Six or seven hundred years ago they came here and as soon as they settled grabbed for the plow. Foreign rule got there and had them enslaved for nearly a thousand years. They were slaves right. This little nation was for nearly a thousand years without any national schools, without any books, without national courts. If they called a poor farmer, he would come to court and could not speak anything but his own language, and there he was questioned in the German language. But in spite of all this oppression and enslavement our little nation preserved its nationality and preserved it well.

In the year 1800, during the time of the Napoleonic war, I do not believe there were any Slovenic books. But to-day we can say that there are only 7 per cent of the Slovenes that can not read or write.

Now, gentlemen, this is a pretty good percentage which shows that this little nation is muscular, has the will, and can not be stricken dead or erased off the face of the earth.

Senator BRANDEGEE. When you speak about their being slaves, you do not mean that they were really slaves?

Mr. SKUBIC. Up to 1848 there was the feudal period. At that time they were nothing but common slaves, working for the landlords, and so forth. They were the feudal tenants, but in fact, as a nation, they were enslaved.

Senator BRANDEGEE. During this feudal period did they get any pay for their work?

is all.

Mr. SKUBIC. They got very little, barely their existence. That But in 1848-that is the time when Austria had need of the help of the Slovenes and Jugo-Slavs, when she was threatened with a great upheaval, and the fight which struck her just now during this war, then she gave a few their constitutional rights, which the old Emperor Joseph ignored.

Senator BRANDEGEE. What differentiates a Slovene from a Slovak?

Mr. SKUBIC. A Slovene, let me explain-probably it would interest you to have me explain the word "Jugo-Slav."

Senator BRANDEGEE. That means southern Slav?

Mr. SKUBIC. That means southern Slav. Now the southern Slavs live on the Balkans. The Balkan Slavs are Slovenes. The northwestern branch take the northwestern part of the Balkans, then come the Croatians-they are the Slovenes' neighbors-then come the Serbs, and of course then there are the Bulgars, who are Jugo-Slavs. Senator BRANDEGEE. Can they understand each other-speak the same general language?

Mr. SKUBIC. They can. There is only a little difference between the dialect of the Croats and the Bulgars. Practically we can understand one another well, and can talk and read their books, one thing and another.

Senator MOSES. Anybody knowing the Serbian tongue can talk to you? Mr. SKUBIC. Yes.

Senator BRANDEGEE. Is the print the same as English letters?

Mr. SKUBIC. The Slavs and the Croats use the Latin letter; the Serbs have had the Cyrilic, but most of the Serbs also use the Latin letter.

The CHAIRMAN. You do not consider the Bulgars pure Slavs, do you?

Mr. SKUBIC. We really do not figure on them having anything to do with the case. Our program is to make a central republic on the order of the United States, so that Slovenia will have their autonomy and the Croats will have theirs, the Slavs theirs, and the Montenegrins theirs.

Senator BRANDEGEE. Do the Bulgars have Slavic blood in them? Mr. SKUBIC. They have. It has even been stated that the Greeks centuries ago were Slavs.

Now the question is, as I started out to say, whether Jugo-Slavia will get from a commercial standpoint Fiume and the country northwest of Fiume, which is apparently Jugo-Slav, and I think that the argument and the reasons are in favor of Jugo-Slavia's case. There

is no other way of getting out of it, to settle the question as it ought to be settled, namely, that a port that serves one country ought to belong to that country, and if the Jugo-Slavs are shoved off the coast, that means commercial death for them. But they want to live. They want to have commercial relations with other people, and the sea is the only feasible and the cheapest way of getting in touch with other countries. Now, we do not want anybody to come and lock up the Adriatic. We do not want to lock it up ourselves. If we should get the city of Fiume or Trieste, we do not care to lock them up to other nations, because we think that justice demands that those who have no access to the sea should have a way to come down to the sea.

We are only asking for justice, gentlemen, and I think that justice ought to be given us. I thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there anyone else who desires to be heard. You have 15 minutes more if you want.

STATEMENT OF MR. FRANK KERZE.

The CHAIRMAN. Where do you live?

Mr. KERZE. Chicago, Ill.

The CHAIRMAN. You are an American citizen?

Mr. KERZE. Yes, sir; for the last 10 years.

Senator BRANDEGEE. What nationality were you before?
Mr. KERZE. A Slovenian.

Senator KNOX. What is your occupation, please?

Mr. KERZE. I am editor and publisher of the Slovenian Review. Gentlemen of the committee, I will not be able to explain the whole position, but I would like to make clear just a few questions. We do not want to interfere with the affairs of this great Republic. The most of the Jugo-Slavs who came to this country will stay in this country, because there is but one America. But our duty was, when that great historical opportunity came that the JugoSlavs should be heard for the first time, to state our case. Before this great war was started we knew very well about Central America, we knew about the 3,000 of the Eskimos, but the great majority of the world's intelligence did not know anything about the Jugo-Slavs. Why? Because it was in the interest of Austria-Hungary and Germany that the Jugo-Slavs be shown as barbarians to the rest of the world, so that Germany and Austria one day could take their armies and Germanize on their way to the east.

Gentlemen, Jugo-Slavia, or at least some parts of it, has been in history never free. Now is a great historical moment, and we are here living in this country, working for this country, but still we feel that they are our brothers. We feel that the great historical moment is here when we come to speak before the public for the independence, for the liberty of the Jugo-Slav nation.

Gentlemen, we have here the statistics that clearly show that the majority of the land claimed by Italy belongs to Jugo-Slavia; but, gentlemen, I want to be just. It is impossible that we should require from everybody that they would study the local conditions of such a small strip of land, where we are used to count by millions and hundreds of millions; but I would suggest that the small nation feels an injustice just as much as the great one, and justice is not the privilege of the great nation. Injustice does not hurt only a big nation, but it hurts everybody, and we are here to ask for our brothers in the old country nothing but what is just. There are differences about the Istrians and about the Gorizians. Those countries would be very well satisfied to be under a commission so long as the parties who live there, the Jugo-Slavs and Italians, would be satisfied; but that is a question for the people of the nationalities who live there, not for the diplomats at Paris. No matter how they decide it I do not think that anybody would be satisfied. Both parties would be satisfied only one way, so that the agreement would be made by both parties, every party given some of this and some of that, and I hope that an understanding could be reached anyhow.

Gentlemen, we thank you very much for the first great opportunity on the part of the Jugo-Slavs, especially the Slovenes and Croats, to appear before such an honorable body as this committee of the United States Senate.

Senator KNOX. This treaty created a Jugo-Slav State?

135546-1970

Mr. KERZE. Yes.

Senator KNOX. I think we should get it more clearly in our minds in what respect that State, as created by the treaty, is unsatisfactory. Mr. KERZE. Not only by the Adriatic question but by other questions.

Senator KNOx. That is what I want to get at.

Mr. KERZE. By the boundary on the north. That is a question that is at issue.

Senator KNOX. That is the Fiume question?

Mr. KERZE. Not only the Fiume question, but about 600,000 Slovenes, there. I think Fiume was taken purposely only to get peoples' thoughts away from more important questions.

Senator KNOX. I think it is very essential to our proper understanding of your cause, if it is not already in one of these documents that you have already prepared, that you should submit a document showing in just what respect the Jugo-Slav State created by the treaty is unsatisfactory to the Jugo-Slavs, and have a definite, specific issue before us.

Mr. KERZE. We have prepared for this honorable body a statistical map which gives you this idea as clearly as possible. This map was made according to the Austrians' statistics which we have only from 1910.

Senator SWANSON. You oppose, as I understand, giving to Italy Dalmatia, and other ports on the Adriatic, according to the secret treaty of London?

Mr. KERZE. Yes, sir.

Senator SWANSON. Do you object to Fiume being internationalized? Mr. KERZE. Gentlemen, what would be a hinterland without a seaport?

Senator SWANSON. If it is internationalized you could make another seaport.

Mr. KERZE. A seaport is not built in one or two years. It is a work of many years, and the whole land behind makes sacrifices to build those seaports up.

The CHAIRMAN. The secret treaty of London gave Croatia to the Jugo-Slavs.

Senator SWANSON. Yes; and I understand it gave a part of the coast of Dalmatia and the other coast to Italy.

Mr. KERZE. Yes, sir.

Senator SWANSON. You are not satisfied with the London treaty and are not satisfied with Fiume being made an international port, there? Mr. KERZE. No, sir; I am not satisfied with that secret treaty. Senator SWANSON. As Senator Knox says, what is it, specifically, that you want different from what has been decided?

Mr. KERZE. It is, specifically, this. We want everything that belongs to us, and we will give everything that does not belong to us. Senator SWANSON. What belongs to you? That is what we are trying to find out.

Mr. KERZE. As the map will show you, there are parts where there are fewer Jugo-Slavs, where there are not one-half of 1 per cent of Italians, and still Italy claims that, for strategical reasons, she must have those Jugo-Slavs.

Senator BRANDEGEE. Does your map show the boundaries of JugoSlavia the way the treaty defines them, and also the way you would like to have them?

Mr. KERZE. No, it does not show that.

Senator BRANDEGEE. Can you, after this hearing closes, mark on your map here the territory you would like to take in, and also what you think is justly due to you?

Mr. KERZE. Well, the most natural boundary would be-what we want is everything that is marked Jugo-Slav land [indicating on map]. Senator BRANDEGEE. In blue?

Mr. KERZE. Yes.

Senator BRANDEGEE. All right.

Senator HARDING. You said that these lines you did not want established by two or three diplomats. How do you propose that they should be established?

Mr. KERZE. I propose that they should be made between the territory where the Italians and the Jugo-Slavs are, and only the land that belongs to the city, because a city without lands can not exist; and those lands should be put under an international committee, and have the parties who are to be satisfied find a way of solution. They will find it, certainly, in the end.

Senator HARDING. Do you want to leave it to a league of nations to determine?

Mr. KERZE. Well, gentlemen, the league of nations is another question. I think the league of nations as the result of the peace conference was not the very best.

Senator HARDING. What I was trying to get at was just how you would have it decided. Do you want the intervention of the Senate in deciding this disposition of territory? Do you want it left to a plebiscite in the territory concerned?

Mr. KERZE. No.

Senator HARDING. Do you want a reconsideration by the peace conference? You are expressing your wishes to this committee. Precisely how do you want this undertaking in behalf of your brothers in Europe undertaken?

Mr. KERZE. Well, any way which would help to justice. A plebiscite would be the best way. If we take the boundaries of the old Austria, the boundaries which the London treaty claims, we are satisfied that a plebiscite be taken in those lands.

Senator POMERENE. How would you define the question so as to submit it to a plebiscite?

Mr. KERZE. The question? Well, the plebiscite would be under a neutral Government. The best Government in the world, there is no question about it, is the United States Government. We are entirely willing to submit our questions to this Government.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, on the north of Jugo-Slavia, how about the Hungarian boundary? You know we have had the Hungarians here and they have protested most vigorously that we have given all the relief to Jugo-Slavia.

Mr. KERZE. Well, I guess either of the nations which is directly or indirectly interested in this peace would be dissatisfied. The Hungarians are dissatisfied and the Jugo-Slavs are the same.

The CHAIRMAN. By "Hungarians" I mean the Magyars.

Mr. KERZE. The Magyars; yes, sir. We have quite a good population in Hungary; but Hungary, there, before the war was a great nationalistic state. There was no language allowed but the Hungarian. We had some Slovenes there, and it was not permitted to us to use our language in the schools or in the courts, or any place.