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Senator Fall. Mr. Chairman, I can not allow such historical distortions, made, of course unintentionally, to go into the record.

Senator Williams. We will let it speak for itself. The gentlemen will find it in Mr. Jefferson's answer.

Senator Fall. I challenge that statement.

The Chairman. I will say to the committee that I think the discussion of the Monroe Doctrine is hardly necessary at this point of the hearing of the Secretary.

Senator Willlvms. I have thought so all along.

The Chairman. Why did you indulge in it, then?

Senator Borah. Mr. Secretary, I do not desire to ask anything about the Monroe Doctrine. We all understood what it was, up to six months ago.

Secretary Lansing. I congratulate the Senator, because there seems to be a wide difference of opinion as to what it means. He may be the only man that knows.

Senator Borah. There has been no misunderstanding until lately.

Mr. Secretary, in order to get a connected statement as to the situation, at the time that Ishii appeared here for the purposo of consummating this agreement, the 21 demands were made, in the early part of the year 1915?

Secretary Lansing. Yes.

Senator Borah. The first four groups of those demands had been acceded to by China in her agreement with Japan in what is known as the Japanese-Chinese agreement?

Secretary Lansing. Yes.

Senator Borah. Then at the time that Ishii appeared here, the agreement, which followed the demands, had been made known to the world?

Secretary Lansing. Yes.

Senator Borah. Now, who suggested the proposition of inserting in the agreement which you made with Ishii this proposition of special interest?

Secretary Lansing. It was made by Count Ishii.

Senator Borah. You suggested to him that if that meant political control or paramount control, you did not care to discuss it?

Secretary Lansing. Yes.

Senator Borah. What did he say in reply to that, which would indicate that he waived that construction upon your part?

Secretary Lansing. He con turned the discussion.

Senator Borah. And continued it along what line?

Secretary Lansing. Well, only along the line that he inserted it in his counterdraft of a note and urged that it be included. But he understood exactly what I interpreted the words ''special interest" to mean.

Senator Borah. And you understood what he interpreted them to mean?

Secretary Lansing. No; I did not.

Senator Borah. He had said that his idea was that Japan had special interests in China which ought to be recognized, and by those special interests he meant paramount control?

Secretary Lansing. Yes; and I told him I would not consider it.

Senator Borah. Did he say, "Very well, I adopt that construction of it," or anything of that kind?

Secretary Lansing. No, hut he continued to introduce the words "special interest"; but he knew that if he did not take my meaning I could not continue the discussion.

Senator Borah. Is it not a fact that before and after he appeared, his country, officially or semiofficially, placed the construction upon it which Ishii placed upon it?

Secretary Lansing. Before?

Senator Borah. Yes.

Secretary Lansing. Not to my knowledge, further than his statement.

Senator Borah. I have a dispatch here from the Russian ambassador to his home Government, made October 22, 1917, in which he said that Japanese

Senator Pomerene. From what are you reading?

Senator Borah. From a copy of this dispatch published in "Democracy and the Eastern Question."

Secretary Lansing. By whom?

Senator Borah. By Mr. Millard. Is there any question about the authenticity of the dispatch?

Secretary Lansing. No question, because I do not know anything about it, except his publication of it.

Senator Borah. Do you have any doubt about this publication being correct, as to this dispatch?

Secretary Lansing. I have no information on the subject at all, one way or the other.

Senator Borah. Then you do not desire to have it inferred from your answer that it is false?

Secretary Lansing. No.

Senator Williams. Or true?

Secretary Lansing. No, neither one.

Senator Borah. We will read it and see whether time proves it to be true. [Reading:]

The Japanese are manifesting more and more clearly a tendency to interpret the special position of Japan in China, inter alia, in the sense that other powers must not undertake in China any political steps without previously exchanging views with Japan on the subject—a condition that would to some extent establish a Japanese control over the foreign affairs of China. On the other hand, the Japanese Government does not attach great importance to its recognition of the principle of the open door and the integrity of China, regarding it as merely a repetition of the assurances repeatedly given by it earlier to other powers and implying no new restrictions for the Japanese policy in China. It is therefore quite possible that in some future tune there may arise in this connection misunderstandings between the United States and Japan. The minister for foreign affairs again confirmed to-day in conversation with me that in the negotiations by Viscount Ishii the question at issue is not some special concession to Japan in these or other parti- of China, but Japan's special position in China as a whole.

That information, I take it, was unknown to you at the time you had your discussion with Ishii.

Secretary Lansing. That dispatch?

Senator Borah. Yes.

Secretary Lansing. Entirely so. I would call your attention to the fact that the Root-Takahira agreement included an arrangement between Japan and the United States that they would take no steps without consulting each other, and it would have the same effect as this statement made by the Russian Ambassador.

Senator Borah. And in another dispatch from the Russian Ambassador under date of November 1, 1917, there is another paragraph which I quote. [Reading:]

To my question whether he did not fear—

This was the Minister of Foreign Affairs for Japan that he was talking to—

that in the future misunderstandings might arise from the different interpretations by Japan and the United States of the meaning of the terms "special position" and "special interests" of Japan in China, Viscount Motono replied by saying that (a gap in the original). Nevertheless I gain the impression from the words of the minister that he is conscious of the possibility of misunderstandings also in the future, but is of the opinion that in such a case Japan would have better means at her disposal for carrying into effect her interpretation than the United States.

Now, it is a fact that you stated the other day, is it not, Mr. Secretary, that after this Lansing-Ishii agreement was made, Japan placed the construction upon it which Ishii desired to have you place upon it in the first instance?

Secretary Lansing. I have no recollection that there is any statement made by the Japanese Government as to the fact which you set forth.

Senator Borah. Have you information that it was made by the press of Japan?

Secretary Lansing. Oh, yes.

Senator Borah. And by publications which are under the control of the Government?

Secretary Lansing. That I do not know.

Senator Borah. Now, these notes between yourself and Count Ishii were published first in Japan, were they not?

Secretary Lansing. Yes.

Senator Borah. Was that in accordance with the understanding?

Secretary Lansing. I believe not. I believe they were published—I believe they came to the knowledge of China before they were made public.

Senator Borah. Japan presented the information of these notes to China?

Secretary Lansing. That is my recollection.

Senator Borah. Yes; and the first knowledge that the American ambassador had of the contents of the notes or that they existed came to him from the Japanese Government?

Secretary Lansing. That I can not tell you. Very likely that is so, however.

Senator Borah. They were published there. There was an agreement as to the date upon which they should be published and made known to the world?

Secretary Lansing. The 6th of November; four days after they were signed.

Senator Borah. And they were published in China and Japan prior to that time?

Secratary Lansing. I will not say that they were published.

Senator Borah. They were made known to China prior to that?

Secretary Lansing. Yes.

Senator Borah. And the information came back here prior to the time it should ha e been published?

Secretary Lansing. I think not. I do not think you could have had it by cable.

Senator Borah. The information came to this country not through the Secretary of State, but through cable from China and Japan.

Secretary Lansing. I can not tell that. I do not recall any such thing.

Senator Borah. The Chinese Legation issued a statement in the nature of a protest, November 12, 1917.

Secretary Lansing. Not a protest.

SenatorTborah. What do you regard it?

Secretary Lansing. A declaration, as she called it.

Senator Borah. I said, "in the nature of a protest." I should say, "a declaration."

Senator Hitchcock. That was after the publication?

Senator Borah. Yes. Of course they could not issue it before, because they did not know.

Senator Hitchcock. You intimated that the Chinese Government did have advance information, and I thought possibly you might be under the impression that they issued this proclamation before.

Senator Borah. If I led to that inference I should be corrected. It is declared [reading]:

The Government of the United States and the Government of Japan have recently, in order to silence mischievous reports, effected an exchange of notes at Washington concerning their desires and intentions with regard to China. Copies of the said notes have been communicated to the Chinese Government by the Japanese Minister at Peking; and the Chinese Government, in order to avoid misunderstanding, hastens to make the following declaration so as to make known the views of the Government.

The principle adopted by the Chinese Government towards the friendly nations has always been one of justice and equality; and consequently the rights enjoyed by the friendly nations derived from the treaties have been consistently respected, and so, even with the special relations between countries created by the fact of territorial contiguity, it is only in so far as they have already been provided for in her existing treaties. Hereafter the Chinese Government will still adhere to the principle hitherto adopted, and hereby it is again declared that the Chinese Government will not allow herself to be bound by any agreement entered into by other nations.

That last sentence undoubtedly had reference to the Ishii agreement?

Secretary Lansing. Yes.

Senator Borah. And they undoubtedly interpreted it as giving more than a geographical interest in China.

Secretary Lansing. That is an assumption that I do not think follows from the language.

Senator Borah. What is your construction of it?

Secretary Lansing. Simply that that was a very natural thing for a Government to issue a declaration of that sort because it was dealing more or less with her interests. I wish, since you have inserted the text of that declaration into the hearing, that you would also insert the title.

Senator Borah (reading):

Declaration of the Chinese Government concerning the notes exchanged between the Governments of the United States and Japan, dated November 2, 1917.

Senator Pomerene. May I suggest there that it would seem to be a natural thing for the Chinese Government to issue such a declaration in view of the fact that the newspapers of Japan had apparently placed a different construction upon the agreement from that which was entertained by the United States.

Senator Borah. I do not know whether they had prior to the 12th of November or not, because that was only five days after the publication in Japan.

Senator Pomerene. I had in mind the fact that you had stated that there were such publications.

Senator Borah. No doubi there were such views in the Japanese press.

I would like the Secretary to make clear to my untrained mind the difference between a declaration and a protest in the diplomatic world.

Secretary Lansing. There is a very decided difference. A protest calls for an answer, and a declaration does not.

Senator Hitchcock. The declaration was in entire accord with the American interpretation of the Lansing-Ishii agreement?

Secretary Lansing. Entirely, sir.

Senator Williams. The Monroe doctrine did not call for any answer.

Secretary Lansing. That declaration was delivered to the State Department here by the Chinese ambassador, and it was also delivered at the Japanese Government.

Senator Brandegee. May I ask you, Mr. Secretary, at the time you and Count Ishii were having your conversations in relation to this subject, and as to what "special interests" meant, did he say anything which would allow you to understand what he meant by the term "special interests"?

Secretary Lansing. Nothing further than I have stated.

Senator Brandegee. Did he at any time intimate that it meant paramountcy or interest different from that of any other nation, other than from Japan's propinquity to Chiina?

Secretary Lansing. My only recollection as to that is that he wished to have inserted the words "special interests and influence," and I objected seriously to the insertion of the words "and influence," and they were stricken out.

Senator Brandegee. He gave no intimation of what he understood by those terms? He did not attempt to define either "influence" or "special interests," did he?

Secretary Lansing. Nothing further than that, except that the insertion of the words "and influence" indicated that he understood fully my interpretation of "special interests."

Senator Brandegee. "Special interests" could not mean anything else, in your opinion, could it, except

Secretary Lansing. Political.

Senator Brandegee (continuing). Except political?

Secretary Lansing. That is true.

Senator Borah. That is all I want to ask.

Senator Johnson of California. Mr. Secretary, may I direct your attention again to what are termed the secret treaties published by Trotski after November, 1917, when the Kerensky government fell?

Up to the time of those publications and the transmission, as you have suggested, by the representative of the United States to our Government, did our Government have any knowledge whatsoever of those secret treaties?

Secretary Lansing. I think not, sir.

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