Secretary LANSING. And continue at war? Senator HARDING. Whatever you choose to call it. Secretary LANSING. I should doubt the feasibility of such a plan as that. Senator MCCUMBER. Not discussing the question of feasibility, can it be done under the treaty? Secretary LANSING. Not under the treaty, no. Senator McCUMBER. The question is not whether it is feasible, but could American citizens, with the consent of Germany herself, sell goods into Germany? Germany makes no objection, and we make no objection. What is to prevent our sending the goods into Germany, simply in spite of the fact that there is technically a state of war? Secretary LANSING. A great deal. We have none of the machinery of commerce. Senator MCCUMBER. We have ships and we have goods. They are the principal machinery. Secretary LANSING. That is not the only machinery that is neces sary. Senator MCCUMBER. It is difficult, we will say, without consular agents, but I am speaking now of the bare legal right. Secretary LANSING. Yes, but we would have no claim against a government with which we are at war, if she should violate her agree ment. Senator MCCUMBER. That would be a different proposition entirely. Senator FALL. Mr. Secretary, if the other Senators are through, I should like to go back to the subject that we were discussing. That is the question of trading between German nationals and American nationals and the German Government and the American Government, in view of your statement with reference to imports. That is certainly a matter of our municipal regulation. Secretary LANSING. It is. Senator FALL. In other words, unless we had the trading-with-theenemy act, which is municipal legislation adopted by the Congress of the United States, there would not have been any penalty at all attaching to trading between the citizens of this country and the citizens of Germany, although enemies, except the liability to seizure of the goods. There would not have been any penalty for such trading, except the liability of seizure, if it had not been for the trading-withthe-enemy act. Secretary LANSING. We have got to have a law fixing the penalty, of course. Senator FALL. Then, subject simply to seizure by the respective governments, either as contraband of war or because of the international rule against trading with the enemy, or because of our municipal law, the interchange of products between the two countries is prohibited; but under the international rule the only penalty would be the seizure of the goods and the loss of them, if intended for enemy consumption. Of course, a country has the right always, without municipal legislation, to prevent its citizens sending goods out of the country or trading with the enemy so as to assist the enemy in carrying on the war while we are at war with her. That would be the right of a government in self-protection; but there is no penalty except the seizure of the goods. We passed the trading-with-the-enemy act for the very purpose of providing a penalty, so that we could immediately seize the goods through our civil authorities as well as we ordinarily could seize them through our military authorities, in order to stop it. Now, there is power vested in the War Trade Board, so you say, to suspend that law in so far as imports from Germany are concerned. They have done that in the matter of potash. Of course, if they could do it in the matter of potash they could do it with reference to chemicals or any other product of Germany. There is no distinct provision in the law, as I recall it, which gives to the War Trade Board any such authority. My recollection of the trading-with-the-enemy act is that trading, either buying or selling, is prohibited under a penalty, and that the President of the United States may issue licenses allowing citizens of the United States, or presumably alien citizens, possibly enemies, to continue to trade under his license, under proper circumstances, in his discretion. That is the only provision that I find in the trading with the enemy act by which there can be any suspension of the penalty whatsoever; that is, at least in so far as our citizens are concerned. We can not penalize the Germans, because we can not catch them. But as soon as those goods come into the hands of citizens of the United States, unless they have a license from the President of the United States, would they not be liable under the trading-with-theenemy act? Secretary LANSING. I assume they would. Senator FALL. Then along with this declaration or proclamation authorizing the importation of potash there would be necessarily a license from the President to the party receiving the goods and distributing them, to relieve him from the penalties of the trading with the enemy act. Secretary LANSING. I presume that would be so, but I am not an expert on the provisions of that act, or on the operations of the War Trade Board, although it has recently been placed under the Department of State. Senator FALL. You readily understand the point I am getting at. Then this whole matter is a matter of municipal legislation under the act of Congress governing the trading. Secretary LANSING. Yes. Senator FALL. If the Congress of the United States to-day repealed the provisions contained in the trading-with-the-enemy act, then there would no longer be any penalties, and the trading would be free, would it not? Secretary LANSING. NO. Senator WILLIAMS. Except still the penalty of seizure? Secretary LANSING. The penalty of the seizure of the goods coming from Germany. Senator FALL. Then Congress could not repeal that at all. Senator FALL. My impression was that the war power belonged to Congress. Secretary LANSING. The war power, so far as the Military and Naval Establishments are concerned, rests very largely, I believe, with the President of the United States, as Commander in Chief. Senator FALL. Naturally the direction of the naval and military forces in time of war, of course, rests in the hands of the President. No one undertakes to assert the contrary; but the whole line of my questioning, with which I thought you were in agreement, was that this trading-with-the-enemy act could be suspended so that people could come in here with carloads or shiploads of potash and trade freely with the people of the United States, and that that was all in pursuance of this proclamation by the War Trade Board. Secretary LANSING. I think it takes a proclamation of the President to do that. Senator FALL. I thought you said that it was suspended, and that potash was being brought in. Senator WILLIAMS. Licensed. Secretary LANSING. Licensed by the President. Senator FALL. Not in so far as Germans are concerned. The President can not license Germans. He could license them to trade with us, of course, during the war, here in this country; but so far as the importation of potash into this country is concerned, the War Trade Board has issued a proclamation, and potash is being brought into this country at the demand of the farmers. Now, under the ruling of the War Trade Board, this is what is happening. I am not trying to put anybody in a hole or to take any advantage. I am trying to ascertain exactly where we stand; and I myself have suggested that in the face of the trading-with-the-enemy act passed by Congress, an American citizen accepting that potash here and undertaking to distribute it might become liable to the penalties provided in the act itself, unless he operated under a license from the President of the United States. I think that is a fair statement of it, as I understand the law. Senator WILLIAMS. I think so, too, except this, of course, which I wish to add, that the President made the War Trade Board his instrumentality for the purpose of granting these licenses. Senator FALL. I am not trying to criticize. I am trying to get at the facts. Senator WILLIAMS. That is all I am trying to do, and all anyone is trying to do, I think. Senator FALL. The Senator from Mississippi is entitled to amend the question, or to get such definition of the answer as he desires, if he can. Now, Mr. Secretary, to get back for a moment, you say you understand we are trading with Germany, and we are using the instrumentalities of the consular agents and consuls of other countries there for that purpose. Secretary LANSING. I did not say that, sir. Senator FALL. I misunderstood you. I asked you if it was not a fact, and I understood you to say that you understood it was. Secretary LANSING. I did not say that I knew that to be a fact. I said I thought so. Senator FALL. Are we trading with Germany at all? Secretary LANSING. I do not know anything about the actual trading that is going on with Germany. Senator FALL. If it is necessary that bills of lading should be viséed by consuls or consular agents, in order that intercourse be carried on between two countries, through their regular diplomatic agents or through consular agents or consuls of some other country acting for us, you would know it, would you not? That is in your department? Secretary LANSING. Yes, I assume so; unless something has been done while I was on the way over or while I was in Paris. If something had been done while I was away I might not know it, but I have no recollection of its having been brought to my attention since I returned. Senator FALL. Then you do not know, as a matter of fact, whether we are trading with the enemy or not? Secretary LANSING. As a matter of fact I do not know. I assume that we are. Senator FALL. If we are, we must necessarily be using some other instrumentality for the carrying on of such trade, must we not? Secretary LANSING. If we go to German ports, yes; but if we go to neutral ports instead of German ports, we do not need to. Senator FALL. Assuming that we are trading directly with German ports, then we must use some instrumentality, like the consuls or consular agents of neutrals? Secretary LANSING. Yes. Senator FALL. Prior to the war we had a consular agreement with Germany. Secretary LANSING. Yes. Senator FALL. We first had consular agreements with Prussia and the Hanseatic towns, and Bavaria, and various other independent States. Secretary LANSING. Yes. Senator FALL. And then we had a consular agreement with the German Empire? Secretary LANSING. Yes. Senator FALL. And that was suspended during the war? Secretary LANSING. It was abrogated before the war. Senator FALL. I mean it was in effect up to the time that we dismissed von Bernstorff and broke off diplomatic relations. Secretary LANSING. It had been abrogated prior to that. Senator FALL. It had? Secretary LANSING. Yes; following the Seaman's act. We abrogated about 23 consular treaties at that time. Senator FALL. You have reference to the La Follette Act? Senator FALL. We abrogated that how? Secretary LANSING. We gave notice to the Governments. According to the terms of the consular treaties, and treaties which contained consular provisions, we gave notice to the various Governments that we abrogated that portion, or the whole treaty, Senator FALL. Did we withdraw our consuls and consular agents from Germany? Secretary LANSING. We did not. It was permissive that they would continue, so as not to interrupt the trade. Senator FALL. What functions did they perform? Secretary LANSING. The same functions that they had performed previously, but under the general provision as to consular officers. Senator FALL. That general provision was never abrogated by the United States Government, except as it was suspended by the declaration of war by the Congress of the United States. Secretary LANSING. Yes; I think that is true. I think your statement of that is correct. Senator FALL. We continued doing business with Germany right along? Secretary LANSING. We did. Senator FALL. Except in so far as the particular provisions with reference to desertions of sailors in ports, and so forth, were concerned. Secretary LANSING. Of course there were not very many American ships entering German ports. Senator FALL. No, but the provisions of this seaman's act to which you have reference were with regard to seamen who should desert or leave ships in port? Secretary LANSING. Yes. Senator FALL. And subsequent to the passage of the La Follette Act, which abrogated these treaties, we notified these countries that these particular provisions in these consular treaties were abrogated. Secretary LANSING. Yes. Senator FALL. As to the other provisions, they remained in full force and effect until we declared war. Secretary LANSING. They did remain in effect with certain countries. Senator FALL. With Germany? Secretary LANSING. That I can not tell you without examining the act. I presume the whole treaty fell in that particular case, because we had a special consular treaty. Senator FALL. Then if the whole treaty fell, and we continued to do business with Germany, all that is necessary is that there be by the President, whom I assume to be the proper authority, or by some other proper authority, a declaration that peace exists between Germany and the United States, and those consular agreements or arrangements would be restored. Secretary LANSING. So far as they are concerned it would bewhen peace is restored, those provisions would be restored. Senator WILLIAMS. Senator, if you will pardon me, I should like to ask a question right there, more as a matter of curiosity, because it relates to this. Senator FALL. Certainly. Senator WILLIAMS. How far did our cutting off diplomatic relations with Germany affect our consular service, before the declaration of war? Secretary LANSING. We withdrew our consular officers at the same time. Senator WILLIAMS. At once? Senator FALL. I noticed in yesterday's dispatches among other things a statement that Rumania would decline to be bound or to abide by or to enter into treaties such as are provided in this treaty that is pending before us, for the protection of racial and religious minorities. Have you had any information upon that subject? Secretary LANSING. None at all. Senator FALL. Has your attention been called to the Associated Press dispatches? |