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there were three reports, and where those stenographic reports are I do not know. What we got was the printed proces verbaux after the conference.

Senator Johnson of California. At the conclusion of each session I presume in some fashion they were marked so as to indicate their official character?

Secretary Lansing. Oh, yes. They were in print. They were in printed form.

Senator Johnson of California. They were in printed form. Are those in your pssession now?

Secretary Lansing. I do not know, but I could find out easily.

Senator Johnson of California. I was asked to ask you how many sessions of the conference were held?

Secretary Lansing. That I can not tell.

Senator Johnson of California. There is, however, in existence, of course, an absolute and an accurate record of everything that was done by the peace conference?

Secretary Lansing. Yes.

Senator Johnson of California. Is there as well in existence an accurate record of all that was done concerning the league of nations?

Secretary Lansing. That I do not know. I have never seen that.

Senator Johnson of California. What was it that you wired to or that you assisted in preparing a wire for—I do not just grasp which it was—to Clemenceau concerning the proceedings upon the league of nations?

Secretary Lansing. It was the proces verbal.

Senator Johnson of California. The proces verbal?

Secretary Lansing. Of the commission.

Senator Johnson of California. Did you deem that the proces verbal—which, I take it, is a recapitulation or a resume' of the proceedings of the particular session, I am correct in that, am I not?

Secretary Lansing. Yes.

Senator Johnson of California. Officially gotten up by your representatives?

Secretary Lansing. By the secretary of the commission on the league of nations.

Senator Johnson of California. Exactly. It was in relation to the process verbal that Clemenceau was wired that it should not be given to the French Senate?

Secretary Lansing. Yes.

Senator Johnson of California. And do you take the same attitude regarding this committee and this Senate regarding the proces verbal of the league of nations 1

Secretary Lansing. I should; yes.

Senator Johnson of California. On the theory that it would be irritating?

Secretary Lansing. It might be.

Senator Johnson of California. Do you mean to other nations \

Secretary Lansing. To other nations; not to this Nation at all.

Senator Johnson of California. And because it might be irritatinsr. therefore, your position is that this Senate and our people ought not to be permitted to have the detail of the proceedings?

Secretary Lansing. Of the arguments—that is what it is. It is debate.

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Senator Johnson of California. Is the proces verbal the arguments?

Secretary Lansing. Yes.

Senator Johnson of California. A mere resume^ though?

Secretary Lansing. The debate.

Senator Johnson of California. But it is a brief account; it is not an extended account of the debates, is it?

Secretary Lansing. Oh, sometimes quite extensive; much more full than our minutes are in such cases.

Senator Johnson of California. Would you object to this committee having them in executive session?

Secretary Lansing. Personally, I have no objection at all. I do not know anything about them. I have never seen them.

Senator Johnson of California. If you do not know anything about them, and have never seen them, why should you wire Clemenceau?

Secretary Lansing. On the general principle.

Senator Johnson of California. Just what general principle.

Secretary Lansing. On the general principle that I would not submit the proces verbaux of a commission without the consent of all the other governments that were parties.

Senator Johnson of California. Without knowing anything about them, without knowing whether they would be irritating, on the general principle that they might be irritating^—

Secretary Lansing. Yes.

Senator Johnson of California (continuing). You would not permit them to be seen?

Secretary Lansing. Yes; because if you open the door once I know it will make trouble.

Senator Johnson of California. Would that be your attitude now, without any knowledge of the situation at all, on the theory that it might be irritating; that in executive session you would not desire—

Secretary Lansing. That would be, until I was shown it was the other way.

Senator Johnson of California. Where are those proces verbaux at the present time?

Secretary Lansing. I have not the slightest idea. I have never seen them.

Senator Johnson of California. Have you any continuous resume" or recapitulation other than that in the proceedings upon the league of nations?

Secretary Lansing. Just a moment. What was that question?

Senator Johnson of California. Other than the proces verbal, have you any account, any resume, any recapitulation, other than the proceedings of the conference on the league of nations?

Secretary Lansing. No; I have not even that.

Senator Johnson of California. Have you any other resume" or any other recapitulation than the proces verbal of the proceedings of the peace conference?

Secretary Lansing. No; I do not think there were any others. I do not know about the minutes, the stenographic minutes. I can not tell you whether I have those or not.

Senator Johnson of California. I asked you the question because I did not know but what, for your own personal use or for the use of the American commission, there might have been, other than that, a separate and distinct account.

Secretary Lansing. I have no doubt there was, but I have never used it.

Senator Johnson of California. You have never used it?

Secretary Lansing. No; I have never used it.

Senator Johnson of California. You were asked by Senator Hitchcock about the secret treaties, and I wanted to make it plain in that regard. Is it not a fact that since the completion of this treaty Britain has announced that she recognizes the treaties she has made in the past, and will stand by those treaties?

Secretary Lansing. Yes.

Senator Johnson of California. That is quite true, is it not?

Secretary Lansing. I think it is true.

Senator Johnson of California. Is it not a fact that that announcement of hers applies to the league of nations, and did it not specifically apply, in the announcement, to the league of nations as well as generally?

Secretary Lansing. I do not understand your question.

Senator Johnson of California. I mean this, that the treaties that are in existence now by which Britain considers herself bound, whether there be a league of nations or no league of nations—Britain considers herself bound by those treaties. That is true, is it not?

Secretary Lansing. Yes.

Senator Johnson of California. I am glad I asked you, because I think there was some misapprehension in regard to that—it night have been wholly mine—that these treaties would have been abrogated by the league of nations.

Senator Hitchcock. Let me insert in the record what I was referring to. It is article 20. [Reading:]

The members of the league severally agree that this covenant is accepted as abrogating all obligations or understandings inter se which are inconsistent with the terms thereof, and solemnly undertake that they will not hereafter enter into any engagements inconsistent with the terms thereof. In case any member of the league shall, before becoming a member of the league, have undertaken any obligations inconsistent with the terms of this covenant, it shall be the duty of such member to tike immediate steps to procure its release from such obligations.

Senator Brandegee. There could not be any inconsistency, because in terms they say, in article 21, "treaties of arbitration or regional understandings."

Senator Johnson of California. I did not want to argue the question with you at all, but that very point, as I recall the British announcement, was taken up, and Great Britain contended that there was nothing inconsistent in her duties—just as all treaties are assumed by those who make them to be treaties of peace, treaties to prevent war, not offensive treaties at all in their character. Whether they are offensive or defensive in character, the nations making them assume that they are wholly defensive, and Britain, as she says, has observed these treaties and will observe them in the future, notwithstanding any league of nations.

Senator Williams. In other words, she says that she has not any treaties which are inconsistent.

Senator Johnson of California. Exactly.

Senator Williams. And if that was so, we have no quarrel with her.

Senator Johnson of California. Yes, exactly.

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Senator Hitchcock. That is a matter that would come on China's presentation, and will come before the league of nations on what China has said she will bring before the league of nations at the proper time.

The Chairman. I think that had better be stated correctly. China said that she would be willing to sign if she could bring it before the league of nations and was not precluded from doing so.

Senator Hitchcock. China will present

The Chairman. I am talking about what China did; and she was not allowed to sign, even with that reservation.

Senator Hitchcock. The representatives of China have said that they proposed to bring it before the league of nations, and that they have a case in court.

Senator Borah. It will not stay in court very long. [Laughter.]

Senator Hitchcock. I wanted to ask a question in connection with the question Senator Johnson asked.

Senator Johnson of California. I have a long list here, and we might as well adjourn here for luncheon.

Senator Hitchcock. He alluded to this expert here, who is said to have resigned on account of the Shantung agreement.

Secretary Lansing. What expert was that?

Senator Hitchcock. Did he resign?

Secretary Lansing. No, he did not—not on that account.

Senator Hitchcock. What expert was referred to there!

Secretary Lansing. Bullit, I think.

Senator Hitchcock. Senator Johnson was insisting upon having it read that way, "because he considered the Shantung convention immoral"

Senator Johnson of California. No, I have no such intention, and had no such intention. I had no design of that kind.

Senator Hitchcock. I will alter it, then.

Senator Johnson of California. I think you ought to.

Senator Hitchcock. I will say, when the Senator from California was questioning the witness.

Senator Johnson of California. That is the better way to put it.

Senator Hitchcock. He stated that one of the experts had resigned because he considered the Shantung convention immoral. I want to ask if that expert was engaged as an expert on morals.

Senator Williams. No; there is only one, that is here.

Senator Borah. There is only one expert there on morals.

Senator Hitchcock. That expert was not there on morals?

Secretary Lansing. No.

Senator Borah. I just want to ask the Secretary one question. If we desired to have the discussions which went on somewhere in Paris with reference to article 21, the views expressed at the time when they were arriving at the understanding as to what regional understandings mean, etc., what would we call for?

Secretary Lansing. I do not know. I do not think they had stenographic reports.

Senator Borah. Then there must have been some person whom we could call before this body who would know about it?

Secretary Lansing. Col. House.

Senator Borah. How soon do you expect Col. House in this country?

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Secretary Lansing. I have not any idea.

Senator Borah. Is there any way by which we could communicate with him and find out?

Secretary Lansing. I suppose so.

Senator Williams. Wire him.

Secretary Lansing. Wire him.

Senator Borah. Where could we wire him?

Secretary Lansing. You could reach him through the American embassy in London.

Senator Knox. In London. Mr. Chairman, in view of the fact that the Senator from California has indicated that he has quite a number of questions to ask, and that we can not complete the examination in one session, I move that we adjourn until 2 o'clock.

Senator Swanson. Or half past 2.

Senator Borah. Before we do that let me ask the Secretary this: Could you secure this other information by 2 o'clock, Mr. Secretary!

Secretary Lansing. I doubt it.

Senator Borah. Very well.

The Chairman. The Secretary can return to-morrow.

Senator Knox. Some one has suggested that half past 2 would be a more convenient hour than 2.

Senator Swanson. Yes; I think so.

Senator Knox. I will modify my motion, then.

The Chairman. The motion is that the committee adjourn until half past 2 o'clock. Without objection, that will be done.

(Thereupon, at 12.30 o'clock p. m., the committee adjourned until 2.30 o'clock p. m.)

AFTERNOON SESSION.

The committee met at 2.30 p. m., pursuant to the taking of the recess.

STATEMENT OF HON. ROBERT LANSING, SECRETARY OF

STATE—Continued.

The Chairman. The Senator from North Dakota (Mr. McCumber) is obliged to leave early this afternoon, and would like to ask the Secretary some questions before he goes.

Senator Mccumber. Mr. Secretary, can you give us the history, the genesis, of this chapter upon the labor provisions?

Secretary Lansing. No, sir; I can not.

Senator Mccumber. You have read it over carefully, I presume?

Secretary Lansing. I have read it; yes.

Senator Mccumber. And are acquainted with all of its provisions?

Secretary Lansing. I was at one time. I can not say that I am at the present moment.

Senator Mccumber. Do you know who drafted the provisions?

Secretary Lansing. I do not.

Senator Mccumber. Nor how they were drafted?

Secretary Lansing. No; I do not.

Senator Mccumber. Or how accepted?

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