treaties existed between Japan and the British, Japan and France, and Japan and Italy, concerning the disposition of Shantung. Is that an accurate statement? Secretary LANSING. I do not know. I never heard of it except in the newspapers. Senator JOHNSON of California. You probably saw that item that was cabled across as one of the dramatic incidents of the peace conference? Secretary LANSING. Yes. Mr. JOHNSON of California. When that occurred you were not present? Secretary LANSING. I was not present and knew nothing of it. Senator JOHNSON of California. Were not the secret treaties a matter of discussion constantly at the peace conference. Secretary LANSING. No. Senator JOHNSON of California. Were you familiar with the treaties that had been made after the commencement of the war concerning the disposition of territory by the different belligerents? Secretary LANSING. I was more familiar with the London agreement, that affected the Italian boundaries, than any other. Senator JOHNSON of California. Were you familiar with any other agreements between Secretary LANSING. No. Senator JOHNSON of California. Did you know that any such existed? Secretary LANSING. NO. Senator JOHNSON of California. Did you not read of them at the time of the Russian revolution? Secretary LANSING. Yes; I knew about the British and the Japanese treaty. Senator JOHNSON of California. Yes; but did you not read of other treaties as well? Secretary LANSING. No. Senator JOHNSON of California. Did you not ever know of such treaties? Secretary LANSING. NO. Senator JOHNSON of California. Do you know now of any such treaties as to territorial disposition except those that you have mentioned? Secretary LANSING. NO. Senator JOHNSON of California. Do you know whether or not any treaties were made with reference to Syria, Mesopotamia, and the like! Secretary LANSING. No; I have read of it since. Senator JOHNSON of California. Since you came home? Secretary LANSING. Yes. Senator JOHNSON of California. Before you came home you never heard of it at all? Secretary LANSING. I may have heard of it at Paris, but whether there was discussion of it, I have no recollection. Senator JOHNSON of California. Do you know whether or not the territorial disposition made under the treaties and those that are being made, are being made in accordance with the secret treaties ! Secretary LANSING. You mean in Turkey? Senator JOHNSON of California. Those in regard to Mesopotamia, Syria, and Turkey; yes. Secretary LANSING. No. Senator WILLIAMS. Italy, then, in contending for the town of Fiume, is contending not only for all the so-called secret treaty arrangements made with her, but is contending for more? Secretary LANSING. Yes. Of course I confess I do not quite understand the line of these questions, because I do not see what they have to do with the treaty of peace with Germany. Senator WILLIAMS. The line of the questions is to attack the treaty and the league of nations. Secretary LANSING. I know, but I am simply trying to answer what will be useful in connection with the German treaty. Senator BORAH. Mr. Secretary, I think you will find that those special agreements, secret agreements, were made on the following dates: The British agreement February 16, 1917; the French agreement March 3, 1917; the Russian agreement February 20, 1917; the Italian agreement March 7, 1917. Senator WILLIAMS. And all of that was after Japan had conquered the German possessions in Shantung. Senator BORAH. And just before Ishii came over here to get his agreement with this country. Secretary LANSING. No; Ishii Senator BORAH. No; it was in November, 1917. Secretary LANSING. 1917. Senator WILLIAMS. That what took place-oh, that Ishii made his agreement? Senator BORAH. Yes. Senator WILLIAMS. I was not talking about the Ishii agreement. Senator JOHNSON of California. Does the fact that is apparently established now, that these secret treaties were made before your agreement with Ishii, bring to your mind any of the particular conditions? Secretary LANSING. No; I would have to refresh my memory on that. Senator JOHNSON of California. You do not recall that you had in mind these treaties at all? Secretary LANSING. I did not know about these treaties at that time. Senator JOHNSON of California. You did not know about these treaties at the time of the Lansing-Ishii agreement, as it is called? Secretary LANSING. No. Senator JOHNSON of California. You said you did not understand the exact line of the questions that I was asking. I do not wish to be repetitive or insistent, but I ask you again, do you not remember the publication even in this country of the treaties for the disposition of territory, after the war and in the peace, of the various belligerents? Secretary LANSING. No, sir; I confess I do not. When were they published? Senator JOHNSON of California. They were published-I got my copies in the New York Evening Post. Secretary LANSING. At what time? Senator JOHNSON of California. Oh, it was a long time ago; I can not tell you how long ago; long before the armistice, you know, during the war. Secretary LANSING. Well, possibly that is so. 135546-19-13 Secretary LANSING. No. Senator WILLIAMS. Mr. Lansing, this treaty between Great Britain and Japan and the treaty between France and Japan, and Italy and Japan, these treaties were all entered into before or after Japan had conquered the part of Shantung which she did conquer from Germany! Secretary LANSING. Mr. Senator, I never have seen the text of any one of those treaties, and I am not at all sure when they were entered into. Senator WILLIAMS. As a matter of fact Japan did reconquer from Germany the part of Shantung which Germany had held? Secretary LANSING. Yes. Senator WILLIAMS. Now you do not know whether her agreement with Great Britain and France antedated that conquest or postdated it. Secretary LANSING. I can not tell you. Senator BORAH. I was going to give him the dates. They were made in March and February, 1917. Senator WILLIAMS. Which ones? Senator BORAH. The secret treaties. Secretary LANSING. They were made in 1916, not 1917. Senator WILLIAMS. If they were made in 1917, they were made after Japan had conquered the country. Secretary LANSING. Yes. Senator WILLIAMS. Senator Johnson was questioning you about Mesopotamia. The Mesopotamian question as well as the Syrian and Armenian questions will have to be settled in the treaty with Turkey? Secretary LANSING. Yes. Senator WILLIAMS. But that treaty has not been negotiated? Senator WILLIAMS. And whatever treaty is effected by the allied and associated powers, or rather the allied powers, that treaty of peace with Turkey will settle those questions!" Secretary LANSING. Yes. Senator WILLIAMS. Is there any reason why the United States should be a party to a treaty of peace with Turkey? We never had any war with Turkey, did we! Secretary LANSING. I answered that earlier. Senator WILLIAMS. Did you? Very well, I beg your pardon. Secretary LANSING. The thought of the President had been that we should be a signatory to the treaty in that we took part in the negotiations with them. Senator WILLIAMS. Yes; I understand that. There was no reason why we should establish peace with Turkey, not having had war with her? Secretary LANSING. Oh, no; absolutely not. Senator WILLIAMS. And therefore we are not necessarily parties to that treaty. Now, I want to ask you another question. This treaty between Italy on the one hand and Great Britain and France upon the other as to the Dalmatian coast, that part of Italy Irredenta, as it was claimed, in which they agreed that it should go to Italy at the end of the war-did that treaty include the town of Fiume? Secretary LANSING. No. Senator WILLIAMS. Italy, then, in contending for the town of Fiume, is contending not only for all the so-called secret treaty arrangements made with her, but is contending for more? Secretary LANSING. Yes. Of course I confess I do not quite understand the line of these questions, because I do not see what they have to do with the treaty of peace with Germany. Senator WILLIAMS. The line of the questions is to attack the treaty and the league of nations. Secretary LANSING. I know, but I am simply trying to answer what will be useful in connection with the German treaty. Senator BORAH. Mr. Secretary, I think you will find that those special agreements, secret agreements, were made on the following dates: The British agreement February 16, 1917; the French agreement March 3, 1917; the Russian agreement February 20, 1917; the Italian agreement March 7, 1917. Senator WILLIAMS. And all of that was after Japan had conquered the German possessions in Shantung. Senator BORAH. And just before Ishii came over here to get his agreement with this country. Secretary LANSING. No; Ishii Senator BORAH. No; it was in November, 1917. Secretary LANSING. 1917. Senator WILLIAMS. That what took place-oh, that Ishii made his agreement? Senator BORAH. Yes. Senator WILLIAMS. I was not talking about the Ishii agreement. Senator JOHNSON of California. Does the fact that is apparently established now, that these secret treaties were made before your agreement with Ishii, bring to your mind any of the particular conditions? Secretary LANSING. No; I would have to refresh my memory on that. Senator JOHNSON of California. You do not recall that you had in mind these treaties at all? Secretary LANSING. I did not know about these treaties at that time. Senator JOHNSON of California. You did not know about these treaties at the time of the Lansing-Ishii agreement, as it is called? Secretary LANSING. No. Senator JOHNSON of California. You said you did not understand the exact line of the questions that I was asking. I do not wish to be repetitive or insistent, but I ask you again, do you not remember the publication even in this country of the treaties for the disposition of territory, after the war and in the peace, of the various belligerents? Secretary LANSING. No, sir; I confess I do not. When were they published? Senator JOHNSON of California. They were published-I got my copies in the New York Evening Post. Secretary LANSING. At what time? Senator JOHNSON of California. Oh, it was a long time ago; I can not tell you how long ago; long before the armistice, you know, during the war. Secretary LANSING. Well, possibly that is so. 135546-19-13 Senator JOHNSON of California. During the war they were first published? Secretary LANSING. Yes; I do not remember at all. Sentor POMERENE. May I ask, for my own information, are you referring now to the publication of these treaties as made by the Russian Government? Senator JOHNSON of California. Yes; I think Kerensky published them first, and then they appeared in the New York Evening Post. Senator POMERENE. I remember seeing them there. Senator JOHNSON of California. I can not ask you anything about that because you say you do not know anything about those secret treaties, but if it was demonstrated as a fact that the territorial administrations were made and were being made in Paris according to those secret treaties--but I will no ask you anything about those secret treaties because you are not familiar with them. I make that explanation because you said you did not understand the trend of the questions I asked. Secretary LANSING. You mean in connection with the German treaty? Senator JOHNSON of California. Not only in connection with the German treaty, but in connection with the treaties that are being made now. However, I pass that because of your unfamiliarity with the various treaties. Now, did the American commissioner have any particular theory concerning reparations under the German treaty? Secretary LANSING. That question also I would like to know what you mean by. We had the general theory in regard to reparations that Germany could never pay for the damage that she had caused, and that she should pay just so far as she was able. That was the whole policy of our commission. Senator JOHNSON of California. To determine how much she could pay, and assess it against her? Secretary LANSING. Yes. Senator JOHNSON of California. Did you do it? Secretary LANSING. So far as possible. Senator JOHNSON of California. How did you do it? Secretary LANSING. How do you mean? Senator JOHNSON of California. How did you assess what she should pay? Secretary LANSING. We have not assessed what she should pay. Senator JOHNSON of California. That is what I asked you. Secretary LANSING. It could not be done. Senator JOHNSON of California. It could not be done? Secretary LANSING. It could not be done. Senator JOHNSON of California. It has not been done. Secretary LANSING. No. Senator JOHNSON of California. Is it a possibility that it shall be done? Secretary LANSING. Yes. Senator JOHNSON of California. Through the reparation commission? Secretary LANSING. Yes. Senator JOHNSON of California. When that has determined the amount to be assessed? Secretary LANSING. Yes. |