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Senator Johnson of California. Ten. [Reading:]

The peoples of Austria-Hungary, whose place among the nations we wish to see safeguarded and assured, should be accorded the freest opportunity of autonomous development.

Has that been done?

Secretary Lansing. I think so.

Senator Johnson of California. In all eleven. [Reading:]

Rumania, Serbia, and Montenegro should be evacuated; occupied territories restored: Serbia accorded free and secure access to the sea; and the relations of the several Balkan States to one another determined by friendly counsel along historically established lines of allegiance and nationality; and international guaranties of the political and economic independence and territorial integrity of the several Balkan States should be entered into.

Was that done?

Secretary Lansing. Not yet. The treaties have not been made covering that.

Senator Johnson of California. Twelve relates to the Turkish Empire, the Ottoman Empires, which I presume are in process of adjustment, and have not been made as yet by the German treaty?

Secretary Lansing. Not yet.

Senator Johnson of California. Thirteen. [Reading:]

An independent Polish State should be erected which should include the territories inhabited by indisputably Polish populations, which should be assured a free and secure access to the sea, and whose political and economic independence and territorial integrity should be guaranteed by international covenant.

Has that been accomplished?

Secretary Lansing. Yes.

Senator Johnson of California. XIV relates to the association in a league of nations. So that you feel that your answer this morning, that substantially all of the 14 points have been carried out, is correct, do you?

Secretary Lansing. I do, sir.

Senator Johnson of California. The Shantung decision, was that within any of the 14 points?

Secretary Lansing. Well, I do not recall what one.

Senator Johnson of California. It was rather contrary to some, was it not?

Secretary Lansing. I do not know which one you refer to. Which point do you refer to?

Senator Johnson of California. Well, there is one concerning racial characteristics, and the like, that I thought it might be contrary to.

Secretary Lansing. I thought that was especially in relation to Austria-Hungary.

Senator Johnson of California. And one in relation to Italy, too. There was another point about self-determination; that might cover that.

Secretary Lansing. In the 14 points?

Senator Johnson of California. It was in a subsequent address containing four additional points, if you recall, called general statement. It hardly would come under the consummation of selfdetermination, would it?

Secretary Lansing. No; I should think not.

The Chairman. If the Senator from California will allow me to interrupt. We have four points laid down at Mount Vernon the 4th of July, 1918, and the second one is:

The settlement of every question, whether of territory, of sovereignty, of economic arrangement, or of political relationship, upon the basis of the free acceptance of that settlement by the people immediately concerned, and not upon the basis of the material interest or advantage of any other nation or people which may desire a different settlement for the sake of its own exterior influence or mastery.

That seems to me, perhaps, to cover the Shantung case.

Senator Johnson of California. Yes; I presume that I am not incorrect in saying that that violates the Shantung decision, violates the provision that has been read, does it not?

Secretary Lansing. Yes.

Senator Johnson of California. When the American delegates went to Paris, did they have any particular or specific ideas in reference to reparations?

Senator Borah. Senator Johnson, before you take that up, will you permit me to ask a question?

Senator Johnson of California. Surely.

Senator Borah. Mr. Secretary, after the decision in the Shantung affair, after this adjustment finally found itself in the treaty, I have been informed that either the President or some representative of the President notified the Chinese delegates as to the settlement that had to be made. Do you know who it was that notified them, whether it was the President or some other person?

Secretary Lansing. No.

Senator Borah. Or whether some other individual.

Secretary Lansing. I can not tell you that.

Senator Borah. Do you know anything about the communication which was carried to them, the message which was taken to them, and the explanation which was given to them?

Secretary Lansing. Well, I knew something about it, but I can not recall what.

Senator Borah. Before you return to the stand, if you have any information in the State Department or any memorandum of your own by which you could give me the information as to who carried that message, whether it was the President or some one for him, I would be glad to have it.

Secretary Lansing. I can assure you now that I have no such memorandum.

Senator Johnson of California. Do you recall that a message was taken to them?

Secretary Lansing. There was some communication taken to them. In what form it was given I am not at all sure.

Senator Johnson of California. Do you know whether or not the Chinese were denied the right of attaching their signature to the treaty, with a protest?

Secretary Lansing. That I do not know. I heard so.

Senator Johnson of California. Do you know whether or not they were denied the right of signature to the treaty with a reservation i

Secretary Lansing. That would be the same thing.

Senator Johnson of California. By whose authority was that done!

Secretary Lansing. It would naturally be done t>y the heads of the States.

[graphic]

Senator Johnson of California. Only by the heads of States?

Secretary Lansing. Of the council.

Senator Johnson of California. Not by the general peace conference?

Secretary Lansing. No.

Senator Knox. Was anybody allowed to sign with protest?

Secretary Lansing. No; there was no one.

Senator Knox. Did not Smuts make a protest?

Secretary Lansing. Yes; but he signed the treaty without it.

Senator Knox. Without the protest?

Secretary Lansing. Yes, sir.

Senator Pomerene. That is, without incorporating it as a part of his signature?

Secretary Lansing. Yes.

Senator Knox. But he did it at the time of affixing his signature, did he not? ^

Secretary Lansing. It was issued later. *

Senator Johnson of California. Could you tell me whether or not in the American draft of the league of nations a central international police power was proposed?

Secretary Lansing. That I do not know. In the American draft?

Senator Johnson of California. Yes.

Secretary Lansing. I do not know, but my recollection is there was not, but I would not want to commit myself on the subject.

Senator Johnson of California. Do you know whether there was an international police power under an international management and control, under which each nation should contribute its proportionate share of naval armament, etc., whether that was a part of the American proposal?

Secretary Lansing. I do not, but my impression would be that there was not.

Senator Johnson of California. Do you recall any discussion upon that particular subject?

Secretary Lansing. No; I do not.

Senator Johnson of California. Can you recall whether or not England objected to any such provision and said that she would not permit it!

Secretary Lansing. No; I do not know. I never had any discussion with the British on the subject.

Senator Johnson of California. Did you discuss personally with any of the foreign commissioners the various provisions of the league of nations I

Secretary Lansing. I did not but once, that was very early in the proceedings, and it was very general.

Senator Johnson of California. And subsequently to that time you did not at all 1

Secretary Lansing, Not at all, not. after the commission was organized.

Senator Johnson of California. There was a very dramatic dispatch that came over to this country at the time of the Shantung decision which stated, as I recall it, substantially that the question arose and then the Japanese commissioners said that the matter had been determined, and upon the Presidents inquiry as to how it had been determined, it developed then for the first time that the secret

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treaties existed between Japan and the British, Japan and France, and Japan and Italy, concerning the disposition of Shantung. Is that an accurate statement?

Secretary Lansing. I do not know. I never heard of it except V in the newspapers.

Senator Johnson of California. You probably saw that item that was cabled across as one of the dramatic incidents of the peace conference?

Secretary Lansing. Yes.

Mr. Johnson of California. When that occurred you were not present?

Secretary Lansing. I was not present and knew nothing of it.

Senator Johnson of California. Were not the secret treaties a matter of discussion constantly at the peace conference.

Secretary Lansing. No.

Senator Johnson of California. Were you familiar with the treaties that had been made after the commencement of the war concerning the disposition of territory by the different belligerents*

Secretary Lansing. I was more familiar with the London agreement, that affected the Italian boundaries, than any other.

Senator Johnson of California. Were }*ou familiar with any other agreements between

Secretary Lansing. No.

Senator Johnson of California. Did you know that any such existed?

Secretary Lansing. No.

Senator Johnson of California. Did you not read of them at the time of the Russian revolution?

Secretary Lansing. Yes; I knew about the British and the Japanese treaty.

Senator Johnson of California. Yes; but did you not read of other treaties as well?

Secretary Lansing. No.

Senator Johnson of California. Did you not ever know of such treaties?

Secretary Lansing. No.

Senator Johnson of California. Do you know now of any such treaties as to territorial disposition except those that you have mentioned?

Secretary Lansing. No.

Senator Johnson of California. Do you know whether or not any treaties were made with reference to Syria, Mesopotamia, and the like i

Secretary Lansing. No: I have read of it since.

Senator Johnson of California. Since you came home (

Secretary Lansing. Yes.

Senator Johnson of California. Before you came home you never heard of it at all?

Secretary Lansing. I may have heard of it at Paris, but whether there was discussion of it, I have no recollection.

Senator Johnson of California. Do you know whether or not the territorial disposition made under the treaties and those that are being made, are being made in accordance with the secret treaties i

Secretary Lansing. You mean in Turkey?

Senator Johnson of California. Those in regard to Mesopotamia. Syria, and Turkey; yes.

[graphic]

Secretary Lansing. No.

Senator Williams. Italy, then, in contending for the town of Fiume, is contending not only for all the so-called secret treaty arrangements made with her, but is contending for more?

Secretary Lansing. Yes. Of course I confess I do not quite understand the line of these questions, because 1 do not see what they have to do with the treaty of peace with Germany.

Senator Williams. The line of the questions is to attack the treaty and the league of nations.

Secretary Lansing. 1 know, but I am simply trying to answer what will be useful in connection with the German treaty.

Senator Borah. Mr. Secretary, 1 think you will find that those special agreements, secret agreements, were made on the following dates: The British agreement February 16, 1917; the French agreement March 3, 1917; the Russian agreement February 20, 1917; the Italian agreement March 7, 1917.

Senator Williams. And all of that was after Japan had conquered the German possessions in Shantung.

Senator Borah. And just before Ishii came over here to get his agreement with this country.

Secretary Lansing. No; Ishii

Senator Borah. No; it was in November, 1917.

SecretaryLANSiNG. 1917.

Senator Williams. That what took place—oh, that Ishii made his agreement?

Senator Borah. Yes.

Senator Williams. I was not talking about the Ishii agreement.

Senator Johnson of California. Does the fact that is apparently established now, that these secret treaties were made before your agreement with Ishii, bring to your mind any of the particular conditions?

Secretary Lansing. No; I would have to refresh my memory on that.

Senator Johnson of California. You do not recall that you had in mind these treaties at all?

Secretary Lansing. I did not know about these treaties at that time.

Senator Johnson of California. You did not know about these treaties at the time of the Lansing-Ishii agreement, as it is called?

Secretary Lansing. No.

Senator Johnson of California. You said you did not understand the exact line of the questions that I was asking. I do not wish to be repetitive or insistent, but I ask you again, do you not remember the publication even in this country of the treaties for the disposition of territory, after the war and in the peace, of the various belligerents? i Secretary Lansing. No, sir; I confess I do not. When were they published?

Senator Johnson of California. They were published—-I got my copies in the New York Evening Post.

Secretary Lansing. At what time? f Senator Johnson of California. Oh, it was a long time ago; I can not tell you how long ago; long before the armistice, you know, during the war.

Secretary Lansing. Well, possibly that is so.

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