The PRESIDENT. Yes; he is a very able man. He was on the general drafting committee of the treaty, and Mr. Miller took the various documents that we have been reading and discussing and made a combined draft and it was that combined draft which was the subject of formal discussion and amendment and addition by the committee. Senator BRANDEGEE. And that was the combined draft, the one that you sent to us the other day?

The PRESIDENT. No; Secretary Lansing was asked for it.

The CHAIRMAN. It was a composite draft. It came in yesterday. Senator BRANDEGEE. I beg your pardon, I did not know about it. Was there any draft, no matter how incomplete, any skeleton draft or enumeration or substance for a draft for the so-called American plan for the covenant of the league of nations which you took with you from this country or was prepared over there by you! The PRESIDENT. Only the one that I referred to earlier in this conference, Senator, when I had taken the Phillimore report as more or less of a basis of my work.

Senator BRANDEGEE. That was the only thing that you had in the nature of a skeleton draft when you left the country?

The PRESIDENT. Yes.

Senator BRANDEGEE. Did the Phillimore draft or report, whatever the proper term may be, contain anything like what is now article 10 of the covenant of the league?

The PRESIDENT. I do not remember.

Senator BRANDEGEE. You do not remember whether there was anything like that in that?

The PRESIDENT. Let me say this in regard to article 10. I believe this to be a part of the history of it. It is so far as I am concerned. Early in my administration, as I think many of the members know, I tried to get the American States, the States of Central and South America, to join with us in an arrangement in which a phrase like this constituted the kernel, that we guaranteed to each other territorial integrity and political independence. "Under a republican form of government" was added in that case. But that is another matter. As I represented to them at that time, it was a desire on my part at any rate to show the way to them of keeping things steady and preventing the kind of aggression they have had.

The CHAIRMAN. That was the subject of the Niagara conference? Senator BRANDEGEE. The A. B. C. powers.

The PRESIDENT. I do not think it was discussed there, Senator. We discussed it diplomatically.

The CHAIRMAN. It was taken up at that time?

The PRESIDENT. It was taken up at that time.

Senator BRANDEGEE. Who was the author of article 10?

The PRESIDENT. I suppose I was as much as anybody.

Senator BRANDEGEE. And you recommended it to your fellow American commissioners?

The PRESIDENT. Yes.

Senator BRANDEGEE. How many Americans were on the commission which framed the covenant for the league of nations?

The PRESIDENT. Two-Col. House and myself.

Senator BRANDEGEE. The total membership was what? Fifteen. was it not?

The PRESIDENT. Fourteen nations, and five principal nations had two members, which would make 19, would it not? Yes, 19 members.

Senator BRANDEGEE. Did they have the unit rule, so to speak, casting one vote for each member?

The PRESIDENT. In only one or two instances did we vote at all. I presided and the final form was this, "If there are no objections we will regard that as accepted."

Senator BRANDEGEE. As we say in the Senate, "without objection it is agreed to."

The PRESIDENT. Yes; and that is the way the whole thing was agreed to.

Senator BRANDEGEE. Did these commissions to which the plenary conference delegated certain subjects to prepare reports upon have any coordination with each other? Did each commission know what the other commissions were doing?

The PRESIDENT. No; the subjects were too unlike.

Senator BRANDEGEE. Was there any debate on the completed draft of the covenant of the league of nations when it was submitted to the plenary council just before you came over in March? The PRESIDENT. Yes; there were speeches.

Senator BRANDEGEE. I do not call those debates. I read that there were no debates as to what each particular government demanded.

The PRESIDENT. No; because there were so many of those represented, and they had all been canvassed in the process of formulation.

Senator BRANDEGEE. You replied to a resolution of the Senate requesting a copy of a letter of Gen. Tasker H. Bliss, which was also signed by Secretary Lansing

The PRESIDENT. And Mr. White.

Senator BRANDEGEE. And Mr. White-you stated, if I recollect, in substance, that you would be glad to furnish us with a copy of it but for the fact that Gen. Bliss had mentioned the names of certain Governments and you thought it was a matter of delicacy not to make it public. Would it not be possible to furnish us with the general drift of the arguments, leaving out the names of the Governments, etc.?

The PRESIDENT. There was not any argument. He said flatly that it was unjust. It was not a reason.

Senator BRANDEGEE. It was an opinion.

The PRESIDENT. An opinion.

Senator BRANDEGEE. A conclusion.

Senator JOHNSON of California. With that, you agreed, Mr. President, did you not?

The PRESIDENT. Senator, I do not think I ought to say any more than I have said.

Senator BRANDEGEE. I do not think I care to ask anything more. Senator HITCHCOCK. Will you permit me to read into the record these two paragraphs from the conclusion of the treaty and ask whether they are what you refer to when you express the opinion that the treaty would go into effect when Germany and three of the contracting parties had signed it, and only as to them?

The CHAIRMAN. That is explicitly stated.

Senator HITCHCOCK. I thought it was left in some doubt. I would like to read them into the record [reading]:

A first procès-verbal of the deposit of ratifications will be drawn up as soon as the treaty has been ratified by Germany on the one hand, and by three of the principal allied and associated powers on the other hand.

From the date of this first procès-verbal the treaty will come into force between the high contracting parties who have ratified it. For the determination of all periods of time provided for in the present treaty this date will be the date of the coming into force of the treaty.

I just wanted to make it clear that the treaty is not in effect except as to those that have ratified it.

The PRESIDENT. I could not put my hand on it, but I was sure. Senator MCCUMBER. Mr. President, just one question on this French treaty. If we should adopt this present treaty with the league of nations and with section 10 in it, which brings all of the great nations of the league to the protection of France, if war should be made against her by Germany, what necessity is there for any other special treaty with France?"

The PRESIDENT. To meet the possibility of delay in action on the part of the council of the league.

Senator MCCUMBER. But the agreement of section 10 comes into effect, does it not, the moment we adopt the treaty?

The PRESIDENT. Yes; but the council has to act and formulate its advice, and then the several governments have to act and form their judgment upon that advice.

Senator MCCUMBER. Do you not think under the present situation that that could be done as quickly as Germany could get ready for a second war on France?

The PRESIDENT. Oh, as quickly as she could get ready, yes; but not as quickly as she could act after she got ready.

Senator BRANDEGEE. Mr. President, the situation is this: If Germany has surrendered her navy, demobilized her army, and been shorn of large portions of her territory; if we have no demand for reparation or indemnity against her; if, as you stated in your addresses to the Congress, the war is over; if there is no fighting going on; if Germany has signed the peace treaty, and you have signed the peace treaty; if, in fact, there is a condition of peace, and only the joint resolution of Congress that a state of war existed a year ago-if that is all so, is there no way by which the condition of peace which actually exists can be made legally effective except by the adoption of the proposed treaty?

The PRESIDENT. Senator, I would say that there is no way which we ought to be willing to adopt which separates us, in dealing with Germany, from those with whom we were associated during the war. Senator BRANDEGEE. Why?

The PRESIDENT. Because I think that is a moral union which we are not at liberty to break.

Senator BRANDEGEE. If we have rescued our fellow belligerents from the German peril voluntarily and without any charge, and if we prefer not to have any entanglements or connections with European powers, but to pursue our course as we did before the war. where is the moral obligation to merge ourselves with Europe forever! The PRESIDENT. I do not construe it as merging ourselves, but I do think we are under the plainest moral obligation to join with our associates in imposing certain conditions of peace on Germany.

Senator BRANDEGEE. Even if we ratify the German so-called peace treaty, with or without the Shantung provision in it, and strike out article 1 of the peace treaty, the covenant of the league of nations, we still join with those with whom we have cooperated in establishing peace with Germany, do we not, and are at liberty to trade with her?

The PRESIDENT. An unworkable peace, because the league is necessary to the working of it.

Senator BRANDEGEE. Well, suppose they have a league, and we ratify the treaty with the reservation that we are not bound by article 1, which is the covenant of the league-then they have a league of nations covenant.

The PRESIDENT. Yes, and we are tied into every other part of the treaty by reason of the fact that we are supposed to be members of the league of nations.

Senator BRANDEGEE. Suppose we also adopt the 21 amendments that Senator Fall has pending before the Committee on Foreign Relations, striking us out of these commissions to which we are tied, and just cutting the Gordian knot which ties us to the covenant: We establish peace with Germany just the same, I fancy. The other powers could accept our amendments to the treaty or not, as they chose. In either case Germany would be at peace, and they would be in the league, and we would be out of it. We could have peace, and resume all our business in relation to copper mines and zinc mines, etc., and we could export to Germany, and reestablish the consular service; could we not?

The PRESIDENT. We could, sir; but I hope the people of the United States will never consent to do it.

Senator BRANDEGEE. There is no way by which the people can vote on it.

The CHAIRMAN. Are we not trading with Germany now, as a matter of fact?

The PRESIDENT. Not so far as I know, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Licenses certainly have been issued. It is advertised in all the New York papers.

The PRESIDENT. We removed the restrictions that were formerly placed upon shipments to neutral countries which we thought were going through to Germany.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; I see them advertised broadly in the New York papers.

Senator JOHNSON of California. Mr. President, does the moral obligation to which you have alluded compel us to maintain American troops in Europe?

The PRESIDENT. Which moral obligation, Senator?

Senator JOHNSON of California. You referred to the moral obligation resting upon us to carry out the peace terms and the like in conjunction with our associates, and felt that it would be, as I understood you, a breaking, a denial of that moral obligation to make a separate peace or to act by ourselves.

The PRESIDENT. Yes.

Senator JOHNSON of California. Does that obligation go to the extent of compelling us to maintain American troops in Europe? The PRESIDENT. Such small bodies as are necessary to the carrying out of the treaty, I think; yes.

Senator JOHNSON of California. And will those troops have to be maintained under the various treaties of peace until the ultimate consummation of the terms of those treaties?

The PRESIDENT. Yes, Senator; but that is not long. In no case, as I remember, does that exceed 18 months.

Senator JOHNSON of California. I was rather under the impression that the occupation of Germany was to be for 15 years.

The PRESIDENT. Oh, I beg your pardon.

The CHAIRMAN. Along the Rhine.

The PRESIDENT. Along the Rhine; yes. I was thinking of Upper Silesia, and the other places where plebiscites are created, or to be carried out. It is the understanding with the other Governments that we are to retain only enough troops there to keep our flag there. Senator JOHNSON of California. The idea in my mind was this: Will we be maintaining American troops upon the Rhine for the next 15 years?

The PRESIDENT. That is entirely within our choice, Senator; but I suppose we will.

Senator JOHNSON of California. Do you know, Mr. President, whether or not we have American troops in Budapest at present?

The PRESIDENT. We have not. There are some American officers there, Senator, sent with a military commission, but no American troops.

Senator JOHNSON of California. Returning, if you do not mind, Mr. President, to one last question about Shantung, do you recall the American experts reporting that the Japanese promise, the verbal promise, which has been referred to, to return Shantung, meant in reality the returning of the shell but retaining the kernel of the nut? The PRESIDENT. I remember their saying that; yes, sir.

Senator JOHNSON of California. That is all.

The PRESIDENT. But I do not agree with them.

Senator NEW. Mr. President, if no one else has any questions to ask, I have a few.

The PRESIDENT. Proceed, Senator, if you will.

Senator NEW. These questions, Mr. President, are more or less general and haphazard, referring to no particular feature of the treaty, but to all of them.

First, was it the policy of the American delegates to avoid participation by the United States in strictly European questions and their settlement; and, if so, what were the matters in which America refused to participate, or endeavored to avoid participation?

The PRESIDENT. I could not give you a list in answer to the last part of your question, sir; but it certainly was our endeavor to keep free from European affairs.

Senator NEW. What did the American delegates say or do to secure nonparticipation by the United States in the cessions of Danzig, Memel, and in the various boundary commissions, reparations commissions, and other agencies set up in the treaty for the disposition of questions in which America has no national interest?

The PRESIDENT. I did not get that, Senator, it is so long.

Senator NEW. I will divide it. What did the American delegates say or do to secure nonparticipation by the United States in the cessions of Danzig and Memel ?

The PRESIDENT. Why, Senator, the process of the whole peace was this: Each nation had associated with it certain expert advisers,