the sentence which was read, and it is our interpretation and understanding that those confirmations and ratifications apply to alien enemies.

Senator JOHNSON of California. But you specifically state "the interests of all persons," and then you state again "every action taken"

Mr. PALMER. In accordance with the provisions of such and such. a clause.

Senator JOHNSON of California. That is your first sentence; quite

true.

Mr. PALMER. But it gives the entire paragraph.

Senator JOHNSON. But your subsequent sentences are wholly general in character.

The CHAIRMAN. "All persons" means only alien enemies.
Senator JOHNSON. That is exactly the point.

The CHAIRMAN. Am I not right in that?

Mr. PALMER. German nationals, it means.

The CHAIRMAN. "All persons" means German nationals. It is rather loosely drawn.

Mr. BARUCH. It could not mean anything else.

Senator JOHNSON. I would not wish to disagree with you, Mr. Palmer, concerning the construction of language with which you are familiar, but is not that a strained construction, to say the least? Mr. PALMER. It might be, without the connection.

Senator WILLIAMS. "All persons," referring to section 297.
Senator JOHNSON. It does not say so.

Senator WILLIAMS. That is what it means, explanatory of section 297. Read the first line.

Senator POMERENE. Where is that? Give me the number and the section.

Senator WILLIAMS (reading):

In accordance with the provisions of article 297.

It is on page 375.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any futher questions that the committee desires to put to Mr. Palmer?

Senator MCCUMBER. I would like to ask one question. If we are to avail ourselves of the rights and the benefits under this system of joining other nations in the collection of debts, we will have to do it by an act of Congress within 40 days after the treaty has been adopted. Is that your construction?

Senator WILLIAMS. That is, adopting the clearing-house system? Mr. PALMER. If you want to adopt the clearing-house system, it is necessary to give notice within a month, I think.

Senator HITCHCOCK. Thirty days.

Mr. Palmer. After the ratification.
Senator MCCUMBER. Who is to give notice?

Mr. PALMER. The United States.

Senator McCUMBER. How?

Mr. PALMER. Why, I do not know. I suppose the President, or the executive authority.

Senator MCCUMBER. Do you not think that it will require an act of Congress to determine whether we should come under that system, rather than the mere declaration of the President?

Mr. PALMER. I do not think so.

Senator MCCUMBER. You would not think it was simply discretionary with the President or any other officer as to whether we should adopt that provision? I just ask. I did not know but what there might be some other portion of the treaty that bore on it.

Mr. PALMER. There is nothing else in the treaty on it, but I should think that inasmuch as the President and the Senate have the power to make the treaty, they would have the power to do that.

Senator WILLIAMS. And the American delegation was opposed to the clearing-house system?

Mr. PALMER. Absolutely.

The CHAIRMAN. The hour of half past twelve having arrived, if I may interrupt Mr. Palmer for that purpose, some of the Senators have to go upon the floor and I think we shall have to take an adjournment. I suppose that there are some further questions that the members of the committee desire to ask Mr. Baruch and Mr. Palmer.

Senator FALL. I think so.

The CHAIRMAN. I understand so, and I shall be glad to know from the committee when they would like to have the witnesses before them again.

Senator JOHNSON. I request an adjournment until 10.30 o'clock to-morrow morning.

Senator HITCHCOCK. I want to suggest that the matter of interrogating witnesses be on some sort of system, either that the questions be put in writing or asked in order, so that there will be less confusion.

Senator MOSES. May I ask that before the next meeting copies of this document that Mr. Baruch has been referring to be ready and put in the hands of the committee.

Senator POMERENE. Could we have those this afternoon?

Mr. BARUCH. We have only two copies, but they could be furnished the members of the committee this afternoon.

The CHAIRMAN. If Mr. Baruch will give me a copy I will have it printed for the committee.

Senator PITTMAN. Do I understand that this document of Mr. Baruch's is to be printed as a part of his testimony?

The CHAIRMAN. There were some other things that he had in typewritten form that will go in his remarks.

Senator PITTMAN. I would like to ask Mr. Baruch if he would not like to have this document printed as a part of his testimony. Mr. BARUCH. This really was not a completed document. a transitory document, just explanatory of the clauses.

It was

The CHAIRMAN. I did not understand that Mr. Baruch wanted to make the whole document a part of his testimony, but it does not make any difference.

Senator PITTMAN. I was asking Mr. Baruch as to his desire.

Mr. BARUCH. I have no desire in the matter. I think the parts that were read should appear in the testimony. They are simply to be used as a matter of reference for the Senators in order to see what construction had been put on the clauses at that time.

The CHAIRMAN. We can have the testimony ready and in print

to-morrow.

(Thereupon, at 12.30 o'clock p. m., the committee adjourned until to-morrow, Friday, August 1, 1919, at 10.30 o'clock a. m.)

FRIDAY, AUGUST 1, 1919.

UNITED STATES SENATE,

COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN RELATIONS,

Washington, D. C.

The committee met at 10.30 o'clock a. m., pursuant to adjournment, in room 424, Senate Office Building, Senator Henry Cabot Lodge presiding.

Present: Senators Lodge (chairman), McCumber, Fall, Knox, Harding, Johnson, New, Moses, Hitchcock, Williams, Swanson, Pomerene, Smith, and Pittman.

The CHAIRMAN. The Secretary of Labor desires to address the committee briefly in regard to a resolution introduced by Senator Kenyon yesterday. If the committee desires, I will read the resolution [reading]:

[S. J. Res. 80.]

JOINT RESOLUTION To authorize the President to convene the first meeting of the international labor conference in Washington, and to appoint delegates thereto.

Whereas in the proposed treaty of peace which was executed by the representatives of the allied and associated powers and Germany at Versailles on the 28th day of June, 1919, and which is now before the Senate of the United States for consideration, provision is made for a general international labor conference for the purpose of promoting improvements in the conditions of labor, and that the first meeting of such conference shall take place in Washington in October, 1919; and Whereas the representatives of the allied and associated powers, signatory to said proposed treaty of peace, have requested the Government of the United States of America to convene and make arrangements for the organization of the first meeting of said conference: It is therefore

Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That the President of the United States be, and he hereby is, authorize to convene and to make arrangements for the organization of such first meeting of the said conference and to appoint delegates thereto: Provided, however, That nothing herein shall be held to authorize the President to appoint any delegates to represent the United States of America at the said meeting of such conference or to authorize the United States of America to participate therein unless and until the Senate shall have ratified the provisions of the said proposed treaty of peace with reference to such general international labor conference.

Senators will probably remember that we passed as an amendment to an appropriation bill a prohibition on the President to call any conventions here without action by Congress.

Senator WILLIAMS. Hence the necessity of this bill.

The CHAIRMAN. Hence the necessity of the bill. We will hear the Secretary of Labor.

31

STATEMENT OF HON. WILLIAM B. WILSON, SECRETARY OF LABOR.

Secretary WILSON. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, as stated in the preamble, the proposed treaty of peace which the committee has now under consideration provides for the calling of an international labor conference, a conference that it is proposed shall meet annually. In an annex to article 24, the place of meeting is named as Washington, and the Government of the United States is requested to convene the conference. As has been stated by the chairman, the general deficiency bill of March 4, 1913, carried this provision:

Hereafter the Executive shall not extend or accept any invitation to participate in any international congress, conference, or like event, without first having the specific authority of law to do so.

Consequently the Executive has no power to comply with the request contained in the treaty now under consideration. I am advised that 22 nations have already signified their intention of being represented at the labor conference, some of them nations on the other side of the globe. The difficulties of transportation and communication at the present time resulting from the war make it important that if an invitation is to go out from this Government it should go out at a very early date.

The House of Representatives, as I understand, is about to adjourn, with the consent of the Senate, until September 9. Unless action can be secured before the adjournment of the House, it will make a very brief time in which invitations can be extended and action taken by other Governments in selecting their representatives to attend the conference.

When I learned that the House was about to adjourn for a month, I took the matter up with Members of the House, among them the minority leader, Mr. Clark of Missouri, with a view to securing action by the House before adjournmant. After consultation with his associates, the majority leader and his associates came to the conclusion that it was a matter that primarily interested the Senate, because the matter of the treaty of peace was involved in the proposition, and that consequently it would be more or less indelicate on the part of the House to take any action on the subject until the Senate had expressed its view upon it. Consequently the House has taken no steps to take any action on the proposition that is now before you.

I look upon this particular phase of the proposed treaty as being somewhat different from any other phase of the treaty. There is not only the proposition to convene a labor conference annually, but there is a request that this Government convene the first conference. When any of the other nations, parties to the negotiations, ratify the treaty, that carries with it a ratification of the request to the Government of the United States to convene the labor conference. If we ratify the treaty itself, then it becomes a treaty obligation on our part to convene the conference. If we fail to ratify the treaty, it still stands as a request from other Governments to our Government to convene this meeting, and in that respect I look upon it as being entirely different from any of the other provisions contained within the treaty.

There is an organizing committee at present working upon the data for the subjects to be discussed at the proposed conferences. I am advised that that committee is unable to proceed further with its work, that it is at a standstill and will continue at a standstill until our Government has extended either formally or informally the invitation mentioned in the treaty. Our Government is not in a position to extend, either formally or informally, an invitation except by and with the authority of Congress.

That is the situation as it confronts us, and unless speedy action can be secured from the Senate and from the House it will create a condition where the time will be extremely brief, whether we ratify the treaty or not, in which we can issue a call for this convention.

I may add that by the very terms of the treaty we would not be entitled to representation in the conference, even though we called it, unless the treaty is ratified; but we are requested to call it whether we are represented in it or not. That is the situation as I understand it, and I hope the committee may take prompt action in the matter in order to relieve the situation.

The CHAIRMAN. I can only say that the committee will take it up just as soon as they finish this hearing. I shall try and get a meeting of the committee this afternoon to deal with it.

Secretary WILSON. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Of course, Mr. Secretary, you realize that it has to be done by unanimous consent of the Senate?

Secretary WILSON. I realize, Mr. Chairman, that unless there is practically unanimous consent both in the Senate and in the House, prompt action can not be had, and I think that prompt action is of the essence of the situation at the present moment.

Senator WILLIAMS. It can not be considered, Mr. Secretary, except by unanimous consent.

Secretary WILSON. That is practically the situation in the House also.

STATEMENT OF MR. BRADLEY W. PALMER-Resumed.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Baruch and Mr. Palmer are both here, and if any members of the committee desire to ask them any further questions, there is now an opportunity to do so.

Senator WILLIAMS. Mr. Palmer was on the stand yesterday when we adjourned.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Palmer was on the stand when we adjourned yesterday. Is it desired to ask him any further questions?

Senator MOSES. Some of us are under embarassment with reference to questioning this witness further, inasmuch as the print of the explanation which Mr. Baruch presented yesterday morning is not yet ready.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Baruch's pamphlet is not here. The Government Printing Office was unable to get it to us in time. The testimony taken at the hearing yesterday is printed.

Senator FALL. Mr. Chairman, I must admit that we went so far afield yesterday that I did not understand thoroughly the explanation made by Mr. Palmer in answer to the question propounded to him by one of the Senators touching upon the statement that he made that Americans were, as I understood him, better protected in the collection

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