display of military force made for the sole purpose of preventing a social function tendered by the chief executive of the great city of Dublin to the three gentlemen who had come there from America.

A few hours before that the bedroom of the chief lady of Ireland was desecrated by the police, seeking as they claimed, some escaped prisoners. That is the situation which we found in Ireland. Now, it is my judgment that if this treaty be confirmed by this body-and you are charged with the responsibility of approving or disregarding this treaty-if section 11 be approved you gentlemen will be acting as partners in the enforcement of that kind of law upon an unwilling people. We ask you to reject this treaty as American citizens, not because we are Irishmen, but because the Government over there as it now exists is an outrage upon constitutional government, because there is a situation to-day that rivals, if it does not exceed, the situation that prevailed years ago under the most tyrannical conditions of that time.

The CHAIRMAN. The committee will take a recess now until 2 o'clock. We will hear the Greeks from 2 to 3, and then we will resume this hearing.

(Whereupon, at 1 p. m. a recess was taken until 2 p. m.)

AFTER RECESS.

The committee reconvened pursuant to the taking of the recess, at 2 o'clock p. m., Senator Henry Cabot Lodge presiding.

The CHAIRMAN. I have here a protest against the views expressed in the morning session, signed by David W. Irvine, Henry Stewart, John Kennedy, Lieut. Lewis H. Shaw, Albert E. Kelley, William H. Cheney, and William Balfour. I told these gentlemen that we could not give them a hearing to-day, but I would give them a hearing next week. The gentleman who represented them said he desired to file this brief and have it published in our hearings. Senator KNOX. It is a brief against what?

The CHAIRMAN. It is in opposition to what has been said here this morning. It will be printed at the conclusion of this hearing.

Senator KNOX. Mr. Chairman, I see no objection to including within our hearings everything that we hear, but does the chairman think that we ought to open the door for people to file briefs!

The CHAIRMAN. That authority was given when we started the hearings that they would have a right to file briefs.

Senator KNOX. The first thing we know they will be filing books after a while. I think anyone who has anything to say ought to heard.

The CHAIRMAN. This relates to the hearing which we granted this morning. The other side has requested to be heard in this

way.

Senator KNOX. I think we ought to hear them, if they are here. The CHAIRMAN. We could not hear them to-day, and I thought it would save the time of the committee to permit them to put in a brief. We have done that on several occasions.

Senator NEW. The brief is in lieu of a hearing?

The CHAIRMAN. In lieu of a hearing; yes.

Senator KNox. I do not want to insist, but it does seem to me that if they have anything to say that is worth hearing, we would

better hear them rather than give them an indefinite right to print, because that is what it amounts to.

The CHAIRMAN. I think we can control the right to print.
Senator KNOX. Perhaps we can.

(The brief referred to will be found at the conclusion of to-day's proceedings.)

The CHAIRMAN. Judge Cohalan, I will ask you to present your next speaker.

Judge COHALAN. Gentlemen, I have the pleasure now of presenting to you Lieut. Gov. W. W. McDowell, of Montana.

STATEMENT OF HON. W. W. MCDOWELL, LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR OF MONTANA.

Mr. McDOWELL. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, when I came to Washington from Montana on yesterday morning with the seven governors who were appointed to attend the governors' conference with the President and the Attorney General, I did not know I was to have the pleasure and the honor of appearing before this committee.

I have been told by the gentlemen having this movement in charge that I am expected to speak only a few minutes, and that they would like to have me refer to the reception given to President de Valera, president of the Irish Republic, when he came to Montana recently. As my time is very limited, I will devote it to that angle of the matter, as tending to show the sentiment of the people on the question now being considered by this committee.

I will state that as lieutenant governor of Montana my duty is to preside over the State senate, and as such presiding officer I am familiar with the action taken by the legislature in its last regular session held in January and February of this year, and also the action taken at the special session held a few weeks ago.

At the regular session of the legislature last winter a resolution was unanimously adopted, there being no dissenting vote in either the senate or the house, asking the Senate and House of Representatives of the Congress of the United States to use their best_endeavors to bring about the recognition of the independence of Ireland.

Before the special session of the Legislature of Montana met, President de Valera, of the Irish republic, came to Montana. I live in Butte, and as I was then acting governor it became my pleasure to welcome President de Valera to Montana and to extend to him the freedom of the State. The reception which he received there was the most enthusiastic and the most spontaneous reception that I have ever seen since I have lived in Montana during the past 24 years. Our little town has a population of only about 65,000 people, but there were at least 10.000 people at the depot to greet President de Valera. when he got off the train. It was almost impossible for him to get through the crowd to get into the automobile which was waiting for him to go uptown. I had the pleasure and the honor of riding uptown with the president, and I noticed that there were more returned soldiers in uniform escorting that automobile uptown than I have ever seen in uniform in Butte before or since the war started. 135546-1955

I saw a great many horny-handed sons of toil break through the line and rush up to the automobile to shake hands with the president of the Irish republic, and there were tears in their eyes. The procession that came up from the depot with him was at least a mile and a half long. Every musical organization that we could get together in the State was there, and the sentiment of the people of Butte and the people of Montana is undoubtedly very strong in favor of Irish independence.

At the special session of the legislature the matter of again passing a resolution came up a few weeks ago. This was after President de Valera had been invited by me as the president of the senate to make an address to a joint session of the legislature. He stayed over several days so as to make this address. Some little opposition developed among some people in the legislature against inviting him. However, he was unanimously invited to address the legislature, which he did. He was then introduced to the crowd that could not get into the legislative hall, waiting in front of the capitol, and he received the same kind of an ovation in Helena at two or three meetings that he had received in Butte.

Another resolution was introduced in the special session of the legislature asking the Senate of the United States and Congress to do what they could to bring about recognition of the Irish republic, and this matter was fought out on its merits, and finally passed both the house and the senate by a good majority. I mention this to show that, in my opinion, three-fourths of the people of Montana and of the States around Montana are thoroughly and heartily in sympathy with the movement for the freedom of Ireland.

Senator KNOX. May I ask you a question right here? It was represented to us this morning that the fate of the Irish republic depends upon whether or not we reject this proposed league of nations. Now, you say the sentiment in Montana is in favor of an Irish republic. How is the sentiment there on the question of the league of nations?

Mr. MCDOWELL. I believe the opinion in Montana and in the surrounding States is one of decided opposition to any clause in any treaty or in any league of nations that will in any way stand in the way of Ireland securing her freedom.

Senator KNOx. Then if Mr. Walsh is correct in his statement this morning that to adopt this league at all would defeat the Irish republic, your judgment is that the sentiment of the people of Montana would be against the whole league?

Mr. MCDOWELL. I think I have expressed the opinion which I wish to express in what I said before.

Senator KNOX. All right, I will not press you further.

Senator FALL. Would you object to answering this question: Is it the opinion there that any article in this proposed league would possibly affect the freedom of Ireland?

Mr. MCDOWELL. I think that among practically all of the Irish in Montana they feel that it would. There are a great many other people in Montana and in the adjoining States who are not of Irish blood, who, I think, are in hearty sympathy with the aspirations of Ireland, and would be opposed to any clause in any treaty that would stand in the way of Irish freedom.

Senator JOHNSON of California. One further question: Do you think guaranteeing the boundaries of the British Empire will affect the question concerning which you are speaking here and the question that we have before us to-day?

Mr. MCDOWELL. Senator, I have answered that question as far as I am prepared to answer it.

Senator JOHNSON of California. I wanted to be perfectly fair on the proposition and perfectly fair as to the position that you gentlemen take in respect to this matter.

Mr. MCDOWELL. I am approaching this matter from a somewhat different angle from that of a great many of the gentlemen who have spoken here this morning so eloquently on this matter. I am a Protestant. My ancestors came to this country 250 years ago, and I am thoroughly and heartily in favor of Irish freedom and in helping them to obtain it. I think the great majority of the people of Montana and the surrounding States feel the same way about it regardless of whether they have any Irish blood or not, and they would be opposed to any clause in any treaty that would stand in the way of Ireland securing that independence.

Judge COHALAN. I wish next to present Mr. John A. Murphy, of Buffalo, N. Y., the fourth member of the American Commission on Irish Independence, who has recently come back from Paris.

STATEMENT OF MR. JOHN ARCHDEACON MURPHY.

Mr. MURPHY. Mr. Chairman and Senators, in accordance with the request of the committee having in charge the American Commission on Irish Independence, I left on the 21st of June and reached Paris on the 30th of June. During the week while I was sailing the peace treaty had been signed and the President and the presidential party had returned to America. The colleagues with whom I expected to fall in in the carrying on of the work, Messrs. Walsh and Dunne, had also returned from Paris, and I did not meet them in France.

It is needless to say that for a while the situation in France, as a stranger might sense it, was one of relaxation after the strain of the peace conference. It was one of an intense amount of gossip and whispers and reactions from the results of the peace conference.

During the most of the time I was there I was busily engaged in presenting the case of Ireland to the editors of the French papers and in endeavoring to obtain a presentation of it before Mr. Clemenceau, to whom it was stated the question of Ireland was referred in his capacity as president of the peace conference.

After being in Paris for about two or three weeks I became advised that before the President and Mr. Lansing left France they had been informed by Mr. Clemenceau in his capacity as president of the peace conference that no action would be taken upon the question of Ireland. That was material news and in my judgment it foreclosed any possibility that Ireland may have or might expect to have of prosecuting her cause before the league of nations.

On June 22 I wrote a letter in the name of the American Commission on Irish Independence to Mr. Clemenceau, and if you will permit me I will read the letter, or if you desire I will insert it in the record. It is on page 65 of the brown pamphlet.

The CHAIRMAN. The letter will be inserted in the record.
The letter is as follows:

[Personal and urgent.]

M. GEORGES CLEMENCEAU,

AMERICAN COMMISSION ON IRISH INDEPENDENCE,

Paris, July 22, 1919.

President of the Peace Conference and Premier of France, Paris. Monsier le PRESIDENT: We are in receipt of information from sources of high authorities that, as president of the peace conference, you have notified American peace plenipotentiaries that, so far as further consideration of the Irish question is concerned, the matter is one in which you will take no action. We understand this decision covers:

1. That the resolution of the American Senate, officially forwarded to you by the American Commission to Negotiate Peace, and the recommendations contained therein expressing sympathetic support to the people of Ireland in their efforts to obtain a government of their own choice, is, by this action, denied in a manner suggestive of your entire disregard of American public opinion as rendered in the deliberate resolution of our highest legislative body.

2. That the peace conference further ignores the request of the Hon. Messrs. Walsh and Dunne for the appointment of an international tribunal to investigate into the charges of barbarities and inhuman conduct, in violation of the rules of civilized warfare, perpetrated by the British Government through its military forces in occupation of Ireland, and upon its defenseless people.

The knowledge of your decision in these matters has been up to now withheld from the American public. The results of the publication of this information will doubtless have very material weight at this time while the attention of the United States Senate is occupied in matters of international importance, in which we feel France has a material interest. Arrangements have already been made for giving widespread publicity in America to this decision on your part. But before taking this step, we respectfully suggest that an audience may be granted by you to the undersigned to present the importance of the situation, particularly in its relation to the future interests of France, of America, and of Great Britain.

There are 20,000,000 citizens of Irish blood in the United States, and the effect of this information when published there needs no characterization by us to indicate how grave may be the danger to the continuance of those same relations of amity and esteem that have marked the friendships existing between the French, American, and Irish peoples.

Trusting that I may be accorded the honor of this audience with you at your earliest possible convenience, and with assurances of high esteem and respect, we have the honor to remain,

Sincerely, yours,

AMERICAN COMMISSION ON IRISH INDEPENDENCE, JOHN ARCHDEACON MURPHY, Commissioner in Charge. Mr. MURPHY. I was aware that the information I had received had not been made public in America, and that it was held under the the veil of secrecy from publication by request of the American representatives. After the letter was delivered to Mr. Clemenceau, the information was conveyed back to me in circuitous fashion that if I were to make public the information that I had outlined in that letter to Mr. Clemenceau it would not be wise or judicious, while I was a guest in Paris. Therefore I refrained from making it public until I returned to America; but it was known, not in one circle but in many, that there was an effort made to conceal from the American people and from the American Senate this action on the part of Clemenceau until they had, as it was hoped, passed favorably upon and ratified the league of nations.

Senator BRANDEGEE. You speak of this information as having been conveyed to you circuitously. Do you know from whom it originated?