man who might make a hobby of the Irish sys-kuow that behind the captain who commands the tem, and ride it through all these institutions, to ship stands the company of owners, or the directAnd we know that behind the the disparagement and neglect of a system which ors of the company, to direct all her voyages and might be a vast improvement upon it. But all her ventures. that the gentleman has said on that point, his superintendent who runs the factory, stands the whole argument, has made for the plan of board of directors of the company who own the organization which I have submitted. What I factory. I ask, who ever heard of a single man want, as I said in my opening upon that question, put over the captain of a ship, a single man put is a body of men of so much wisdom, so much over the superintendent of a factory, or a single experience, so much ability, that they can devise man put over the general of an army? That, as and institute the best system, whatever it is; I attempted to show in the outset of the discusof discrimination sufficient to select from all the sion, is the weakness of the gentleman's plau, systems which are before the world the best sys- and there is no parallel for it. If these prisons tem, or to select the best features of the best constituted, in any sense, a unity, as an army is systems, and to make a new one, if possible, composed of its parts as one whole, there would which shall be better than any now existing. be some force in it; but there is no such connecOne man cannot override the counsels of such tion. They are totally distinct and separate, and a body with a hobby. I go quite as far as the at the head of each of them both of our plans gentleman goes in advocacy of a single individual would place a warden, who should be made the responsibility in the management of these prisons. one sole responsible head of that institution. But where will you have that responsibility? I There is a good deal of force in the comparison insist that the only place to have it is in the of a prison to a factory, for a prison is a factory. warden, at the head of each of these institutions. How is it to-day? Any man who lives near a State prison, or has had any experience or opportunity of observing them-I ask him where the responsibility is now placed. With the very imperfect authority lodged at present in the hands of the warden, the management of each prison is yet in his hands, and rightly so. To-day the inspectors appoint every officer of the prison, from the warden down to the guard that tends the gate; and the warden has no power to remove these officers, even for the grossest misconduct; and yet we now hold the warden responsible for the management of the prison. So it must always be, either under the system proposed by myself, or under that reported by the gentleman from Columbia [Mr. Gould]. We both give the warden the appointment of his subordinate officers, and the removal of any and every one of them at his pleasure. Can there be any question, then, that it will be the warden of the prison that will be held responsible for its management? Can there be any question that the warden ought to be held observed that responsible for its management? the argument of the gentleman for a single individual responsibility had its effect upon the comI desire it mittee. I desire that it should. should have the utmost effect; for that argument is in favor of the system I propose. As I said in the opening of this discussion, there is no such thing as a system of prisons in the State of New York. Each of these prisons is as separate, individual, distinct and independent of all the rest as one of the colleges of the State is distinct from every other similar institution in the State; and I would as soon think of putting one man as President over all the colleges of the State as to put one man in control of all the prisons of the State. The gentleman asks, who ever heard of an army, or a factory, or a ship, put in charge of a board? I accept the gentleman's comparison. We never did hear of an army put in charge of a board; but we do know that behind the general who commands the army stands the President of the United States, the commander-in-chief, with his board of counselors, his cabinet, to control and direct the operations of the general. We do

It is more than that-it is a collection of factories,
The prison at Auburn consists of six or eight
large manufacturing establishments, each of them
employing from fifty to a hundred and fifty
stalwart mechanics in various branches of me-
chanical industry, and they constitute a collec-
tion of manufacturing establishments. At the
head of each is the keeper, who controls the dis-
cipline of the shop; in each is a foreman who
directs the mechanical operations of the men;
and over the whole of these factories, thus 'asso-
ciated together, we place the warden, who per
sonally superintends and governs the whole. But
the prison is not merely a collection of factories:
it is a community of a thousand to sixteen hun-
dred human beings, with interests and needs
physical, mental and moral, of great and press-
ing importance. I say that behind and over the
warden, who governs that community, who is
absolute in his sphere as the head of that institu-
tion, I would have a body of men who possess
wisdom, intelligence, experience and philanthropy
enough to know whether he discharges his duties
as he ought to do. The gentleman says he would
have an undivided responsibility; that he would
make the superintendent responsible. I ask the
gentleman, responsible to whom?

Mr. GOULD The Governor and the Legislature.
Mr. C. C. DWIGHT-The Governor and the
Legislature have no knowledge on the subject of
the management of the prisons. The matter of
prison management is a science, distinct from the
duties of the Governor and the Legislature, and
no man knows this better than the gentleman
himself. The Governor and the Legislature have
no experience in the management of prisons. All
that the Governor and the Legislature can do is
what the people can do-look at the balance-
sheet and see whether there is a balance on the
side of profit or of loss; and that is the least of
all the considerations which relate to this great
subject of prison discipline and management.
say that there should be an undivided, sole re-
sponsibility at the head of each of these prisons;
and then I would create this body of men of in-
telligence and experience, who should be com
petent to exact a just responsibility from that

I

head. I would make them a body who could human mind-problems which will never reach a judge whether that head discharged his duty. I full solution so long as crime continues and efforts would make them a body to whom this head continue for the restraint of crime and the reforshould be responsible. The gentleman says he mation of the criminal. The solution of these agrees with me in placing the Albany peniten- great problems will be committed to the central tiary at the head of all the institutions of this supervisory authority which we now propose to character in the country, and as a great example organize. To it must be committed the duty of of efficient, wise and successful management. I devising the system of management and discipline ask him, to what is this efficiency of the manage- to be enforced in our prisons, of advising such ment of the Albany penitentiary due? It is due modifications in that system as may, from time to to the efficiency, the wisdom, the experience, the time, be shown to be necessary; of supervising character of Amos Pillsbury, who stands at its the enforcement of that system, and of holding to head. Is Amos Pillsbury directed by any one a strict responsibility all the officers who have to do man who corresponds to the superintendent of with its administration. I ask whether there is any prisons proposed by the gentleman? No, sir; parallel or example for intrusting such duties, behind Amos Pillsbury stands a large board of powers and responsibilities to a single individual? officials of Albany county, who are capable of No, Mr. Chairman, in conclusion, I insist that judging, from their experience and observation if we would have the best system of prison of this prison, whether Amos Pillsbury main- discipline and management devised and estab tains the high character ho long ago ac- lished, whether it be the Irish system or a betquired as a prison officer. And if he should ter; if we would have the wisest and best sefail, from old age or from any other cause, lection of officers to administer that system when and become incapable of longer discharging the established; and if we would have those officers duties of that position, that board is capable of constantly held to a strict responsibilty for the discovering the fact and of removing him, and of most thorough and efficient administration of selecting another raan to be put in his place. that system, and the most faithful discharge The gentleman from Columbia [Mr. Gould], in an- of their duties under it, then, sir, we must swer to a question put to him by the gentieman have in the composition of our central authority from Jefferson [Mr. Bell], informed the committee something more of wisdom, of judgment and of that it was the intention of the plan proposed by experience than can be looked for in any single him to lay the foundation for the introduction of man. the Irish system of prison discipline and manage- Mr. AXTELL-I move that the Convention ment. I should like to hear the gentleman ex-rise, report progress, and ask leave to sit again; plain how the system of organization proposed by and on that motion I ask for a count. him was either caiculated or likely to introduce the Irish system of management. I think that I have shown that it is wise to intrust this matter, for the purpose of obtaining the Irish system, or to obtain a better system if a better system cau be found, to a body of men who shall have more of wisdom and more of experience than can be found in any one man in the world. But the gentleman also said, in answer to the same question, that the introduction of the Irish system must be the result of legislation. If it is to be the result of legislation, will one man, placed over these institutions, be more likely to obtain such beneficent legislation than a body of able, distinguished, enlightened and experienced men? Will any one man that can be named by the gentleman be likely to have that weight with the Legislature to influence them to introduce such a system, which the body of councillors I propose would have? But the gentleman cites the action of this Convention in establishing a single superintendent of the canals as a precedent for our action here. Sir, if the prisons of this State were merely parts of a whole, as the Erie canal, and each of its lateral branches, are parts of one system of navigation, or if all the results of the management of prisons were shown on the balance-sheet of pecuniary profit and loss to the people of the State, then I would Mr. S. TOWNSEND, from the Committee of the grant that there might be force in the precedent Whole, reported that the committee had had uncited by the gentleman. But, sir, I think I have der consideration the report of the Committee on shown that such is not the case. The results in State Prisons, their care and management, and the case of our prisons cannot be exhibited by had made some progress therein; but finding, figures. Their management involves some of the on division, that no quorum was present, had most important and the most difficult of the moral instructed their chairman to report that fact to problems which are anywhere presented to the 'the Convention.

The question being put on the motion of Mr. Axtell, was declared, by the Chair, to be evidently lost.

I

Mr. AXTELL-I ask for a count.

The CHAIRMAN-The question is decided. Mr. AXTELL-I raise the point of order: and appeal from the decision of the Chair.

The CHAIRMAN-The Chair decided that an insufficient number rose, four or five only rising; and that it was evidently not carried. The gentleman asks for a count, and appeals from the decision of the Chair. The question is-shall the decision of the Chair stand as the judgment of the committee?

The question being put upon sustaining the decision of the Chair, it was declared carried, by a vote of 26 to 4.

Mr. AXTELL-There is no quorum voting. The CHAIRMAN-Does the gentleman raise that question?

Mr. AXTELL-I do.

The CHAIRMAN-Has he any proposition to make?

Mr. AXTELL-There is no quorum voting. The committee must rise.

Whereupon the committee rose, and the PRESIDENT resumed the chair in Convention.

Mr. RUMSEY-It is evident, then, there is not a quorum; and if that point is insisted upon, we might as well adjourn now as at any time. I make that motion.

Mr. ALVORD-I hope the gentleman 'will withdraw that motion. I ask the unanimous consent of the Convention to go into Committee of the Whole on the Preamble and Bill of Rights. SEVERAL DELEGATES objected. The question was put on the motion to adjourn, and it was declared carried.

So the Convention adjourned.

MONDAY, February 3, 1868. The Convention met pursuant to adjournment. No clergyman present.

computation of the time necessary to pass from
one of these prisons to the other will show that
simple matter of travel, over one-third of the
he must use up, in the course of a year, in the
He cannot
year, giving to him two-thirds of the year for the
purpose of visiting prisons in person.
devote that time and attention to the necessities
care of and oversee the management and control
and wants of these different institutions, to take
him to do so, taking out the time necessary for
of them in the limited time which will be given
his travel, without the consumption of the whole
fifty-two weeks in the year, and then at very
great expense to him, both mentally and physi
any human being to undergo the immense
cally. I doubt whether it is a possible thing for

The Journal of Saturday was read by the SEC-amount of labor necessary to be devoted to an
RETARY, and approved.

The Convention again resolved itself into Committee of the Whole on the report of the Committee on State Prisons and the Prevention and Punishment of Crime; Mr. S. TOWNSEND, of Queens, in the chair.

The CHAIRMAN announced the pending question to be on the proposition of Mr. C. C. Dwight, to substitute the first and second sections of the minority report, in place of the first section of the majority report.

Mr. C. C. DWIGHT-I desire to ask leave to modify my amendment so as to provide for the substitution of section 3, as well as the first and second sections of the minority report. That is necessary in order to complete the organization of the board which my report contemplates.

institution of this kind, scattered as its branches are all over this great State. That is one reason, sir, why I am opposed to this idea of having a general superintendent. Again, sir, I am in favor [Mr. C. C. Dwight], because of the fact that after of the proposition of the gentleman from Cayuga one general system or idea in reference to the management of prisons shall have been established by the board, then they can provide for portion of their committee, if it be necessary for immediate actual visitation. They can have a that purpose, visiting these different institutions at the same time, and coming together and comparing notes in reference to the results of their observations. They can do it more effectually, do it more understandingly, because they will for they will have more time to do it. They can I have workings of the institutions. For that reason I beMr. ALVORD-Mr. Chairman, I have but a have devoted more attention to the secret, inner very few words to say upon this matter. paid very particular attention to the remarks lieve that, so far as regards the system of a board I have looked for a long made by the gentleman from Columbia [Mr. of managers as compared with the system proGould], the chairman of this committee, and also posed by the gentleman from Columbia [Mr. Gould], to those made by the gentleman from Cayuga it is the preferable one. [Mr. C. C. Dwight]. The difficulties in the propo- time upon this question of prisons to see where sition of the gentleman from Columbia seem to the mistake was in their management, and I am me to be perfectly apparent to every one on the convinced, and more than convinced, by the refloor of this Convention. There are now three marks of the gentleman from Columbia, coupled State prisons in this State, two of them almost as with my own observations in regard to this matIt is an impossibility, sir, for the State to far remote as they can be, each from the other, ter, that the great fault lies in the contract sysgeographically, and the other diverging from the tem. two others in the center of the State. The gen- carry on these works while contractors take the tleman from Columbia states, and unquestionably labor of a portion of the convicts with that labor he is right in that matter, that it is better for the necessarily done within the limits of the prisons. purposes of discipline and punishment, that these It is an impossibility for any sort of discipline to institutions should not contain as many persons be maintained in any such state of things. In the as, under the necessities of the case, they have first place, the contractor must necessarily have to contain now. It involves, therefore, the prob- access to the prisons at all times for the purpose ability-almost the certainty-that other insti- of seeing to his own interests in the disposal of tutions of a like kind will be located in other this labor. He must necessarily have more or parts of the State, very soon in the future. That less of those outside of the prison engaged in being the case, judging from the present number bringing the raw material into the prison to be of prisoners incarcerated in State prisons, manufactured, and carrying out the manufactured such prisons must necessarily be increased at material. There are but very few branches of least to double the present number, if not manufacture in our State prisons but what are more, within a very few coming years. Now, divided into classes, and the result of that is they I understand the proposition of the gentle- must have skilled and expert foremen to stand man from Columbia to be to have a general over, watch and govern the various methods of superintendent, who is under the necessity of vis-producing the manufactured article. These men iting each and every one of these prisons, and cannot be selected from the convicts, they must must, of necessity, be constantly in attendance be selected from outside parties. Taking these As he goes from the one to the things altogether, you have in the contractors upon them. other, he loses the time necessary in travel. A themselves and their foremen an army of men,

stances. I trust, therefore, that when we shall come to vote on this matter, we shall vote in favor of the proposition of the gentleman from Cayuga [Mr. C. C. Dwight], which, I think, remedies to a large extent this evil. But after that proposition shall be voted for I trust there will be an amendment offered by means of which this board will be entitled to compensation, because I hold that it is an impossibility for any five men to whom shall be delegated this power of supervision over the prison institutions of the State, to perform that duty without they work every one of the working days of the year. They have not only got to work with their hands, but they have got to give themselves up to travel from one end of the State to the other. And I believe there is no man who can select five men in this State, however rich they may be, however anxious and desirous they may be, with all their benevolence, to do good to their fellow men, who

vote

semi-officials, officials only so far as regards the or organization of prisons under such circumdesire to further the contractor's interest, and who have no sort of interest whatever in the discipline, management or control of the prisoners. And, under various notions and ideas of furthering the interests of the contractors and their own interests, these men must of necessity relax (so far as is given to them the power to exert) the discipline of the prison, relax it for the purpose of getting more work, relax it for ten thousand different reasons which might be given. The result is a demoralization, an absolute demoralization, of the government of State prisons. Sir, it would seem to me that one of the great reforms needed would be to say distinctly and absolutely, that this system of undertaking to work our State prisons by contracts should be abolished, and abolished forever. But it looks to me as if that was a question for the Legislature, and not for the Convention. I would be satisfied, inasmuch as it is the opinion of very many gentlemen who have examined critically can possibly afford, or who will afford, to give the and carefully into this matter, that the present whole of their time, away from their families, system, by means of which we elect inspectors away from any business which may be personal once in three years, operates in the direction of to them, and devote the whole of it to this busicontrolling the prisons for political purposes, ness. making them, to a certain extent, a sort of this matter at this time to show that while I deI only made the remarks in reference to political machine, that we should endeavor, in sire to go for the idea put forth by the proposiour fundamental law, to change that system, if tion of the gentleman from Cayuga [Mr. C. C. possible, in the right direction, and divest it, as Dwight], there are some details of that in refermuch as possible, from immediate responsibility ence to a political party. And when we shall have nobody else does, to which I shall take rcccasion, if done that-leave to the judgment of those who I trust, therefore, we shall come to a shall have control of it, and to their skill and on to offer amendments. notions in regard to the matter, to recommend to voted on the distinct proposition. we shall go on this subject, and when we shall have the Legislature of the State, the manner in which and perfect the remainder of the section and prisons should be conducted-then we shall have article, looking to this idea simply that we shall done our full work. Now, sir, it is true-I know establish a head of these institutions in the funit of my own knowledge-that, under the pres-damental law. And after we shall have so done, ent system of appointing our inspectors, some- we will leave the balance as it was left in the times they happen to belong to one political party, past-in the present Constitution-to the Legisand very often it is the case that one belongs to lature so far as regards that matter, except as to one political party and two to another political such changes as may seem just and proper from party. They have individually a temporary ab- time to time. solute control. During a portion of the year, each individual having charge of a single prison has Saturday I did not intend to occupy any conMr. AXTELL-When this discussion began on absolute control over that prison, so far as re-siderable time in discussing it. gards the officials, and every thing else connected course of the discussion on Saturday and from with it. For instance, two republicans have a the aspect of the subject presented then, and from But from the majority, or two democrats get together at the the manner in which it seemed to be the dispotime of their annual meeting, and they appoint sition of some persons on this floor to treat the their different officers to the different prisons; subject, I have been led to put some thoughts they select the time in which each shall have together which I wish to present for the conthree months supervision of each separate pris- sideration of this committee. It is my purpose to on-there being three. on their way home, has hardly left their feet, be- submitted by the majority of the committee. The dust, sir, collected offer some observations in support of the article fore the man who is opposite to them politically, That article lays the foundation of a reform in is placed over the prison at Auburn, or our prison system-a reform the necessity of Sing Sing, and the first thing he does is to turn which is conceded by all who have given sufficient out, for three months at least, every one of the attention to the subject to be able to come to inofficials who are appointed by the majority of the telligent conclusions upon it. The problem of board. What is the result? The result is that crime and the true mode of dealing with it, is one when there is this diversity of political opinion in which must engage the attention of the statesthe board, just as sure as the temporary super- man visory power is given to an individual as against reach the true solution of this problem, will and philanthropist, and he who shall the two others, over any one of the single prisons entitle himself to the gratitude of the State, of the State, so sure will there be a change of the and the benedictions of all the people. If officers of that prison. keep up any thing like any system of discipline in this great and growing commonwealth, by It is an impossibility to this Convention shall inaugurate a system

which crime shall be repressed or greatly diminish- tive causes of crime are forced into a hotbed fered, and criminals restored to society truly reformed, tility and productiveness by crowded populations; But then its work will not be in vain, though it were to as grog shops, theaters, brothels, gambling houses, accomplish no other reform. It may extort praise the circulation of bad books, etc., etc. even from the brainless wits whose gibes have what is the testimony of facts on this point? The rained upon us without cessation since our assem- criminal statistics of the State of New York show bling in June last, and it will have contributed that crime follows compactness of population with not only to the advancement of the State, but to almost mathematical precision, so that a statethe prosperity of the whole nation. And this ment of the ratio of crime in any two groups of problem of the true mode of dealing with crime counties will be, at the same time, a statement of demands peculiar attention from this Convention the ratio of the density of population in the same and from all who occnpy positions of power or in-groups. In 1850 there were fifty-nine counties Allegany stood midway as refluence, or who are interested in the honor and in the State. well being of this empire State. I have listened spected the relative amount of crime committed in with rapt attention to the glowing delineations it; there being twenty-nine counties more crimiwhich have been given on this floor of the great-nal than it, and twenty-nine less criminal. In ness and power of this State, of its public works, the twenty-nine counties above it in criminality, of its educational institutions, of its vast re- there were ten and seven-tenths acres to each insources, and I have felt proud of my native State habitant; in the twenty-nine below it there were -proud as I used to feel when I beheld the long sixteen and one-half acres to each inhabitant; lines or steady and magnificent columns of her in the ten least guilty there were twenty-four. sons, moving bravely to the work of upholding In the second ten most guilty counties the averthe honor and integrity of the nation; but sir, age number of acres to each inhabitant was eight the very greatness of our State, the vastness of and seven-tenths; in the second ten least guilty our commercial operations, and the increase of ones, it was fifteen. The average per cent of conour population, give to this question of crime and victions in the ten worst counties was seventywhat to do with it, a mightier interest and an thousandths; in the ten best, eighteen-thousandths. The extent of It is surprising to see how exactly the ratio of ever increasing magnitude. crime is truly appalling. This State, from its crime corresponds with the ratio of density of Thus: 6: 24:: .018: .072, which position, is not only the gateway, but the great population. highway of the continent. Through it run the only varies two-thousandths from the actual perNow, centage as exhibited in the criminal records of the great highways of travel and of trade. there is no doubt that contiguity to the great State. So exact, then, in the State of New York, highways of trade and travel tends to produce is the relation between density of population and crime-that is, that it will always be found that crime, that if the density of the population and the proportion of crime is always greater in the the percentage of crime be given in one district, vicinity of these great thoroughfares than in the and the density of population Our population, too, is another, we can at once, and more secluded localities. increasing, and the relative increase is greater in than mathematical certainty, the cities and villages than in the rural portions centage of crime in the latter. of this State, and this increase is marked by a able result is exhibited in the greater relative increase of crime. As the popu- of England and Wales." lation continues to aggregate and increase at the great centers, so will the ratio of crime continue to increase, and in view of this fact is not the prospect before us-I will not say alarming, but such as should inspire in us a brave and manly determination to grapple with this question, and set in operation those forces and agencies which and evil which is before us. shall restrain vice and crime, and cause order and virtue to be masterful and triumphant. To show that I am correct in the statement that the ratio of crime is in proportion to the density of population, I will read a passage from the nineteenth annual report of the prison association, page 413, of whose work the members of this committee are cognizant.

only be given in with scarcely less calculate the perThe same remarkcriminal statistics

Now, it will be observed that this was not put forth for political effect, but is a sober statement of fact by intelligent gentlemen who are in possession of the data, upon which the statement is based, and we do well to heed it, What should be and gird ourselves for the battle with crime

the prison system? What plan will contribute to the accomplishment of the great ends for which we establish prisons? In answering this question, we must be guided by the lights of experience and observation. I will quote, as being a comprehensive view of what a prison system should be, the answer given by Mr. Sanborn, secretary of the board of charities of Massachusetts to an interrogation of the prison association. I read from the "twenty-second report of the prisDENSITY OF POPULATION A SOURCE OF CRIME. A certain on association," page 361. The question was ask"This might be argued a priori. amount of separation, seclusion and quietude ed him, "What would be your ideal of a prison seems to be essential to a healthful development system for one of the States of the Union?" He of the moral faculties. There is a tendency to contamination and degeneracy in the crowding of men together; but the tendency of crowding, in itself considered, to produce crime, is doubtless much less influential than the opportunity it affords for the action of other causes. Indeed, nothing can be clearer than that all the more ac402

answers:

66

"My ideal of a prison system would require several distinct things, of which I will speak separately. These are: First, A gradation of prisons; second, a classification of prisoners; third, a careful selection of officers; fourth, a proper construction and location; fifth, the