which he had dwelt upon things trifling and unimportant. The right hon. gent. had set out with a discussion of the particular benefits of the British constitution, which he contrasted with the practice of despotic governments. But his right hon. friend had pushed this contrast to a greater extent than any writer or speaker with whom he was acquainted. His right hon. friend had said, that his majesty's ministers were preserving the gloom of despotism upon every transaction, upon which they did not, shortly after the transaction took place, or whilst the consequences were yet flowing from it, give the fullest information to the house, and through that house to the public, and through the public to the enemy, by which the enemy might be enabled to defeat the objects of them. He had always thought that the constitution had solved that problem which his right hon. friend seemed to think insoluble, by enabling that house to steer between difficulties, and by uniting the promptness of the executive with the salutary corrective of its popular branch. But the extremity to which his right hon. friend had pushed his proposition was not to be maintained in argument or in fact, and the former of his motions allowed the principle which the whole tenor of his speech went to invalidate. His right hon. friend had complained of the sparingnessing that tone, was not acquainted with the with which his majesty's ministers granted transactions at Copenhagen? If he did, he papers; but he was sure his right hon. was mistaken; because these transactions friend must be convinced that papers had had been known at St. Petersburg either been laid upon the table this session in on, or shortly after, the 20th of August. greater masses than upon any former oc- If that were so, he would ask his right hon. casion. It began to be the feeling of the friend whether, under such circumstances, house, that he and his colleagues had he would not think it proper to take adgranted too many papers, and that the vantage of such a disposition, in order, if few which remained in the public offices possible, to preserve the relations of amity should be retained there, if not for the and alliance which had previously subsistguidance of future ministers, at least for ed between the two countries? The note the service of future oppositions. His demanding an explanation of the attack right hon. friend had asserted, that because upon Copenhagen, had been communicated only extracts had been laid before the under the influence of a power which had house, they were not entitled to credit; since acquired and exerted an ascendancy and that the remainder of the documents, in the Russian councils. Though the disif produced, would contradict the tenor of patches communicating this note had been the parts given to the public; as well as received with the other, they did not seem that, because chasms existed in the chain to his majesty's ministers sufficient to alter of papers, those which were forthcoming the view which they had of turning to adwere not to be credited. The instance vantage, if possible, the friendly disposiwhich his right hon. friend had selected to tion which had appeared on the part of prove a deception in the case of the three Russia. If this had been the use which dispatches from lord G. L. Gower, and his right hon. friend made of the papers upon which he dwelt with so much ear-produced at the desire of his own friend, nestness, as if they might have been writ- what credit would he have given to the ten at intervals of some weeks, was rather dispatches if they had been voluntarily an unfortunate one for his argument; because he had antecedently proved in his speech that they must all have been written between the 30th of August and the 2d of Sept. The clerical error of the copying clerk, in dating one of these dispatches the 2d instead of the 1st of Sept. was the ground upon which the right hon. gent. built his argument, to prove the deception which he imputed to his majesty's ministers. But, in contending that these dispatches were framed with a view to justify his majesty's Declaration of Dec. 19, which was issued in answer to the emperor of Russia's Declaration of Oct.26th which had been received in this country on the 3d of Dec.his right hon. friend gave credit to him and his colleagues for a portion of political sagacity which he was not, on other occasions, disposed to allow them. But as the observation had been applied not only to the dispatches from lord G. L. Gower, but to his answer to these dispatches, dated Sept. 17th, his right hon. friend cut him short a fortnight of the allowance of political sagacity. The view which his rt. hon. friend had taken of the statement in lord G.L. Gower's dispatch, relative to the amicable tone assumed by gen. Budberg, was not maintainable in argument, or by the fact. Did his right hon. friend mean to say that general Budberg, at the time of adopt laid upon the table by his majesty's ministers? Would he not have said, that ministers had produced them in order to make out their own case? But he should not then enter into the general question, until it should be regularly brought before the house, by the motion of the learned gent. on Wednesday. If his right hon. friend was prepared to contend that the question ought to be answered because it was put; or that, according to the daily practice of that house, it ought to be answered without any reference whatever to any particular course to be grounded upon it; he was of opinion that it would require somewhat more than the ingenuity of his right hon. friend to establish that point. If he understood his right hon. friend right, he had adverted to certain misconstructions which had been put upon what had fallen from him on a former occasion, as if he had made statements from documents in order to misrepresent the general tenor of their contents. Upon this particular point he should observe, that if other reasons did not interfere with the production of these documents, he could, for his part, have no objection to producing them; and on this occasion he trusted he should meet with the indulgence of the house, in adding a few words upon a subject so immediately personal to himself. If he were to look to himself alone, he should have no difficulty in producing the papers, which would take away all misconstructions upon the subject, and leave the learned gent. when he came to bring forward his motion, to discuss it upon the mere naked principle. His right hon. friend had mis-stated the view in which he had used one of those papers which he had read. He had stated, that he (Mr. C.) from lord Howick's dispatch, had imputed that the Danish court was in collusion with France, but this was a mistake; he had only stated that, from all the circumstances of Denmark's having retreated as the French advanced towards Holstein, there was reason to apprehend, if they got possession of Holstein, Denmark might dread their proceeding to do the same by Zealand, and that might be a means of drawing the Danish fleet into the hands of France; and he thought the noble lord had good cause for fearing that might be the case. His right hon. friend, in one part of his speech, admitted, and in the wording of his motion, had more strongly confirmed the admission, that it must be left to his majesty's ministers to say what particular papers ought to be laid before the house, and what would be inconvenient or dangerous so to do, and then called on him to say whether there would be any inconvenience in the production of the papers now moved for? To this he distinctly answered, yes, there would be the highest inconvenience. His right hon. friend had told them that we had but one ally in Europe, and that he was in the greatest danger. He argued that this danger would arise to Sweden, from having entered into a compact with this country relative to taking possession of Norway, and in return asked for the whole correspondence relating to that transaction. His right hon. friend's belief with respect to that was founded on a few paragraphs in the Moniteur, which he brought down, threw on the table, and then called on ministers for all the corres pondence between them and their only ally; he thought, however, ministers knew too well how to shew their value for their only ally, to comply with so unreasonable a request. He did not know how it was, but it seemed to him the Moniteur had been strangely favourable to the views of the hon. gentlemen opposite; for they no sooner began to be exhausted in topics of declamation against ministers, and to shew symptoms of being languid and flat, than over popt a Moniteur with some agreeable information to cheer their drooping spirits, and to give them a fresh opportunity of calling for more papers, in doing which he thought his right hon. friend had, on the present occasion, shewn a voracious curiosity. If he would limit it to any information that could safely be laid before the house, he would be glad to oblige him as far as possible, to give him an oppor tunity of joining more effectually in the motion, which the hon. and learned gent. soon meant to move on the capitulation of Copenhagen. He assured the house, that in every respect that treaty had been complied with on our part. There had been a conference as to British property seized and detained prior to our taking possession of Zealand, a doubt having arisen whether the capitulation meant to confine it to Zealand only, or to the rest of the Danish territory. It was agreed to be submitted to the officers on both sides, who made the capitulation, and was determined against the English, and implicitly complied with. The same, as to hostilities, by the declaration of war, which were not known at the time of the capitulation; every thing had venience. Of course no detriment could arise from acceding to it. What objection to it, then, could be sustained by the right hon. gent. Indeed, he had offered none. The character of the country had been seriously accused, and to that accusation the rt. hon. gent. contented himself with returning a mere assertion; in which, as usual, he was confident, just in proportion as he was deficient in proof and argument. But the right hon. secretary stated, that even were the papers applied for laid before the house, the gentlemen who supported the motion would not find what they wanted. They wanted some proofs to contradict the statements which had appeared in the Moniteur, and to vindicate the character of the country; which they must feel to be very imperfectly vindi been abided by, that was stipulated by the capitulation. His right hon. friend was also mistaken, as to the offer of Norway to Sweden by France. It was prince Murat, and not gen. Brune, that made the offer which Sweden communicated to Denmark, but which Denmark concealed from us. His right hon. friend seemed to think, that France might do as she pleased might give away Norway with impunity, whilst we should be highly criminal in any such intention, let the state of warfare between us and Denmark be what it might. His last point, however, was, that we should not follow the example of the enemy. In that respect his majesty had hitherto carried on a system of scrupulous forbearance. If his right hon. friend meant that we should not imitate his cruelties, oppressions, and unbounded aggres-cated indeed, if it rested upon the mere sions, he would coincide with him; but if he meant that we should not follow him in every measure which might tend to put us on a perfect equality with him in carrying on the war, he must differ with him entirely. His right hon. friend had indulged the exuberant fancy of his classic mind, by giving garbled extracts from Latin poets, by way of quotation; such as Ridiculum acri quid vetat.'-If, he was inclined to retort a quotation on his right hon. friend, it would, he thought, be strictly allowable to him to say. Arma virumque cano-fas est et ab hoste doceri.'Buonaparte, whatever might be his cruelties, his oppressions, or his aggressions, had on all occasions scrupulously adhered to and protected those who had entered into alliance with him: he had never sacrificed an ally to any consideration, however pressing or important. Ministers were that night called on to give up the correspondence of our only ally, which could not fail of being attended with great inconvenience; and he would, therefore, so far follow the example of the enemy as to adhere to our ally, and to refuse his assent to his right hon. friend's motion. Mr. Windham saw very little in the speech of the right hon. gent. that had any application to the question, and even in that little could discover no force. The right hon. secretary had laid down a doctrine with regard to the communication of papers to that house, which, even supposing it were admitted, could not operate against the motion. For, according to the terms of that motion, ministers would be left the option of presenting such information only as could not militate against public con assertion of the right hon. gent. If the Mr. Ponsonby, though sensible of the just rebuke of the right hon. secretary upon himself and his colleagues; that they suppose that gen. Pieman, whose command did not extend beyond Zealand, could conclude for the Danish government, or that he could covenant for the restoration of British property in other parts of the Danish territory? But, the course of ministers towards Sweden, when it was proposed, in apparent conformity with the capitulation, to evacuate Zealand, and to which the motion alluded, was of a most extraordinary character. The right hon. gent. wished and hoped that ministers would acquit themselves of the imputation which attached to this part of the transac tion. It was, in fact, an act of much greater turpitude than the attack upon Copenhagen. It was, indeed, so considered throughout Europe; and for the honour of the country, and of ministers themselves, it was highly desirable to contradict it. Mr. Cunning begged the indulgence of the house, merely to put a question, whether, if the Moniteur should make a charge against the government of this country, such a charge should become a ground for the opposition in that house to draw from his majesty's ministers a public disclosure of their confidential communications with friendly powers? were grown dry in the debate; that they were quite exhausted in language, and required the Promethean fire of the Moniteur to rekindle them into activity; could never admit that any such imputation was ever likely to attach to the right hon. secretary himself. No that right hon. gent.'s ideas were so numerous that they could not in a moment be put in array. The man who had few ideas could easily summon them into action, particularly when by perpetual practice they were drilled in all the evolutions of the disputant. The right hon. gent. was such an economist in thoughts, and such a prodigal in words, that he could feel no embarrassment in debate. He could upon any occasion bring forward that chain of words which jingled in the ear, but which rarely affected the understanding, and never approached the heart; and some of his partisans might call it eloquence.-The right hon. gent. animadverted, in terms of peculiar pungency, upon the several parts of.the right hon. secretary's speech. He particularly pointed out his disposition to quote garbled extracts to suit his object; which he illustrated by referring to the quotation of the right hon. secretary this evening, from the declaration of his ma- Mr. Laing stated, that the king of Swejesty relative to Denmark. The right hon. den indirectly confirmed the accusation secretary only quoted a line which spoke in the Moniteur, by saying he would ocof his majesty's too long forbearance and cupy Zealand with Swedish troops if he moderation: but he declined to read the thought it necessary. Another confirmawhole passage, which spoke of the exer- tion was, that it had been matter of delition of the powers of the country which beration whether Zealand could be retainwere called for at this crisis, and propor-ed by British troops, and that the officers tioned to the magnitude of the danger.' consulted declared against the practicaWhat, however, he would ask, did this bility. exertion of the powers of the country,' &c. amount to? Why, to the attacking of a neutral unprepared power, bombarding its capital, and taking away its fleet! Did the right hon. secretary call this a great exertion of our power, or could he call it advantageous? No; for we had left behind us a country more hostile than it was before our theft was committed, and with means of hostility not very materially diminished. Was this, then, that signal and exemplary exertion of our power, of which ministers in their public declaration were so forward to boast? The conduct of ministers in negotiating with Sweden for the occupation of Zealand after it should be evacuated by our army according to the capitulation, excited his astonishment. But the doubts they affected to entertain as to the terms of the capitulation were still more astonishing. How could they Earl Temple thought the matter under consideration might be brought within a very small compass, and decided by a single question. That question he should put to the ministers; and it was of such a character that the country would draw its conclusion as much from silence as from an answer. Ministers were most seriously accused of intending to break or evade a solemn capitulation. Now, he would ask, was there, or was there not, any negotiation with Sweden, or any foreign power, to occupy Zealand after our troops were bound to evacuate it, pursuant to the terms of the capitulation?-No answer was made. The question being loudly called for, the gallery was cleared, and the house divided. The numbers were, Ayes 85; Noes 184; Majority 99. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Friday, Feb. 26. Numbers. Land Forces (including various Contingencies).........200,631 Troops and Companies for recruiting ditto... Great Britain. 5,8 2,922 9 1 631,525 8 9 437 25,231 129 2,236,462 0 4 363,902 6 5 Embodied Militia........108,384 Staff and Garrisons....... Full Pay to Supernumerary Public Departments............ In-Pensioners of Chelsea and Kilmainham Hospitals......... Out-Pensioners of Do...... 32,213 2 8 188,680 19 6 209,750 - year. Ireland. 846,408 17 6 778 1 9 8,921 1426,732 6 1 ing as last year. Some trifling reduction was intended, but not sufficient to make any alteration in the estimate. The wag[ARMY ESTIMATES.] The house having gon train was reduced to 500 horses. It resolved itself into a Committee of Supply, had been proposed last year, but the emThe Secretary of War rose for the pur-ployment of the number of horses and pose of moving the Army Estimates. All waggons now kept up, was more economic that he thought it necessary to do was, to than the hiring of waggons to do the nestate the particulars in which the present cessary work. The men were trained to Estimates differed from those of last arms, and it was desirable to keep them in The next article The estimates now before the committee his majesty's service. were classed under the following heads: was the militia, which, he was happy to say, was as near its full complement as ever, after having given to the line an addition of 24,000 disciplined men. The Volunteer Estimate was the same as that of last with the addition of the charge year, for Inspecting Field Officers. With respect to Foreign Corps, a small addition had been made to the German Legion, but not such as to make any difference in the effective force, which was still the same. In the Royal Military College a Board of General Officers had thought fit to make a small increase of the salaries of the Chief Officers, and to augment the Staff. He trusted this establishment would be preserved, increased, and made permanent. In every military country there were establishments of this description, and in no country were they so much wanted as they were in this, in which there were not the same opportunities that the continent possessed of observing and comparing the merits and defects of a number of armies, and selecting whatever was good from the practice of each. After recapitulating the several items of increase, the right hon. secretary concluded with moving, " That 124,000 effective men be voted for the service of guards and garrisons, &c. for 366 days, from 1st Jan. 1808, to 1st Jan. 1809, both inclusive." Widows Pensions 40,969 13 10 329,619 9 2 40,495 10 6 652,000 -795.617 3 2 21,025 17 4 19,908 9 3 16,942 17 3 2,852 5 3 18,676 8 9 442,262 13 5 190,253 7 4 11,670,404 2 9 3,773,664 19 4 10,978,878 14-3,773,664 19 4 Several particulars with respect to marching-money, innkeepers allowances, and some other items, it was difficult to make out in the way of exact account. But as far as that could be done it had been. The principal alteration in point of charge arose from the care that had been taken to transfer from the army extraordinaries, every thing that could be made a subject of estimate. He had the satisfaction to state, that the army which the house was now called on to provide for was, in point of discipline, equal to any army in the world, and in point of numbers superior to any this country had ever had. The amount was in regulars and militia not less than 300,000 men. There was also a greater proportion of effective men than had ever been known, and the actual amount of force was as near the establishment as was possible. The increase from last year consisted chiefly in British regular disposable infantry, that most efficient description of force. The effective force was within 13,000 of the establishment; an approximation scarcely ever known before. The cavalry was on the same footVOL. X. Mr. Calcraft asserted, that all his apprehensions of the disorganization of the militia, and the increase of the bounties by the volunteering were made good; of 16,000 men that had volunteered from the British militia, only 1600 had entered for life, and most of them being superannuated, entered for life to get the additional bounty, in the confidence of being discharged again before the 7 years should clapse. He allowed the militia would be filled up again by May, but not without infinite hardship to those classes of the people that ought to be particularly spared. Mr. Windham admitted that the estimates, from the approaching expiration of the Mutiny act, must be voted without 3 C |