Lord George Germain. I hope I shall be excused, Sir, for trespassing a few mi nutes on the time of the House. I should be sorry to be a supporter of those mea sures, which are termed wicked and ty did make his country too big for any one, even himself, to govern. There is not a symptom that any of the people out of doors are displeased with our measures; but I am told quite the contrary. America, at this instant, is in a state of down-rannical; but as I cannot think that this right anarchy.; let us give it a government. I always, Sir, speak when I like, and hold my tongue when I think proper; and whatever weight and force I may have been represented to have, connected with my friends, I would give it in support of the noble lord; I would vote, Sir, for these measures, were I upon my oath, which seems now to be the fashionable parliamentary test [alluding to those objections he always made to the oath of the committee appointed to try controverted elections]; and whether I am upon my honour, or my oath, I will give a hearty concurrence to these measures. Bill has any such designs, I shall readily adopt it. The trial of the military has been much objected to. What is it, Sir, but a protection of innocence? Will you not wish for that, Sir? America, at this instant, is nothing but anarchy and confusion. Have they any one measure but what depends upon the will of a lawless multitude? Where are the courts of justice? Shut up. Where are your judges? One of them taking refuge in your court. Where are your council? Where is your governor? All of them intimidated by a lawless rabble. Can these men expect a fair trial? No, Sir, at present they have no existence as any part of the executive power. It is objected, that the judges re General Conway. I would not take up the time of the House at this late hour of the night, but for a very short time. Iceive their salaries from the crown, and never did maintain that Great Britain had no right to tax America; I said that taxation and legislation had no connection; I allowed that we had an abstract right to tax Ireland, and also America, in the Declaratory Act; but I do not know the time when it will be proper and right so to tax. This measure will throw us into great difficulties, which I do not know when we shall get out of. The tax upon tea does nothing for our revenue; it is no object; as long as you continue the doctrine of taxing America, you will never be at rest. Where is this olive branch I have heard so much talk about? It is not to be found in these measures. I do not wish to see the military protected from the laws of their country; if they commit an offence, why not leave them open in the same manner as others are? I have said, that we are the aggressors, and I say so still; after so many innovations of the Stamp Act, and other taxes, I am for cap-in-hand measures, for lenity and tenderness to the Americans. There is an universal right in persons to be heard at this bar in judicial cases, when they apply for it; but I rise, Sir, only to lament what I cannot prevent; and that this spirit may be rightly directed, I do hope that the Americans will wait till better times; for I think it is better to have peace with America, and war with all the world, than to be at war with America; because, if they are at peace with us, they will contribute to support us in time of war. not from the people. It is to me a matter charter. It is incumbent on every man to give his opinion from his own breast upon this great occasion; but, Sir, I cannot help once more condemning that mob of people, which, under the profession of liberty, carries dark designs in its execution; but my utmost wish is, that these measures, in their consequences, may turn out well, and contrary to what has been apprehended. Mr. Charles Fox. I take this to be the question, whether America is to be governed by force, or management? I never could conceive that the Americans could be taxed without their consent. Just as the House of Commons stands to the House of Lords, with regard to taxation and legislation, so stands America with Great Britain. There is not an American, but who must reject and resist the principle and right of our taxing them. The question, then, is shortly this: Whether we ought to govern America on these principles? Can this country gain strength by keeping up such a dispute as this? Tell me when America is to be taxed, so as to relieve the burthens of this country. I look upon this measure to be in effect taking away their charter; if their charter is to be taken away, for God's sake let it be taken away by law, and not by a legislative coercion but I cannot conceive that any law whatever, while their charter continues, will make them think that you have a right to tax them. If a system of force is to be established, there is no provision for that in this Bill; it does not go far enough; if it is to induce them by fair means, it goes too far. The only method by which the Americans will ever think they are attached to this country, will be by laying aside the right of taxing. I consider this Bill as a Bill of pains and penalties, for it begins with a crime, and ends with a punishment; but I wish gen tlemen would consider, whether it is more proper to govern by military force, or by management. cure the tax by requisition is a most ridiculous absurdity, while the sovereignty remains in this country; and the right of taxing was never in the least given up to the Americans. Their charter is mere matter of legislative power; and whoever looks into it, will see that no power whatever was meant to be given them so as to controul the right of taxation from Great Britain. Mr. Edmund Burke. I have little to say, Sir; but what I have to offer, I shall offer with freedom. It has been asserted, that the nation is not alarmed, that no petitions of discontent are received. How can persons complain, when sufficient time is not given them to know what you are about? We have now seen the whole of this great work; I wish all was good that it contained. I am afraid a long series of labours and troubles will succeed. The question that is before you is a great one; it is no less than the proscription of provinces, and cities, and nations, upon their trial; except that when the saints of God are to judge the world, I do not know one of greater importance. I will endeavour to comply with the temper of the House, and be short in what I have to offer. [The House being noisy, several members going out, soon after which he got up and said,] I find, Sir, I have got my voice, and I shall beat down the noise of the House. Why did I compromise? [Hero he produced the letters from lord Hillsborough to the Americans, which declared, that his Majesty or his ministers, had not any intention of laying any further taxes on America.] He dwelt some considerable time on the words which the letter contained, as a sort of declaration to the Americans that they should not be taxed. If you govern America at all, Sir, it must be by an army; but the Bill before us, carries with it the force of that army; and I am of opinion, they never will consent without force being used. I have to protest against this Bill, because you refuse Mr. Attorney General Thurlow. The to hear the parties aggrieved. Consider form of the present law was adopted to what you are doing, when you are taking give magistracy that degree of authority the trial over the Atlantic seas, 3,000 miles which it ought to be vested with for the to Great Britain; witnesses may be execution of the laws; but this Bill carries subpoenaed, and called upon by the priwith it no degree of severity, unless the soner, as many as he pleases. Let me, pleasure of disobeying is greater than that for God's sake, wish that gentlemen of the punishment. To say that we have would think a little more that a fair trial a right to tax America, and never to exer- may be had in America; and that while cise that right, is ridiculous; and a man the King appoints the judge, there is a must abuse his own understanding very degree of fairness that people should the much, not to allow of that right. To pro-jury. Repeal, Sir, the Act which gave [VOL. XVII,] [4 P] when they are quiet, and return to their duty, we shall be kind, whether by repealing this tax, or what not, I cannot tell; but this I will answer, that when they are quiet, and have a respect for their mother country, the mother country will be good-natured to them. rise to this disturbance; this will be the|blish our authority, or give it up entirely; remedy to bring peace and quietness, and restore authority; but a great black book, and a great many red coats, will never be able to govern it. It is true, the Americans cannot resist the force of this country, but it will cause wranglings, scuffling, and discontent. Such remedies as the foregoing, will create disturbances that can never be quieted. Sir George Savile. I shall say not a word of preface at this late hour; I do not hold it improper to take this into consideration in a legislative capacity, in preference to a judicial one; but I hold this to be a principle of justice, that a charter which conveys a sacred right, ought not to be taken away without hearing the parties, either in a judicial or legislative way, which has not been done, but from their own declaration in the papers on the table, and which I, in my mind, do not think sufficient evidence. The question being put, the House divided. The Noes went forth. Tellers. Onslow YEAS {Mr. On Carmarthen.} NOES Mr. Byng 239 64 So it was resolved in the affirmative, and the Bill was read the third time and passed. Lord North rose to answer Mr. Burke. He desired leave to look at lord Hillsborough's letter, as he had not a copy of it; and explained the passages in that letter very different from what Mr. Burke had: he read the words, "That neither the King, or any of his ministers, wished to tax America." His lordship observed, that this was not an expression that carried with it a denial of the right, but only a wish that no further taxes should be laid on. A man, said he, is not factious, that says America may be taxed; the letter contains an opinion, that no further taxes, at that time, ought to be laid. I am sorry to hear a charge thrown out, that these proceedings are to deprive persons of their natural right. Let me ask, of what natural right, whether that of smuggling, or of throwing tea overboard? Or of another natural right, which is not paying their debts? But surely this Bill does not destroy any of their civil rights? You have given them a civil magistrate and a council, which they had not before; you ,, have given the innocent man a fair trial in some colony or other; and if he cannot get a fair trial in that country, the whole being in a distempered state of disturbance Mr. Dempster. I do not apprehend, and opposition to the laws of the mother Sir, that the Bill before you is at all ade country, then, in that case, and in that quate to the purpose intended; nor do I' only, he must be sent to Great Britain. think that experience warrants the asserAll that these Acts profess to do, is to re- tion, that a fair trial cannot be had in the store some order to the province. None colonies. Surely, Sir, the bringing men over that admit the least degree of sovereignty, to England to be tried, is not only a direct can possibly deny the provision of this breach of their constitution, but is a deBill; it is not a military government that privation of the right of every British subis established, but the alteration of a civil ject in America. I should have thought one. I am sure that this is adopted as the that a power of reprieve, ledged in the best method at present; I do not say it governor, after conviction, would have will succeed, but I hope for the good con- been fully sufficient, without bringing men sequences of it; and if Massachuset's to England. Whenever murder is comBay is to be governed by management, mitted, it must inevitably go off with im this is the only remedy. By what means punity; for whenever any person preis authority to be maintained, but by esta- sent shall find he is to go over the Atlantic blishing that authority from parliament? as an evidence, to the detriment of his I do not know, Sir, what is the proper family and his fortune, there is no doubt time to lay a fresh tax on America; but but that he will evade the necessity of his this I know, that this is not the proper appearance as an evidence. This, Sir, time to repeal one. We are now to esta-will be a means of subjecting the people Further Debate in the Commons on the Bill for the impartial Administration of Justice in Massachuset's Bay.] May 6, The order of the day for the third reading of this Bill being read, be found in history; but I could wish, on the present occasion, that a second had not been made. He concluded in praise of the character of Dr. Franklin, whom he called the ornament of human nature; and said he thought him highly praise-worthy, for those very acts for which he had been so much blamed. Mr. Grey. I think this House and the nation at large, owe their best thanks to the noble lord who has brought forward this business; and I must allow, that nothing but necessity, in urgent cases like these, warrants a deviation from the constitution; the law should not be invaded on every frivolous pretence, but this requires the serious attention of the whole legislature. It would be cruel to the last degree, when your subjects are employed in preserving the peace, not to give them the utmost security in the execution of their duty. But let me ask, Sir, in what situation will that navy and army be, that has no protection for the execution of the laws which you have vested in their hands? Will you leave them a sacrifice to the rapacity of the revengeful dispositions of the relations of those unhappy men who may fall by their hands, in the execution of their duty? I cannot think this Act will operate in any shape to the detriment of the people, if they return to their duty; if that is the case; if they do return, and be obedient, the Act will be a waste piece of paper; but the trial of persons in England will seldom take place, I apprehend, as nothing but the most absolute necessity will drive the governor to have recourse to the Act. of that country to assassination, in the room of legal trial; and the invariable consequence has always been, that when a fair trial cannot be procured, the revenge of the relations of the deceased will exercise itself in this kind of cruel assassination. I, perhaps, Sir, may be wrong in my ideas; but I have looked into the history of that country with care and circumspection, and it has inspired me with the highest veneration for those who were the first settlers; they emigrated when that Star Chamber doctrine was practised in this country. Oppressed as they thought themselves by the mother country, by the cruelty of those arbitrary laws, sooner than suffer themselves to be oppressed by tyranny, they chose rather to combat with tygers and Indians in America, than live in a place where oppression and tyranny ruled. It is no new thing, Sir, that they have refused to comply with the payment of taxes demanded from this country; this exemption is a very old demand of theirs, and supported by their charter. Imprisonment of two persons, who held this kind of doctrine, was made in the time of sir Edmund Andrews, who was then governor; and the Americans passed a law, declaring that this country had no right to tax; it is true, when that law came over here, it was rejected. Let gentlemen consider, that if we tax America at this present period, her trade and every thing else will decline. I think that Boston has the most merit with this country of any place I know; she is a most valuable ally, or a subordinate colony; take it in either sense, her possession is inestimable; but I really fear very much, that the Americans are to be thus treated without the parties being heard. I do not like to see public liberty and the rights of persons infringed. There are two articles in the Bill, which I cannot blame the Americans for resisting; I mean that of the council and the judges being chosen by the crown: the ancient way which their charter directed of chusing their council, was far more eligible; they were men at a certain age, to which experience generally adds wisdom, that were elected council; but this is a new system, that carries with it neither experience nor wisdom; and I think the change unnecessary, though not oppressive. I think the office of sheriff is more oppressive, because he is an engine of power in the hands of the governor; nor do I approve of taking away the town-meetings; there is but one precedent of this kind to Mr. Paulet observed, that nothing was ever more just than the measure proposed in the Bill before the House; that it was the most cruel thing to let a man lie even one hour in prison, in expectation of being tried by a jury whose minds were biassed; but for the sake of justice, a voyage across the Atlantic would surely be thought, on such an account, an undertaking not pregnant with much danger. Mr. Sawbridge. I hope, Sir, the House will hear me a few words, as it is the last opportunity I shall have. The opposition I have given to these measures, does not proceed from a settled disposition against administration, nor do I do it for the sake of popularity; it is for the love of that li berty which I have always been strengthened in, and bred up by education. I had rather bear the badge of the parish, than that of apostacy. It has been urged in debate, that this country has a right to pursue those measures adopted in the Bill, and that necessity is the ground and argument which urges it on: but pray, Sir, let me ask, who is to be the judge of that necessity? A nation, surely, cannot be called a free nation, where another has a right to draw money out of their pockets; but I cannot understand how any one can agree with these measures, and deny the right of taxation. If you exercise an authority which does not belong to you, or if you force an illegal authority, they have a right to resist. I do not see any necessity for bringing over the people to be tried by a jury in England; I think the crown should have lodged a power in the governor to pardon, and I should have thought it the brightest jewel in it on this occasion. You say, that the governor is to use his discretion with regard to the having a fair trial; but by this Bill the governor, I say, is not the judge of that, for it must be upon the oath of a witness; he must believe that witness, and no discretion is left in the governor. No man will become a voluntary evidence on such an occasion; he will sooner fly from that situation, than be transported to England. By that means justice will be evaded, as evidence cannot be had, and the people will soon take upon themselves to revenge their own injuries. Colonel Barré. Sir, I think it criminal to sit still upon the final decision of this question, as I cannot, in any shape, approve of this measure. I think the persons whom you employ to execute your laws, might have been protected in the execution of their duty in a less exceptionable manner than that Bill proposes. Your army, Sir, in that country, has the casting voice; and it is dangerous to put any more power into their hands. Consider, Sir, how long they will be content with 4d. per day; I am afraid not long. You have had one meeting already, you may soon have another; the people of America will receive these regulations as edicts from an arbitrary government. The heaviest offence they have been guilty of is, that they have resisted that law which bears such an arbitrary cast. I want to know, if we in this country had not resisted such arbitrary laws in certain ancient times, whether we should have existed as a House of Commons here this day? I object much against the doctrine which I have heard laid down, that the particular exigency of the case countenanced the measure. I do not apprehend the Americans will abandon their principles; for if they submit, they are slaves: I therefore execrate the present measure, in the manner proposed. Mr. Pulteney. Sir, I will comprise in a few words what I have to say: I do not apprehend that the legislature can tax a particular county, without shewing some degree of partiality to others, nor can they justly do it. I think the principles of this Bill may be tolerably equitable, and I do believe it will produce a fair trial; but as there are some defects in the form in which it now stands, with regard to the errors and flaws that may be in an indict ment, I will offer a clause, by way of rider, to give power to a jury in England to find a bill of indictment, in order to correct such a deficiency. that Mr. Fuller. Sir, I will now take my leave of the whole plan, and will give you my free opinion of it: you will commence your ruin from this day, if you do not repeal the tax which has created all this disturbance; you will have no degree of confidence with the Americans; people will not trust you when your credit is gone; you may, I say, date your ruin from this day; and, I am sorry to say, not only this House has fallen into that error, but that the people of this country approve of the measure. I find the people wish for the measures proposed in this Bill, as much as the majority here: it is not all owing to the junto of a ministry that these measures are taken; it is the people at large who, I am sorry to say, are misled: they are in an error, but a short time will prove the evil tendency of this Bill. I think the present Bill bears the least injury of any of the three; but if ever there was a nation running headlong to its ruin, it is this, Mr. H. Cavendish. Sir, I am very glad to hear that there is a majority in this House for these measures; but am much better pleased that the country in general approve of them in as high a degree. The House divided. The Yeas went forth. |