and I confess the Bill is not, in my opinion, possessed of those absurdities and contradictions which he imagines it is. As to the mode of punishment, I think it perfectly clear and just. The man may appeal instantly, and when an appeal is once lodged, the punishment is immediately suspended. No man will decline appealing for four days, nor is it likely he will submit to be punished without appealing. However, Sir, to convince the hon. gentleman of my readiness to have our laws explicit and just, I heartily second the motion. Mr. T. Townshend.. Sir, I remember last session the same objections as have been started by the hon. gentleman who made the motion struck me, and I was desirous of moving for a repeal of the Bill altogether, but gentlemen who wished to preserve their dogs were averse to that; and when I attempted to move to have it explained and amended, the gentlemen who were concerned in the drawing of this Bill were so tenacious of their judgment and abilities, that I was moved out of the committee. I hope, however, the House will now take it into consideration; and, if the hon. gentleman is agreeable, I think the words to amend and explain' are much better than those of rendering more effectual.' evident marks that it was not passed in those days when the good old Onslow filled the chair; but the times since then are strangely altered! The difference is incredible. [Here the House attempted to murmur.] Excuse me, Sir, I am yet within order; I assert the truth; and if any gentleman will give himself the trouble to convince me of my mistake, I will most readily beg pardon of the House for having trespassed on their patience; but the cruelty and folly of this Bill is so conspicuous, that I cannot, as a member of parliament, help standing up in my place, Land condemning it as equally injurious and disgraceful. If gentlemen will peruse Cit, I have no doubt but they will agree with me that it ought to be repealed. There are many other absurdities of less consequence in this Bill; the first of them that stares you in the face is the altering the mode of punishment for the second offence. A direct contradiction! And how pred is it possible for a magistrate, when an offender is brought before him, to know whether it is the first or second offence? Another one, no less extraordinary and unconstitutional, is the manner of conviction. It is upon an information only, and that information is not to be made upon aker oath. Have we any thing to equal this in our statutes? No! Shame upon such disgraceful proceedings; I am at a loss for ty words severe enough to censure them. Was it ever heard of before in this country, that one man shall be publicly whipped upon the mere ipse dixit of another? I am astonished how this House, distinguished be for its wisdom, could be guilty of so notorious an error; and I will not rest till the numerous defects in this Bill are remedied, or the Bill, which is a disgrace to our statutes, repealed. As to the other clauses, they are of less import, and I will not trouble the House any farther. I therefore move, Sir, that leave be given for bringing in a Bill for rendering more effectual an Act passed in the 10th of the present reign, for preventing the stealing of dogs. A Member. Sir, I rise up to say something upon this matter, as the hon. gentleman who had the orders of this House to bring in the Bill, is absent; and as I was concerned in another Bill of a similar nature, which the hon. gentleman will most likely also object to, I think it incumbent on me to vindicate the conduct of the hon. member who is absent. I have heard what the hon. gentleman who made the motion has said within and without doors, of 版 Mr. R. Whitworth. I have no objection at all to the words amend and explain,' they are most certainly better; but: I never wish to lay two acts of parliament before a justice of the peace, as they will only perplex him: one he may understand, but two will confuse him. At some other time I will move for some alterations in the Game Act. The penalty in that is verbatim the same as in the Dog Act. [Here several members begged him to proceed, and finish with both at once.] I will not detain the House five minutes then, as one is exactly the same as the other. The defects are equal, and I think seriously deserving of amendment. therefore move, Sir, that leave be given to bring in a Bill to amend and explain an Act for the better preservation of the Game in that part of Great Britain called England: Leave was given to bring in the said Bills. Motion for a Bill to prevent Foreigners being part Owners of British Ships.] Feb.4. Mr. Rose Fuller moved the House, that an Act passed in the 12th of Charles 2, com I' and America." The reason, he said, for making the word 'part owners' part of the motion, was to avoid the hurting a very beneficial trade now carried on, which was building ships in America and the West Indies and disposing of them to fo reigners here and elsewhere. The Speaker remarked from the chair, that this was a new species of villainy, and one of the most extraordinary that had chase a share in a vessel with the sole view of raising contributions on the rest of the owners. He added, that he hoped there was some method of coming at such atrocious offenders, they merited signal pu nishment, and he trusted they would ac cordingly receive it; at least, nothing in his power should be wanting to effect it. Mr. Grey Cowper answered, that he much doubted whether there were any such; that the motion was a very proper one; that it might answer the intention as well in future as on the present occasion; and that if on enquiry it was found that the law had provided a sufficient remedy, the Bill might be then dropped. monly called the Navigation Act, might be read, as well as another of the 7th and 8th of William 3, intitled an Act for preventing frauds and regulating abuses in the plantation trade; which being agreed to, he observed, that it was chiefly to this Act and this explanation, that we owed almost all the advantages we enjoyed as a great trading and commercial nation; that to this only we were indebted for our present national opulence and naval pre-been ever devised, that a man should pur eminence; that it was one of the prime provisions in that law, nay the grand basis of the rest, that no foreigner should have any share or property in any vessel coming from our settlements in North America, the West Indies, Asia, or Africa; for that it was specially provided that the produce of our colonies, in those several places, should be transported in British Mr. Dempster objected to the necessity bottoms, that is, by vessels solely the pro- of the intended motion, as there were meperty of natural born subjects; that how-thods, he believed, might be pursued that ever salutary this law might be, there were would answer the same end as effica opportunities frequently taken, particu- ciously, without increasing the number of larly of late, to employ it to the worst our laws, or giving the legislature so much purposes, which was by foreigners pur- trouble. chasing shares of vessels employed in those respective trades, and refusing to part with them, unless an exorbitant advance, beyond the real value of those shares, was given them, by which means the other partners and owners were obliged to comply with those unjust demands, or submit to an enormous expence; that he should not take up the time of the House in multiplying instances of this extraordinary mode of fraud, but just advert to a case of which, if necessary, there was evidence ready to be given at the bar, which was of a foreigner who had two shares in a ship bound to Jamaica, and just ready to sail, who now actually insisted that he should have his own price for those shares, and had, to prevent a possibility of the contrary, given notice to the boards of Admiralty, Trade, and Customs; that the rest of the partners, resolving to put a stop to so fraudulent and pernicious a practice, had determined to persevere, though at the expence of at least five pounds a day, and apply to the legislature for redress; that, seeing the urgent necessity for the immediate interference of parliament in a matter of such a nature, he now moved, "That this House will, upon Tuesday next, resolve itself into a committee of the whole House, to consider of proper methods of preventing the evils arising from foreigners becoming part owners of ships trading to Asia, Africa, Feb. 18. Mr. Rose Fuller moved, that the House should go into the said committee. He understood there was a standing order of the House of last year, which directed that no proposition for the altering of any of the laws relative to religion or trade should be examined but in a committee. This motion, he conceived, was therefore strictly within that order. He said there were several witnesses waiting at the door ready to be called in and examined, in order to prove to the House the grounds and necessity there were for the present application; and finished by observing, that the part he had taken in this matter proceeded by no means from a desire of fixing a stigma or throwing obloquy upon any man, but purely with an intention of procuring redress for an evil that called loudly for relief. The House accordingly went into a committee (Mr. Alderman Oliver in the chair), when Mr. Moss, Mr. Alcock, Mr. Simon, &c. were examined at the bar. The substance of their evidence was, That Half-pay. The Speaker asked whether it had the consent of the crown. Lord North rose and informed the House, that no matter, which was to affect the public revenue, could be agitated in that House, without the consent of the crown, given by some of its officers; that though that form had not been complied with, he did not rise to oppose the Petition being brought up; but he took this opportunity of informing such as might be equally interested on the same ground, that his consent in the present instance, by no means implied an approbation or promise of support to the measure; as he was, for the most cogent reasons, determined to oppose it through every stage. Then the Petition was brought up and read; setting forth, the ships Ipswich and Manning were both | tains of the Navy for an increase of their in the Jamaica trade, and river built: that the former is of 400 tons burthen, the latter 305 tons: that a M. Massou, a Frenchman, and not naturalized, purchased at a sale an eighth of the ship Ipswich, and three sixteenths of the Manning: that notice had been given at the Admiralty to prevent them getting Mediterranean passes, and at the Custom-house to prevent their sailing, as a foreigner was part owner: that the said M. Massou, as soon as this impediment was discovered, on being applied to, and desired to dispose of those shares for a reasonable compensation, absolutely refused, unless at an advance much beyond the market price, or their real value that the latter of those vessels E had been detained by that means in the river since the 20th of January, at a very great expence, and had lost her freight: that the other had been likewise detained, under a similar expence, since the 12th of the same month: and that the broker, who sold one of the shares to M. Massou, having informed him that such a purchase would answer no end, as he was precluded from deriving any benefit from it by the laws of this country, M. Massou answered, that he was fully apprized of that, but doubted not he should nevertheless profit by the transaction. e pecs After these witnesses were examined, a person, who was master of a vessel in the same trade, in 1770, informed the House, that, being outward bound, he was lying at Gravesend, where he was prevented from proceeding on his voyage by an order from the Admiralty; the reason of which was a foreigner having been discovered to be part owner: that upon an application to him to sell his share, he refused; and that at length the rest of the owners were obliged to comply with the exorbitant demand of 150l. for his eighth, and a compliment of ten guineas to the attorney, though another eighth, which came to be disposed of at the same time by death, brought no more than 56l. 10s. When the evidence was finished, Mr. Fuller moved, That leave be given to bring in a Bill for preventing abuses in the sale of shares in British built ships to foreigners; which was accordingly given. Debate in the Commons on a Petition from the Captains in the Navy for an Addition to their Half Pay.] February 9. Lord Howe acquainted the House that he had a Petition to present from the Cap[VOL. XVII.] "That many of the Petitioners, having no other means of subsistence than their half-pay, are under the greatest difficulties to provide for their support; and that the provision made for them, and stiled their Half-pay, is rated on a reduced establishment, and does not, in their particular case, bear the proportion to their wholepay; and that the petitioners have always been, and ever shall be, ready to testify, by their conduct, their unabated zeal for the public service; and solicit such relief, in their present necessities, by a suitable addition to their half-pay, or such other relief, as to the House shall seem meet." After the Petition had been read, there was a general silence in the House for a full minute, probably on account of the modest terms in which it was conceived, considering the rank and the high and notorious deserts of the petitioners. At length Lord Howe rose, and stated to the House in the most moderate and guarded terms, the grounds on which the request of the petitioners was founded; he stated the manner of paying and providing for the captains of he navy, from the time of their first having a determined existence, as a military body, to the establishment by which their pay is now regulated: he gave an account of the provision made for this body of men in the infant state of the navy, particularly in the years 1667, 1673, and 1674; in the reign of king James as well as of king William; and of the regulations of 1693, and 1700, of that prince, by an order of council, and so on to the year 1715, when they were put on the [2 Z] footing they have continued ever since. By all which it was evident, that, till the latter period, they were always highly rewarded by posts of considerable profit, by particular gratifications, or by an half pay double to what they now received; his lordship therefore moved, "That the Petition be referred to the consideration of a committee; and that they do examine the matter thereof, and report the same to the House." Lord North informed the House, that from every sentiment of humanity and gratitude, he should be inclined to support the noble lord's motion; that he was well convinced of the merit, and indeed the claim, the petitioners had to public notice and support; that it was impossible to forget the great and conspicuous pretensions on which their claims were founded; that the important services they had rendered their country in contributing, with the rest of the military, towards the successes of the late war, were already sufficiently recorded; that, therefore, it must be extremely painful to him to object to any proposal intended for their benefit; but that it was not what he, or any other gentleman in that House, might feel on the present occasion which should direct them. It was not, he said, what ought to be done, but what could be done: the public finances should be considered, and the strength of the nation, on which the state of those finances so materially depend that if the present application was granted, it would only open a door for more; that to grant one would be doing nothing, and granting all totally impracticable, for many reasons well known; and that, among some others, which it was needless to enumerate, he understood the ship-wrights intended to apply to that House for an increase of their wages; that therefore the impossibility of complying with all those applications, without involving the nation in consequences which could be only known to persons who had turned their attention to the subject, induced him to give a hearty negative to the present motion. : Captain Constantine Phipps next stood up, and said, that though he had the honour to belong to the corps who were petitioners at the bar, he had no personal motive to induce him to stand up in their behalf, further than the propriety of the request, and the necessity there was for complying with it: that he had neither their merit to establish any claim on, nor their wants to plead; but gave his opinion as one of the representative body, and at the same time as a person well acquainted both with the true deserts and real wants of those gentlemen who now prayed to be relieved: that he must confess himself to be sincerely touched with their present distressed situation: that when he considered the several instances in which men of the highest reputation in their profession were struggling in the most difficult situations, under want, sickness, or confirmed disorders, contracted in a long and meritorious service, it was matter of the most painful recollection to him-men, whose very names were terrible to our enemies, whose exploits he was a frequent witness to, and to whom he looked up as the great patterns of imitation; when such men, he said, were starving on the trifling pittance of 70%. a year, perhaps surrounded with a numerous family, or sinking under pain and infirmities, what heart could be so callous as to refuse a relief which good policy must approve, and gratitude and justice so evidently required! The expence of the proposed addition to their pay, he said, would not amount to above five or six thousand pounds per annum ; and shall we be told at the opening of the budget, that such a sum will affect the finances of a great and opulent nation at the end of a ten years glorious peace, when France, immediately after her defeats, her distresses, and public insolvency, had the good policy, and it seems the ability too, to make a provision for her navy captains? That she has done so, said he, I have been informed by an honourable gentleman, high in his profession, whose illness prevents his presence here this day, (Sir Charles Saunders) but who feels no pain so sensibly as not being able to attend according to his most earnest wishes, in order to give testimony of both the propriety and necessity of the present proposed measure. Here the hon. captain read two letters from gentlemen high in the estimation of the public as naval commanders, but who were languishing in some of the situations he had described. He then proceeded: And shall we be told by the best authority, that the public finances are in such a situation as not to admit of the payment of an additional 6,000l., in discharge of so just and necessary a claim, while no later than last session the committee of supply was open to demands of larger sums, though perhaps not designed for better purposes? I shall not take up the time of the House by now enumerating them, further than to put it in mind of the matters I advert to: one gentleman had a comfortable sum of money for freshening salt water; another was amply rewarded by the lovers of virtù, I think to the amount of 8,000l. Let virtù have its reward; perhaps it was well bestowed; I am not against it; all I would wish is, that let people act ever so differently, they would at least preserve some appearance of consistency in their conduct. He concluded with remarking, that he hardly expected that the noble lord who spoke last would himself have announced the petition of the ship-wrights, and that, let the fate of the present one be what it might, he was glad to find they had found so powerful an advocate. Lord North replied, that he believed the hon. gentleman misunderstood him, as he could not believe he meant to misrepresent what he said relative to the shipwrights; that it was true he was acquainted that such an application was intended, and it was equally true, that he informed them he intended to oppose it, and that he mentioned it only as a proof that granting the present request would be only laying a foundation for others, which, in the nature of things, could not be complied with. of the companies belonging to that corps, a butcher was so lucky, or rather so unlucky, as to procure a commission: this fellow, preserving his original manners, used to get drunk with the private men and drummers, which obliged him at length to dismiss him, not however before his party-coloured companions had several times heartily threshed him. What was the consequence? says he. Why, I wrote to Mr. Charles Townshend, who then happened to preside at the War-office, that the unfortunate wretch had mistaken his profession, and begged that he might be reimbursed what his commission cost him, which was 150 guineas, having paid so much to the captain of the independent company for it, which Mr. Townshend was pleased to comply with. He said, that instances of this nature were frequent and well known; that he only selected one that came within his own immediate knowledge, and that subaltern commissions were at that time only looked upon as mere purchases of annuities. And shall, says he, a body of men, such as I have described, be put in competition with gentlemen who have devoted their whole life to the service? Men of family, of tried courage, of skill in their profession, who have protected our commerce, and filled our harbours with the ships and property of our eneColonel Barré said, that it signified very mies? He said, that this country did not little who did or did not apply in the same contain a more useful or respectable body manner, the present question being pro- than the captains of the navy; that the perly, whether the request now made was case of those on half-pay was well known, in itself a just and reasonable one. A and that he doubted much whether the particular stress, he said, was laid both situation of those who were in commission within and without doors upon the impro- was near so desirable as one would imapriety of the present measure, in point of gine: for, if their emoluments were con precedent; but it deserved very little at- siderable, the necessary expences attendtention. The fears suggested of the claims ing their rank and station kept pace with of the military, as distinguished from the their income. He said, they did honour naval service, were much dwelt on; but to their rank and station by their manner for his part, though he belonged to the of living, there being no character in a foformer, and had had the honour of spend- reign country more respected than the ing the greater part of his life among captain of a British man of war, of which them, he could not bring himself to look the frequent visits paid them by the upon their pretensions in an equal light: princes of the blood, and other great perhe was well acquainted with the merits on sonages, whenever they happened to be which the claims of the majority of those stationed in the vicinity of a royal resiwho constituted the half-pay list were dence, was a full proof. But, alas! if any founded: he well remembered the man- of those royal or noble strangers, says he, ner in which the new levies, towards the were, on their arrival in this country, to conclusion of the late war, were made, as enquire for many of the celebrated names, he had the honour himself to be appointed who have had the honour to entertain them to the command of one of those battalions, with so much splendor and magnificence, and he likewise well knew how the gene- where, in all probability, would they be rality of the subaltern officers obtained found?-Why, perhaps, lurking in some their commissions. He said, that in one obscure hole or corner in London, or bu |