ried in oblivion in the country, there to lie totally neglected and forgotten. that virtù was not more amply rewarded. As to the particular merit, and particular wants of many of the petitioners, his lordship said, he had not the least reason to doubt of their being well founded; never ferring to them on the present occasion was totally improper. What do they prove? says he. Why, that many of those gentlemen would be proper objects of our bounty. Is, then, an establishment to take place, under a general description, in order to take in and relieve a few suffering individuals peculiarly circumstanced? No; for his part, though no man in the House would be readier to serve and relieve indigent merit than himself, he should be very sorry to increase establishments that were already known to be so heavy as scarcely to be borne: that whatever plausible pretexts (which are seldom wanting on such occasions) might be offered in or der to induce him to be of another opi nion, his duty in the post he now filled would never admit him to give way to them. He said, that great stress had been likewise laid on the smallness of the sum; but that consideration could by no means weigh with him. He was well apprized that this was but a forerunner to many applications of a like nature. As these, for the reasons before assigned, could not possibly be gratified without incurring the most dangerous and perhaps fatal conse quences, he thought it highly incumbent on him to preclude all such ill-founded expectations, by giving a negative to the present motion. Sir George Savile rose to give his hearty concurrence to the motion; because, though it was a demand on the purses of his constituents, he was thorough-theless he conceived, that quoting and rely satisfied they would cheerfully grant a little where so much was evidently due. He was well convinced how much the public in general was indebted to the petitioners, as well as how shamefully they had been neglected: as an instance of the latter, he had been that morning to visit, in one of the most obscure corners of the borough of Southwark, a gentleman equally distinguished for his military character and private virtues, who, surrounded by a wife and eight children, must suffer all the heartfelt distress of a person genteelly starving, and who had devoted the greater part of his life to the service of his country, with honour and high reputation. He remarked, that to shut the doors of this House, and lock the coffers of the Treasury against such men, was now deemed meritorious; those doors and those coffers that were hospitably open to the lovers of virtù for a much larger claim than was now made that to point out the various instances in which the public money had been thrown away would be at present a nugatory and invidious task: that there was one, however, which he could not well avoid mentioning, which was 3,000l. per annum paid for pens and ink for the use of the House, though a pen could not be had that a person could sign his name with. He said, he now heard with astonishment, for the first time, economy recommended from the Treasury bench, and concluded by hoping, that the next proof of economical reduction would be a saving of candles, by which means the House would be left to debate in the dark. Lord North replied to these charges, that as to the sum granted to the lovers of virtù, he heard it objected to at the time but by one gentleman, who, he believed, was on the opposite bench, though he could not trust to his sight; that, considering the love of virtù, which then prevailed in the House, it was not surprising that the sum now adverted to was cheerfully granted: it was rather strange, that that spirit could be restrained: that, for his part, he was one amongst a few others who attempted to limit it within reasonable bounds, and therefore ventured to ascribe some part of the merit to himself, Sir Gilbert Elliot said, that he had the honour to preside at the head of the second naval department in the kingdom; that however well convinced the noble lord, and many others in administration, might be of the impropriety of giving way to the present application, application, he nevertheless thought, that the rank and acknowledged services of the petitioners at least entitled them to a fair and candid, hearing; that this was seldom denied in affairs of infinitely less importance; that many circumstances might come out in an enquiry of this nature, which might be well worth the attention of the House; that putting an abrupt negative on the motion in the first instance, though it might be well justified on extrinsic considerations, would have a very ungracious appearance; that he would therefore modify his noble friend's motion, if the House pleased, by proposing that the Petition might lie on the table, and the House in the mean time consider of the allegations which it contained; that if they were found not to be sufficiently cogent, or that there were reasons of a superior nature which might prevent a compliance, it might be dismissed. Such a conduct, he added, would have both a decent and equitable appearance, which, upon every ground of parliamentary proceeding, considering the rank of the petitioners, must be denied to what was contended for by the opposers of the motion. He further said, that if this proposal was agreed to, certain circumstances would deserve to be minutely and carefully attended to.-Here sir Gilbert entered into an historical detail of the public provisions made for the navy, both in bertimes of non-employment and actual service, from the reign of Henry 8, when a naval force was first regularly established, and yards and docks built, to that of king William, and concluded with stating a few curious and important facts which happened at the latter period. In the year 1692, the pay of a captain in the navy, he said, was 27s. per day, with an allowance of twelve servants at 6d. per day each, which made the whole 33s.; the year after a different arrangement took place, and As the pay was raised to 30s., and the allow ance for servants struck off. In both these instances the half-pay was 15s. In 1699, administration being embarrassed, and parliament, after the peace of Ryswick, insisting upon almost a total reduction of the military, nay even of his majesty's Dutch guards, the ministers hit upon the expedient of making a saving in the naval department. Propositions were accordingly made to and adopted by the House of Commons, that the full pay of the navy captains should be reduced from 30 to 20s. with which likewise the half-pay list was to conform; but though this transaction stands on the Journals of the House in that light, the captains on full pay were actual gainers by it; for instead of the bare 30s. they were allowed 20s. actual pay, with an allowance of 31 servants, which, in the whole, amounted to 35s. 6d. per day. Thus parliament was imposed on, and the half-pay list, for the first time, reduced, and a foundation in part laid for the hardships they now suffer. Sir Gilbert then moved, that the Petition might lie on the table, to be taken under consideration on some future day. he 244 Mr. Charles Fox then rose, and acquainted the House, that the present pro positions might be taken up on a very narrow ground, the question being, whether an establishment, which was to lay a fresh burden on the public, already sufficiently, though necessarily loaded, should be made, in order to remove the distresses of some particular individuals. He said, that for his part, he always looked upon national establishments in entirely another light; that such institutions were intended for the support and maintenance of particular bodies of men under general descriptions: that the wants or claims of a few were the most absurd reasons that could be possibly devised for such a dangerous innovation; that until the friends of the motion could prove, that the claims of every man who was to be benefited by this motion, or at least a majority of them, might be supported on the same grounds which were maintained in the few instances now quoted, every attempt of that nature, he hoped, would be treated as it deserved. If private distresses are proper objects of parliamentary attention, said he, the doors of the House of Commons had better be at once thrown open; and I will venture to prophesy, we shall have little else to do but to attend to them. There are some already prepared, and others were only waiting for the event of the present application. The hon. gentleman who spoke last, seems to have a very high esteem for the petitioners, and would have a particular attention paid to their rank and services. I applaud the principle of the hon. gentleman; but I fear, what he intends as a favour and a mark of respect, would be an act of the greatest cruelty. He would have us consider the petition; he would have us buoy them up with expectations of what will not, what cannot, come to pass; no, what we must do in a week or a fortnight hence, let us from mercy do now, by which means we shall at once put them out of a state of suspense, preclude a deal of anxiety they may otherwise suffer by a disappointment of vain hopes, and save the House much trouble. The hon. gentleman has likewise dwelt largely on an imposition put on the House of Commons in the year 1699, by the then administration; for my part, I cannot conceive how the hon. gentleman can from even his own principles, and the facts on which they are founded, draw any such conclusion. Here the full is reduced pay from 30 to 20s. per day; if this be a trick, I must confess it is beyond my poor comprehension to perceive it in that light. Sir William Meredith spoke chiefly in reply to lord North. He remarked, that his lordship insisted much that the petititioners were by no means, from their peculiar circumstances, proper objects of relief by a national establishment, but at the same time were deserving of public bounty. He insisted, that among the numerous opportunities which occurred, there never had been a single instance in which it had been exercised. That within his own knowledge, many in the worst situation and of the greatest merit had applied; that there were others whose distresses were no secret, but whose modesty prevented them from making them known; that nevertheless he was confident not one of them experienced the public bounty, which he would beg leave to say, was now artfully held out to them; that therefore this was but a stale trick to defeat the petition. He observed in the course of the debate, that the application of other bodies of men was assigned as a reason for refusing the present request, particularly the subalterns in the army. He was astonished to hear such an absurdity fall from the lips of any man. Surely no person will pretend to assert, says he, that the lieutenants of the army are to be held in the same estimation as the navy captains, or that the former are to be put on a footing with those who hold the rank of colonels? If indeed we were informed that the field officers intended to petition for an increase of halfpay, there would be some foundation for such an objection; but till that event shall happen, let us not be amused with reasoning on facts which are not pretended even to exist, or with strained comparisons and deductions which cannot be just, because the application of them is totally mistaken. Lord North replied, that he never refused, upon any proper application, to exert himself as far as in his power, in behalf of indigent merit; he said, that he heard from every side of the House of the generosity of the French king towards his naval officers, but he begged leave to say, that no officers in Europe, in the same service, and of the same rank, were so amply provided for, as those of our own country. What has been in the beginning, says he, either absolutely denied, or pretended to be supported only by base suggestions, or vague suspicions, is now confirmed to me, by persons whose authority and information I can by no means doubt; that is the intentions of the half pay officers of the army to petition for an increase of their pay. One hon. gentleman has attempted to elude all the force of the objection, by lowering their pretensions to such a favour: another has spoken out plainer, and defended the propriety of such an application: these proofs alone would therefore be sufficient reason with me to oppose the present motion, if there were no other besides. I heartily concur in the sentiments of my hon. friend near me, (Mr. C. Fox) that the idea of a national establishment, and a bounty to certain persons, under peculiar circumstances of distress, are to tally repugnant and incompatible with each other: as to the hon. gentleman, who has proposed changing the original motion, added he, I am neither fully satisfied of the certainty of the facts he has stated, nor why one exceptionable mode of proceeding should be adopted instead of another: I do not know that the administration of 1699 played any trick upon the House of Commons, or that if they did, why an enquiry into the transaction should constitute any part of our duty; if we cannot comply with the prayer of the petition, such an enquiry would answer no purpose; that we cannot, without involving our selves in consequences most carefully to be avoided, I again repeat; and what feeling heart, since this is the case, would wish to add insult to distress? Mr. Thomas Townshend: I flattered myself, Sir, that I should have seen three gentlemen here this day of the first reputation in their profession; I concluded that this assembly would have been honoured with the presence of Hawke, Saunders, and Keppel, and that in them the unfortunate petitioners would have found most powerful, persuasive, and able advocates. Nothing, I am certain, but a disability, from illness, to attend, would have prevented them from performing so material and interesting a part of their duty. The first I hear is indisposed at his country seat, the last is at Bath, and the other gentleman I had the honour to converse with this morning, being confined by the gout to his room, when he put this paper into my hands [Here he read the copy of an Order under the French king's hand, for encreasing the stipends of his naval captains, and containing the reasons which induced him thereto.] That this was not a bare temporary testimony of his regard for so respectable a corps, I am well informed from the same honourable 2 captains, who have no means of subsistence except their half pay, are under the greatest difficulties to provide for their support when out of employment. That the twenty senior captains of the navy, intitled to half pay, now receive 10s. each; the next thirty, 8s.; the next forty, 6s.; the next fifty, 5s.; and all the junior captains, without distinction, only 4s. each a day. On which allowance of 4s. the said junior captains may probably remain fifteen, or a great number of years, before they obtain a place on the 5s. list; whilst their greatly inferior officers, the captains of marines, enjoy a half pay of 5s. a day, from the time they are advanced to that rank in the same profession. authority; that, in consequence of this order, a provision of 3,000 livres, equal to about 1357. English money, was established for such of his naval captains as shall not be in actual service. Much has been said by the noble lord on the opposite bench, concerning the danger of the precedent, should the proposed addition take place. What, then, are we indiscriminately to shut our doors against applications from all quarters, and on all accounts? If persons, or whole bodies of men, whose claims are unquestionable, upon the most cogent and public ground, come to solicit our assistance, are we to refuse them any relief, or even a hearing, because others of inferior pretensions, or of less merit, may follow them? But, say the opposers of the motion, we are sufficiently convinced of the justice of the claim, we acknowledge the deserts of the petitioners; but let our inclinations to serve them be ever so sincere, we have it not in our power. Away with such trifling evasions! Is a sum of 5,000. of such consequence? No! act like men; the justice of the grant is not denied; the the sum demanded is small, it will be time enough to plead the impropriety of the demand, and the inability to comply with it, when the contingency happens. that here presen el. Mr. Welbore Ellis spoke on the same side with lord North; and Mr. Mackworth, lord John Cavendish, Mr. Boscawen and Mr. Hawke, both sons of the admirals, and Mr. Dowdeswell, spoke on the other side. The House then divided. The Yeas went forth: YEAS A NOES Tellers. Lord Howe 154 45 That the half pay to the captains of the navy, being regulated by that part only of their sea pay, called their personal pay, is not a moiety of the whole pay provided for them when in actual service. That his majesty king Charles the 2nd, did, in 1674, direct a provision of half pay, the first time granted to the captains of the navy, to be made for those who had commanded ships of the first and second rate in time of peace," equal to the value of half the pay usually allowed by his main time of service to commanders and cap. tains of like quality." That king James the 2nd, making farther alterations in the establishment of the navy, did, in 1686, order an allowance of table money to be made, in addition, and nearly equal, to the then pay of the captains in the different classes, according to the rate of the ships they respectively commanded. And though he promised them other encouragement, it does not appear to your committee that he made any provision for their support on shore; but that, in consequence of such allow So it was resolved in the affirmative, and ance of table money, he cancelled several a Committee was appointed. REPORT OF THE COMMONS' COMMITTEE RELATIVE TO THE PAY OF CAPTAINS OF THE NAVY.] March 5. Lord Howe reported from the Committee, to whom the Petition of the captains of his Majesty's navy, was referred, That the Committee had examined the matter of the said petition; and had directed him to report the same, as it appeared to them, to the House; and he read the Report in his place; which was as follows: Your Committee find, that by the deficiency of the appointments and provision made in that respect, many of the junior perquisites they before enjoyed. That the allowance of table money ending with the reign of that prince, his successor king William the 3d, was pleased, in the year 1693, to establish, in place thereof, an allowance of double pay to captains of ships of the first, second, third, fourth, fifth, and sixth, rates, whilst on service; and half the amount of such pay to captains of first, second, third, fourth, and fifth rates, in order (as the establishment expresses) "for their more comfortable support and maintenance whilst on shore." That the fund provided for the establishment of such increased sea and half | had an increase made to his pay of 12, 14, or 16s. per day, in lieu of the reduction of 1700, while the captain of the fifth or sixth rate was obliged to put up with a compensation of perhaps the fourth or fifth part of that allowance. His lordship then moved, That an addition of 2s. per day be made to the full pay of captains of the navy serving in fifth and sixth rates, according to the tenor of the Report. pay ending with the war, his said majesty king William was pleased to order another scheme of pay for the officers of the fleet to be prepared; and the same being adopted by this House, in the subsequent year 1700, in part of the plan for the reduction of the naval expences, then under consideration, the said double pay, and encreased half pay, were reduced one third in amount to those officers respectively: whereby it appears to your committee, that, notwithstanding the assurances given for the encouragement of those officers during the war, on the supposed certain enjoyment of an adequate provision for their support in time of peace, they were not only disappointed thereof, to save an inconsiderable expence in the estimate of the half pay, as stated in your Journals; but likewise, that in place of the allowance of half pay, provided for 152 captains in the several classes, as before mentioned, comprehending nearly the whole number of captains then on the lists, the establishment of half pay last instituted was confined to the 50 senior captains only, in total disregard of the royal declaration and engagements. That in 1715 a farther regulation of the half pay was made, on the plan of the sea pay established in 1700, and the benefit of half pay thereby extended to all the cap. tains of the navy without distinction, who should be, from time to time, out of employment. In which state the half pay of the captains of the navy hath continued, with little or no variation unto this time. Lord North seconded the motion. He said that when the Petition was first brought up, he opposed it chiefly on the idea that it would be a precedent for applications of a similar nature; that the event had proved he was not mistaken; that, however, as the House thought proper to differ from him, he cheerfully acqui esced in its opinion; that he thought the present Report, though it might perhaps be not quite so regular as he could wish, having stated matters not properly under the consideration of the committee, was, in his opinion, a very proper one; for, said he, by the addition we are now going to make to the half-pay of the junior captains, they will receive about 110l. per ann. though those serving in fifth and sixth rates and commanding sloops when on full pay, will receive no more than 2001. per ann. which on account of the trifling dif ference, and the necessary expences attending actual service, may be the means of preventing many offering themselves when they may be much wanted. He therefore concluded with wishing, that some method might be devised for obviating the irregularity of the Report, the expence incurred by it would not amount to more than 7,000l. per ann. and was become now evidently necessary to complete the original intention, that of putting the service upon a rational and equitable footing. As soon as the Report was read, Lord Howe remarked, that at the time that the regulation of 1700 took place, there was a provision made for 150 naval captains, which was very near the whole number then on the list; that by the one of 1715, which in the points now to be Captain Phipps said that this proposiconsidered, was formed on the same plan, tion would totally defeat, instead of for the junior captains were very considerable ward the intentions of the House; that losers, as the diminution of the personal whatever the distresses of the half-pay pay did not keep pace with the disadvan- navy captains might be, they felt much tages arising in other respects, for though more pleasure from the estimation they it was true that the establishment of 1700 found themselves held by the constituent caused a decrease of pay proportionably body of the nation and the people in geneto the rate of the ship, yet the captains of ral, than from any advantage or immediate the fifth and sixth rates suffered much conveniency that could accrue to them more than the senior ones; for instance, from an encrease of pay; that therefore, they had an allowance of servants in pro- on the terms now proposed, he was conportion to the number of men they com- fident they would much sooner forego manded, at the rate of four servants to every emolument they were about to re every hundred men; by this means, a cap-ceive by the preceding part of the Report, tain of a first or second rate might have than receive it clogged, as it must be, by |