J.

further consideration the Affairs of the East India Company, Mr. Bacon in the chair, the Petition presented by the East India Company on the 3rd instant being read,

Lord North said:

application of such clear revenues and profits to the purpose aforesaid, and for thereby effecting the more speedy discharge of the debts of the said Company."

All I mean, Sir, in these resolutions, is, the security of the creditors and the proprietors; for such reports have gone abroad, of the designs of the Company to put off the payment of their debts, as to render it a serious consideration: it has been said that they have been informed by their lawyers, that they can delay paying the Bank for a year and a half, by legal practices: I hope such will never be attempted to be put in execution; but, Sir, the Company's course of payment must be very different; the words of the resolution I have read, tie them down only to an observance of common justice and those rules and principles of payment which I believe were always observed by the Company when their affairs were in common order. As to the second resolution, it is merely an enforcement of the first.

Mr. Dempster. I must beg leave, Mr. Speaker, to offer one remark on a some thing which the noble lord let fall. That after the usual out-goings, &c. are paid, the Company is to pay her debts due, when demanded: does the noble lord un

Mr. Bacon; the present situation of our enquiry into the affairs of the East India Company renders it necessary to take notice of those principles and arguments upon which the petition before us depends. I mean, Sir, to explain myself upon this matter in the most candid manner I am able; and I do assure the advocates for the India Company, that in whatever stage of this business I shall be found, I shall on no occasion have any other idea than the advancement of the interests of the public and of the Company, mutually. It has been matter of debate in the court of directors, and the general court, whether to accept, or reject the loan of 1,400,000l. from government; and we have now before us a petition complaining of the terms annexed to that loan: it turns upon restraining the dividend to 6 per cent.; upon the division of the territorial revenue; and upon the appropriation of the fourth, which is left to the Company. It is upon these points, Sir, that we are given to understand the Com-derstand by out-goings, the dividendpany will not accept the proffered loan of 1,400,000l. I am very sorry to find any opposition in the Company to terms which are so much in favour of the security and stability of their own credit; however, Sir, I have two resolutions to move upon this occasion, on which I must observe, that I should be sorry to have them understood as the least in the stile of menace to the Company; on the contrary, I have not the least resentment at any thing that has passed. It would be improper, Sir: and the reflections that have been made are unjust. The Resolutions are as follow: 1. That the clear revenues and profits of the East India Company, after the current payments of interest, and other outgoings, charges, and expences, of the said Company, shall have been thereout allowed and deducted, ought, from time to time, to be applied, in the first place, to the discharge of such debts as, being due and payable at the time, shall be demanded by the respective creditors. 2. That, in the present situation of the East India Company, it will be highly expedient, that some provision be made by parliament, for more effectually securing the

that is a reasonable and honest dividend on their capital; for instance, 6 per cent. or does he mean that the payment of the debts is to precede such or any dividend? And another circumstance upon which I wish the noble lord would satisfy us in the demand of government upon the Com pany, for repayment of the loan of 1,400,000l. in case it is accepted—is this creditor to be an importunate one, and to precede a reasonable dividend?

Lord North. Certainly, Mr. Bacon, I do not mean in any case to exclude a just and reasonable dividend for that, Sir, would be to act contrary to all the princi ples of commerce by companies; all that is expressed or implied in the resolutions ! have moved, is to keep the Company, in the present case, to those rules which I believe were always her guide in other cases; and to prevent any hasty and unjust conduct towards her creditors, in or der to escape her present difficulties, with out accepting the loan from the public. As to the repayment of the loan itself preventing the dividend, the terms of the former resolutions, precisely explain it, for there a dividend of 6 per cent. is ex

pressly allowed till the repayment of the | the article of contingent expences in fu1,400,000/.

Mr. Dempster. If the noble lord's resolutions go no further, I have no doubt but they will be acceptable to the proprietors in general, as they express nothing more than what I am clear the Company mean to perform.

Governor Johnstone. Mr. Bacon, it is very evident from what the noble lord has said, that these resolutions which he has moved, are in consequence of the supposition drawn from the petition before us, that if the conditions annexed to the offer of the loan of 1,400,000l. are adhered to, the Company will not accept it; and this view of the matter renders it necessary for me to explain to the House the points wherein the difference lies, and which the Company thinks very hard upon them. Sir, the first article of difference is, that restraining them to a dividend of 6 per cent. whereas they think 8 per cent. would be perfectly reasonable, and absolutely fair to all parties, and to every in

terest.

ture. It has been remarked, Sir, that during that period we run 800,000l. in debt; now here, Sir, I have made out 700,000l. of it besides the extras I mentioned before: surely from this account we may justly state the commercial profits at 8 per cent. But, Sir, why are we not to take into our view the superiority of our present state in India, to what it was in that period; a superiority so great, and affecting our trade so much, that there is not a shadow of probability of the commercial profits not being considerably longer; in such circumstances to reduce the dividend to no more than 6 per cent. the Company think very hard.

In the next place, Sir, they differ with the noble lord upon the division of the revenue of the territorial acquisitions; instead of the public taking three fourths, they think half would have been fully sufficient. Upon this point I am not strenuous, because I think the government had better take the three fourths, and then let the Company alone, than only take half, or even a quarter, and foist management upon them. The next point of difference is the application of the fourth remaining to the Company; upon this head the noble lord was so guarded-so cautious in his expressions-and so fortified in what he said the day when he moved those resolutions, that I know not whether the noble lord, as it has since been said, will insist upon that article; but if it is in

The noble lord asserted, that his reaBons for fixing it at 6 per cent. was the presumptive proof given by your committees, that that was as high as could be afforded; for that though 8 per cent. had been divided for many years, yet it never appeared that the commercial profits of the trade amounted to 8 per cent. In answer to this, Sir, I shall observe, that there are many reasons to suppose the actual dividend of 8 per cent. was a just assisted on, the directors, the proprietors, well as a nominal one, and such as the commercial profits of the Company would well allow; for let it be considered, that in that period in which the dividend was so stated by the secret committee, there were expences beyond the usual line, and such as there is not the least reason to suppose will come again.

For instance, Sir, there was the 400,000l. paid to government in the subscription of the 3,200,000l. lent to the public; there were the losses of Fort St. George, Fort St. David's, and two expensive wars, such as we are not to look to again, the loss of a complete investment of 300,000l. two sums alone amounting to 700,000l. besides the expences of wars, which I think might be reckoned, because they lead so strongly to the territorial acquisition which government now claims; and besides the sum of 200,000l. paid for the renewal of their charter, which I do not take in, as it may be said to come under

myself, and, I believe, the whole world will equally condemn it as arbitrary, unjust, and breaking the absolute chartered rights of a free people: I think it the severest stroke that ever despotism offered to a free company.

The noble lord seems to have had bad information in certain points; and it is the misfortune of ministers, that those men who make it their business to be talebearers, are seldom men of integrity; for such will not undertake such an office. The noble lord seems to have had wrong intelligence of the conduct of general courts; I do declare that they have been, wherever I have been present, very decent and orderly; and never wanting in respect to the noble lord-ever speaking of his character in terms of respect, until the new Bill for regulating the Company was read to them-then, indeed, they were very indecent and disorderly, thinking some of the terms of it highly injurious to

Lord North said:

their rights; and I shall observe for my- | tablishing certain Regulations, for the self, that I think the appointment of a go- better Management of the Affairs of the vernor general, council, and judges in the East India Company, as well in India crown, in the manner set forth in the Bill, as in Europe." On moving that it be is at one stroke annihilating the Company, read a first time, and transferring the monopoly to the crown, equally unjust to the Company, and ruinous to the nation; the crown by this will gain such an increase of wealth and power as she never gained yet; and if the Bill passes, this acquisition will be found fatal to liberty.

I would say one word respecting the conduct of the direction; they have acted very wrong to be sure, and had they managed as they might, I do admit that the 400,000l. a year paid to government, and even more, might have been well paid, and in continuance; but, Sir, they were deceived by a noble lord who has been the object lately of much eulogium in this House; he wrote home that their affairs were fixed on such a foundation, that even hypocrisy could not introduce corruption —and advised them to send for the round sum of a million; the noble lord was deceived himself, for he could not possibly have any private interest in making such representations: but, Sir, the directors are somewhat to be excused in their conduct, when they acted in consequence of such representations.

Sir; the interposition of parliament in the affairs of the East India Company, though it has occasioned something of a turn of proceedings in the general courts which I think unwarrantable, has met, Sir, with the approbation of all moderate, well-informed and considerate persons. I have had the honour of proposing a series of Resolutions drawn up with a view of regulating the Company's affairs in future: from these resolutions I have framed a Bill, which I now beg the permission of the House to bring in. Since these matters have been under consideration, the right and motives of parliament have been. strangely questioned in the whole business, much of which I apprehend has been owing to the jobbers in the Alley. Restraining the dividends in different periods, as it prevents the fatal effects of gambling in India stock, so it must certainly meet with all possible opposition from a set of men whose greatest profits are in propor tion to the fluctuation of the stocks; whereas this Bill is meant to prevent As to the present state of the Company, fluctuation. The public has been much I am clear they can extricate themselves amused with projects for the Company's without accepting the loan from parlia- raising the sum of a million and a half, ment; they have creditors certainly, but without accepting what they before apnot clamorous ones; the bill-holders will plied for to government. Sir, this de be induced to delay as they ought, consi- mands two considerations; first, relative dering their gains; and the Bank is con- to the possibility of the Company's fairly ducted with so much justice and integrity, executing such a scheme-while they are and meaning strongly to befriend the daily submitting themselves to pay great Company, as I judge from the conversa- interest for their actual debts to govern tions I have had with some of the direc- ment, on default of payment of customs tors, and particularly Mr. Paine, who I and excises; we may easily conceive that really believe is a man of as great honour in any situation schemers and projectors and worth, as any I know,-that I think will appear who can promise wonders upon the Company has not much reason to fear paper, that are wild and impracticable. from any undue demands-hasty ones-Can the Company suppose the legislature from the Bank. The Treasury indeed may be importunate-we admit that.

Lord North answered the governor pretty clearly in some parts of his speech, but in general lightly touching the more essential points.

The Resolutions were then agreed to.

Lord North's Speech on presenting the East India Company's Regulation Bill.] May 18. Lord North presented to the House, according to order, a Bill" for es

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to be drawn aside from their important purpose by such idle imaginations? Next, Sir, I must suppose the case-If the Company does not find it expedient to borrow of government, can it possibly be sup posed that therefore the interference of parliament in their affairs is to be dropped? Is this to be imagined? It is impossible, Sir, but the candid part of the Company must be sensible, and acknowledge, that the right, duty, and propriety of the state to interpose in this case is essentially ne