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it up only as a last resort; or whether, on the contrary, it would operate the other way, to make the application of a man who wanted a rate reduced, first to the Commission as a matter of form, as something he had got to go through with as a condition precedent to getting at the Legislature, and then to have the real application made to the Legislature upon the pretext that an application of the Public Service Commission was without avail. If this provision found in line 9-or beginning in line 12 at the foot of page 1 and ending in line 7, at the top of page 2, if the provision which reads as follows, "Except that the legislature shall not enact any law prescribing a rate or charge or a standard of service, equipment or operation for any public utility, until after it has received from one of the commissions a report thereon, made after investigation and hearing, at which interested parties may introduce evidence or until after the expiration of such time following requests for such report as may be prescribed by law" if that provision is going to result in rate matters being brought more frequently to the attention of the Legislature, than they are now and in making, in effect, the Legislature simply an ordinary, every-day court of appeals from the commissions, then I think it would be unwise. But your committee gave it careful consideration. We had the experience of legislators, several members of the Committee having served in the Legislature Senator Blauvelt and Senator Foley, in particular, having served there in connection with these problems it was deemed by those gentlemen a wise and a salutary provision, and if their judgment, which was deferred to by the committee and, I think it fair to say, unanimously, or nearly so, is correct, it would not operate in that manner, but on the other hand would operate to bring the Legislature and the public service commissions into a harmony of relation and into a position of mutual understanding and mutual desire to accomplish the wise thing. If, on the contrary, it should result in a flood of applications to the Legislature, it would be unwise. Since the year 1907 the Legislature has enacted very few laws indeed affecting the rate or the service or the issue of securities of public service corporations. On the whole, they have left the matter to the commission and I believe there are only one or two instances in which matters that properly would be considered as within the jurisdiction of the commission have been finally acted upon by the Legislature in disregard of the commission.

Mr. Wickersham - In order that we may follow the order of business adopted last night in the Convention in voting upon the matter then under discussion, I move that the Committee do now arise, report progress and ask leave to sit again after the disposition of that matter.

The Chairman - You have heard the motion. All those in favor signify by saying Aye, contrary No. The motion is carried and the Committee will now rise.

(The President resumes the chair.)

The President - - The Convention will come to order.

Mr. Steinbrink Mr. President, the Committee of the Whole directs me to report that they have had under consideration General Order No. 38, the special order of the day, that it reports progress and asks leave to sit again after recess.

The President-Do I understand, Mr. Wickersham, that the motion was, after the Judiciary Article had been disposed of? Mr. Wickersham-No, Mr. President, after the disposition of the special order set for twelve o'clock this morning.

The President-The motion is on granting leave to sit again. All in favor of granting leave to sit again say Ave, contrary No. The ayes have it and the leave is granted. Under the resolution of the Convention the question of agreeing with the report of the Committee of the Whole upon the proposed amendment, general order No. 25, is now the subject matter for consideration.

Mr. Barnes-Last night I was in hope that the Convention would be to-day practically complete, that a vote might be taken upon this matter by a call of ayes and nays. Upon consideration. I am not going to ask for a call of the ayes and nays upon this matter for the reason that, when the Committee on Bill of Rights makes its report, this entire matter will again come up for discussion, and I trust at that time that the matured deliberation of the Convention will be more in line with the proposal which was defeated in the Committee of the Whole last evening. A more careful, a more thorough understanding of this question, I think, might possibly lead this Convention, a majority of whom are Republicans by political faith, to realize the situation as I think I see it and, I believe, correctly. Therefore, I will not ask for ayes and nays at this time, but will be content with the usual call, and naturally accept the verdict of the Convention.

Mr. Wickersham Mr. President, I ask for the ayes and nays. The President-The ayes and nays are demanded. Is the call seconded?

Mr. M. J. O'Brien --- Mr. President, in connection with this subject, I agree with what Mr. Barnes has said. I trust that this motion for the ayes and nays will not prevail. We have had a meeting of the Bill of Rights Committee this morning and there are provisions in that first article which bear directly on this subject, and our report is not before the Convention, and I think that the gentlemen here, the members and delegates, should have the benefit of the report of the Bill of Rights Committee, but, however, I only make it as a suggestion, agreeing as I do with the

request of Mr. Barnes, and I hope the demand for the call of ayes and nays will not prevail.

Mr. Curran Mr. President, do I understand from the speaker that the Committee on Bill of Rights had a committee meeting this morning?

Mr. M. J. O'Brien Mr. President, the sub-committee did; the sub-committee to whom was referred the question of putting in form the report of the committee have had a meeting with a view to reporting back to the full committee so that that committee can then report to this Convention.

Mr. Curran The full committee has not had a meeting?

Mr. M. J. O'Brien - No, the full committee has not had a meeting; it is a sub-committee.

The President - Under the rules when a demand for the ayes and nays is made, it may be seconded by fifteen members of the Convention rising and standing in their places until they are counted. If so seconded, the ayes and noes must be taken; otherwise not. There is a sufficient number up.

The Secretary will call the roll of agreeing to the report of the Committee of the Whole, striking out the enacting clause of the Proposed Amendment, General Order No. 25.

Those who voted in the affirmative were: Messrs. Ahearn, Aiken, F. C. Allen, Angell, Baldwin, Bannister, Barrett, Bayes, Beach, Bell, Bernstein, Brackett, Burkan, Byrne, Clinton, Cobb, Curran, Dahm, Daly, Dennis, Deyo, Dick, Donnelly, Donovan, Dow, Dunlap, Eisner, Endres, Eppig, Fobes, Foley, Franchot, Green, Greff, Griffin, Haffen, Harawitz, Johnson, Jones, Kirk, Landreth, Leary, Leitner, Lincoln, Lindsay, Low, McLean, Mandeville, F. Martin, L. M. Martin, Marshall, C. Nicoll, D. Nicoll, Nixon, J. L. O'Brian, M. J. O'Brien, O'Connor, Parker, Parmenter, Parsons, Pelletreau, S. K. Phillips, Reeves, Rhees, Sanders, M. Saxe, Schurman, Sears, Sharpe, Shipman, Slevin, A. E. Smith, E. N. Smith, R. B. Smith, T. F. Smith, Stanchfield, Standart, Stimson, Tuck, Unger, Van Ness, Wagner, Ward, Waterman, Weed, Westwood, C. J. White, Wickersham, Wiggins, Williams, Winslow, F. L. Young, President.

Those who voted in the negative were: Adams, Austin, Barnes, Berri, Betts, Blauvelt, Bockes, Brenner, Bunce, Buxbaum, Clearwater, Cullinan, Doughty, Dunmore, Dykman, Ford, Hale, Heaton, Hinman, Kirby, Latson, Law, Leggett, Lennox, Linde, McKean, Mathewson, Meigs, Mereness, Nye, Olcott, Potter. Quigg, Ryder, Sargent, J. G. Saxe, Sheehan, Steinbrink, Stowell, Tierney, Vanderlyn, Wadsworth, R. E. Weber, Whipple, C. HII. Young.

When Mr. Bernstein's name was called he said: Mr. Chairman, I desire to be excused from voting and briefly state my

reasons. I am opposed to this proposal for the reason that while in terms it purports to be a declaration for equality, its effect, if adopted, would be to work the greatest kinds of inequality. We may not agree as to whether men are or are not born equal, but it does not require a Lincoln to tell us that men do not stay equal. The conditions of birth and surroundings create inequalities. The ravages of time, of age, of disease, create inequalities. Mental defects and understandings create inequalities and lastly an economic condition that has grown up through the centuries has created inequalities. These inequalities are what might be termed natural inequalties, natural to the extent that they are beyond our control; and the mass of legislation that we have come to know as social welfare legislation is the policy that has been adopted not only by this State, but by every modern state and by every civilized nation in order to equalize the condition of inequality that exists through these natural conditions. In other words this mass of legislation, these laws for pensions, for workmen's compensation, health laws, tenement house law, factory laws, have been enacted and are being enacted in order to level, as it were, the handicap under which certain classes and certain peoples naturally suffer. For that reason, Mr. President, it must appear as clear as it can that if you remove the right of the Legislature to enact these laws you are going to establish the natural inequality to such an extent that I fear that it may overburden our entire social system and lead to discontent and finally revolution. For that reason, Mr. President, I oppose this proposal. I desire to withdraw my request and vote Ave.

When Mr. Byrne's name was called he said: Mr. President, I ask to be excused from voting and would briefly state my reasons. If as I listened last night to the splendid address of Judge Clearwater, my mind was for a moment in doubt as to the meaning of that amendment, that doubt was dissipated this morning when I read in the edition of the New York Times a statement over the signature of Mr. Barnes, in which he said, besides criticising the editorial of yesterday or the day before, that the object - I am speaking substantially, now.-- that the object of this amendment. was to prevent in the future pensions for old or young; sickness insurance, and things of that character. And understanding that to be the meaning of the amendment, I am opposed to it. It has been said by some that this is a progressive amendment. It is said to be an amendment which enunciates the spirit of the age. It does not enunciate the spirit of the age; it is opposed to that spirit which has gradually crept into the hearts of men, that spirit. which was enunciated and thundered from Mount Sinai in the first commandment, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

That spirit has gradually if imperceptibly been working amongst men and I realize, gentlemen, when I say this thing, that it is not a subject usually discussed. It is not a thought that has laid long in the mind, that is, the principle, that is the principle of that that is in these amendments which give to old people and young pensions. I believe that this spirit is the proper spirit, that the State in these matters is like an organism. It is like a body. When a weak part of the body, either through sickness or injury, is affected, we take care of that portion and the individuals of the State are all members of the body and to these weak members it is our duty to give protection. It is our duty to aid them at that time, not alone for them but for the health of the State itself. I withdraw my request to be excused and vote Aye.

When Mr. Dick's name was called he said: Mr. President, I desire to be excused from voting and shall briefly state my reasons. We may believe in the theory and principle involved in this proposition but embarrassment arises in its application. The Judiciary Committee has reported an article which provides that the Legislature shall enact a civil practice act. If the amendment reported by the Committee on Legislative Powers and the amendment reported by the Judiciary Committee should find places in our Constitution, there would have to be omitted from the civil practice act the privileges and immunities extended by our code of civil procedure to minors, women, lunatics and paupers, because such immunities and privileges would be unconstitutional. For example, Section 458 provides that a person without means who desires to prosecute an action may petition the court for leave to sue as a poor person and if such leave be granted, the court shall assign counsel to represent him without expense to him—a privilege. The plaintiff need not pay any fee to any officer and costs shall not be awarded against him if he be defeated,- immunities extended to him by our code. We will turn now to the criminal law. If an officer in the performance of duty, making an arrest, kills a man, the homicide may be justifiable a privilege and immunity. Hereafter such privileges and immunities cannot be granted if this proposition be written into our fundamental law. The gentleman from Greene was asked by the gentleman from Tompkins at what particular evil this amendment was aimed, and he stated frankly that he did not know. Now let us aim at something definite. If we believe that preferences under the civil service should not be extended by the Legislature, let us insert in the civil service provision of the Constitution a provision that no further preferences in appointment, promotion or retention shall be created. instead of providing against such creation by a general provision

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