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into the Constitution. I inferred he might be led to support the Wickersham amendment. In my opinion we should go further and strike out the enacting clause and leave the Legislature entirely free. Mr. Chairman, one word further. I have never served in the Legislature of this State. I have never had occasion to advocate the passage or the defeat of any particular measure by the Legislature. I sat in the Committee on Governor and Other State Officers rather diligently and I heard a great deal of testimony, and I want to say to you if you are going to take the record of the Legislature as a guide in reference to the Public Service Commissions of this State, they have justified your confidence. We should leave them, leave them at least five or ten years more, leave them to work out these problems. They are doing it very well.

Mr. Mandeville- Up to this time in this Convention I have been listening as have most of the other members of the Convention, to the debates that have gone on, and I have had as a general rule and policy the idea that it was wise for the ordinary member of this Convention to respect the work, the experience and the efforts that have been put out by the Committee having in charge the particular measure. I would much rather remain silent than to speak, because I do not enjoy it, but as a member of this Committee, I think it my duty and my privilege to stand by the report of the Committee. In the first place, because this subject, which is under our attention, concerns and is of the utmost importance to the public of this State, to the capital invested in this State in these utilities, to the laborers who are employed by these utilities, and to the general financial system of this State.

The magnitude of the utility enterprises in this State is not understood by all of us, and I did not understand it, nor I suppose I do not now, except in reading a special bulletin of the bureau of the Census Department of the United States I find that of all the wealth of the United States, one-sixth is invested in public. utility enterprises. And in the words of that bulletin it is said: The entire group of the interests has played such a conspicuous part in the financial history of this country for the last twenty-five years. The gross earnings of the electric light corporations have increased over 100 per cent. The steam railroads, 65 per cent. The electric railways 70 per cent. The capital invested in transportation and in inter-communicating companies within the past two years has increased at the rate of six hundred million dollars per year. Utility companies are the largest taxpayers and at the present time more money is invested in public utilities than in any other single class of financial enterprises. Now, during the same time that this increase has taken place, the number of employees

have increased 175 per cent. Their compensation has increased 100 per cent. So that this subject reaches very closely into the affairs of every one of the people of this State. The regulation of public utility enterprises is the only bulwark that we have, the only thing that we have erected against the growing sentiment for municipal ownership which we all know from experience is a disaster to the municipalities which undertake it. The people of the State of New York have invited capital to undertake the management of certain functions for the good of the whole State. The men who have furnished that capital, and they are not one man or ope set of men, but that capital comes from the small investor. It is the peculiar field of the ordinary small investor throughout the State to buy public utility bonds, because since 1907 they have been under the supervision of the State, because this industry is peculiarly under their own consideration, they see it, they know something about it, and now the ordinary lawyer who is asked for advice by his client as to how he may get a security which will be reasonable, he is almost limited, under the present conditions, to saying buy some underlying securities of a public utility company that is under the control of the departments that have been created by the State to control them in the interests of all of the State. Now, with the exception of the amendments suggested by General Wickersham, which I think has great merit, that there may be a necessity to abolish one commission, or to change that, I think that the efforts of this committee deserve the careful attention of this Convention, and in so far as may be reserving the right of each to his own judgment upon the matter, I should say that we have the advantage, perhaps, of asking you as seventeen men, sixteen, praetically, and practically all agreed upon the important function and the important element of our report.

On our committee were men of such ability and legislative experience as Senator Foley and Senator Blauvelt. On our committee were men who have had experience both down-State and up-State in the matter of utilities. We went carefully over all the sugges tions that have been suggested to us and we reached the important conclusion that this was a subject that ought to be put in and recognized in the Constitution that we are now making for submission to the people.

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Mr. Wickersham - Unless it interferes unduly, I am going to move now that the committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again, in order that the Convention may receive a report. move that the Committee do now rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again after the recess.

The Chairman You have heard the motion that the Committee do now rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again. All

those in favor please signify by saying Aye, contrary No. The motion is carried. (The President resumes the Chair.)

The President - The Convention will please come to order.

Mr. Steinbrink The Committee of the Whole has continued its consideration of General Order No. 38, directed me to report. progress and ask leave to sit again after the recess.

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The President - The question is on granting leave to sit again. All those in favor say Aye, contrary No. The Ayes have it and the leave is granted.

Mr. Wickersham Mr. President, I understand that the Committee on Revision and Engrossment has a report to submit. Judge Rodenbeck was here a moment ago and I expect him to be here in a moment.

Mr. Deyo I ask unanimous consent at this time, that the Committee on Bill of Rights be discharged from further consideration of print No. 391, introductory No. 387, for the purpose of amendment; that that bill be amended as indicated and referred back to the committee.

The President - All in favor of the motion say Aye, contrary No.

Mr. Marshall Mr. President, I did not hear the motion. I understand that it relates to the Committee on Bill of Rights.

The President The motion is to discharge the Committee on Bill of Rights from further consideration of a Proposed Amendment for the purpose of amendment and recommittal.

Mr. Marshall-I have no objection to that.

The President The motion is carried.

Mr. Rodenbeck Mr. President, I submit the following report from the Committee on Revision and Engrossment.

The Secretary Mr. Rodenbeck, from the Committee on Revision and Engrossment to which was referred Proposed Constitutional Amendment introduced by the Committee on Legislative Organization, number 741, introductory No. 693, entitled, Proposed Constitutional Amendment, to amend Section 6 of Article III, of the Constitution, in relation to compensation and expenses of members of the Legislature; also, Proposed Constitutional Amendment, introduced by the Committee on State Finances, Revenues and Expenses, No. 784, introductory No. 705, entitled Proposed Constitutional Amendment, to amend Sections 2, 4, 5. 11 and 12 of Article VII of the Constitution, in relation to debts contracted by the State; also, Proposed Constitutional Amendment, introduced by the Committee on Finance, No. 809, introductory No. 709, entitled Proposed Constitutional Amendment, to amend the Constitution by inserting a new article in relation to the budget and to amend Section 21 of Article III of the Con

stitution, reports the same as having been examined, found correct and correctly engrossed.

The President The question is on agreeing to the report of the Committee on Revision and Engrossment. All those in favor say Aye, contrary No. The motion is agreed to and the amendments as reported go upon the calendar.

The President - The hour of half past five having arrived, the Convention will stand in recess until half-past eight this evening. Whereupon at 5:30 p. m. the Convention took a recess until 8:30 p. m., the same day.

AFTER RECESS-8:30 P. M.

The President - The Convention will come to order.

Mr. Lincoln Mr. Chairman, the Committee on Taxation has asked me to make a slight correction in its bill relating to taxation, which was adopted a few days ago, and concerning an amendment proposed by me which was incorporated in the bill. This correction is made to prevent possible confusion, and the chairman of the Committee on Revision informs me that it would be desirable. to have this correction made this evening so that the bill may be printed and in the hands of that Committee to-morrow. For that reason I ask unanimous consent to make this motion at this time. The President Is there objection? The Chair hears none and the motion is before the Convention.

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The Secretary - Mr. Lincoln moves that the Committee on Revision and Engrossment be discharged from further consideration of Proposed Constitutional Amendment No. 806, introductory No. 679, being the new article in relation to taxation, that the same be amended by inserting on page 2, line 15, after the word "town" the following, "except a city," and further that said proposal be recommitted to the Committee on Revision and Engrossment, with instructions to report forthwith as amended.

Mr. Wickersham-A point of order, Mr. President; I want to raise a point of order there, whether or not it is in order to move to discharge the Committee on Revision and Engrossment. It seems to me that is a question of procedure. Reference to the Committee on Revision and Engrossment really is for a clerical purpose and the motion to discharge that Committee is not one of the motions recognized by the rules of this House.

Mr. Lincoln-Mr. President, I understand that has been the practice with relation to proposals, to make merely formal corrections in the Proposed Amendment in the hands of that Committee. That has been done on one or two other occasions.

Mr. M. Saxe-Mr. President, I might say that I conferred with the Committee on Revision and Engrossment in respect to

this matter and there was a little difference of opinion in that Committee as to whether it was a mere change of form or one of substance, and for that reason it was suggested that the motion should be made in Convention. The only purpose of it is to clear up the question of the Lincoln amendment with respect to cities, as cities are now tax districts and there is no necessity for having a referendum in the case of a city and the question might arise if it was passed in this form whether or not the city of New York — because that city happens to contain five counties would have to have a referendum in order to maintain itself as a tax district as at present constituted.

Mr. Wickersham Mr. President, I am not at all opposed to accomplishing what the gentleman desires to accomplish, but this is the second, only, of these motions. Some question has been raised as to the admissibility of the motion to discharge the Committee on Revision and Engrossment, which is merely a clerical Committee to examine and report as to the language whether the motion to discharge that Committee for the purpose of changing the measure is properly in order, and as to that I merely submit the question to the Chair.

Mr. M. Saxe Mr. President, it seems to me that where a matter is of as slight importance as this, it is the simplest way out of the difficulty. Otherwise, it will have to be reprinted as a report by the Committee and then amended on the order of third reading. All of that would be disposed of and the bill perfected by the method proposed. This really is not a change of substance.

Mr. Deyo If the contention of Delegate Wickersham is correet, then it follows as a necessary consequence that when a bill has gone into a committee of this Convention it is beyond the reach of the Convention itself. Every committee of this Convention is under the control of the Convention itself and any matter which is submitted to any committee may be recalled from that committee by the Convention which created it.

Mr. Brackett If the gentlemen will keep in mind that the original bill is the only bill that there is, and that, wherever the physical position of that bill is, your motion must be directed to that spot, I think that will clear up the whole situation. I believe this motion is a proper motion.

The President The Chair is inclined to think that, while there is nothing in the rules specifically on the subject, the presumption always must be in favor of the control of the Convention over its own bills. While there might be objection to an attempt. to reverse the action of the Committee of the Whole, provided a matter is within its province, after the report of that Committee had been agreed to by the Convention, the correction of clerical

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