A. I so understand.

Q. With the exception of that, attending those meetings has been your entire business as Secretary ad interim?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, has he ever asked you to know where the troops were about Washington?

A. He never did.

Q. Or whether there had been any changes of troops?

A. He never did.

Q. You tell us you attended a masquerade ball that night. Did you keep the President advised of where you were?

A. I think not-no.

Q. You are pretty sure about that?

A. He might have known I was going to the masquerade ball. I had procured tickets for my children some days before.

Q. Did the President in any of the interviews with you, his cabinet counsellor, his constitutional adviser, ever suggest to you that he had not removed Mr. Stanton ?

A. Never. He always said that Mr. Stanton was out of office; he took that ground at once.

Q. Were you not somewhat surprised when you heard Mr. Curtis say here yesterday that he was not removed?

A. I do not know anything about that.

Q. Did he ever tell you that you were not appointed?

A. No.

Q. Have you not always known you were appointed?

A. Yes.

Q. Has he not over and over again told you you were appointed?

A. No; not over and over again.

Q. But two or three times?

A. I do not know that it has come up at all. He may have done it two or three times.

Q. He never suggested to you from the day he gave you that paper, when he was going to support the Constitution and the laws, down to to-day, he never intimated to you that you were not appointed regularly as Secretary of War, did he?

Q. Nor none of the cabinet, his constitutional advisers, say, "You are not appointed, general; you are only here by sufferance?" None of them ever said that, did they?.

A. None of them ever said that to me.

Q. Tell us, if you can, what you meant when you told the President you were going to uphold the Constitution and the laws?

A. Why, to be governed by the Constitution and the laws made in pursuance thereof, of course.

Q. You were going to be governed by the Constitution and the laws made in pursuance thereof. Did you include in that the tenure-of-office bill?

A. Yes, sir; so far as it applied to me.

Q. You were going to uphold the Constitution and that particular law; you had that in your mind at the time, had you not?

A. Not particularly in my mind at the time.

Q. You did not make any exception of that?

A. No; I made no exception; you have got my language.

Q. Has not the President given you directions about other things than taking possession of the War Office?

A. He has told me on several occasions what he wanted. He wanted to get some nominations sent up here. They were on the Secretary's table, on Mr. Stanton's table.

Q. And he could not get them?

A. He did not get them.

Q. Well, he could not?

A. I do not say that.

Q. What did he tell you, whether he could or could not get them?

A. I do not know whether he could or could not. I could not get them. Q. And he could not, as far as you know?

A. I do not know that he could not.

Q. And he complained to you?

A. He did not complain to me, but he said that cases were lying over, and some of them military cases, that ought to be disposed of. I mentioned it to Mr. Stanton twice that the President wanted those nominations, and he said he would see to it. This was while I was acting as Adjutant General, not as Secretary of War.

By Mr. STANBERY:

Q. Did he send them to the President?

A. He did not, to my knowledge.

By Mr. Manager BUTLER :

Q. Now, at any other of these times, when he has given you directions, has he ever told you he was going to uphold the Constitution and the laws?

A. No; I think not.

Q. Did he ever tell you he was going to uphold the Constitution and the laws? A. That is the only time that conversation occurred between us.

Q. Can you give any reason why both of you should come to the conclusion that the Constitution and the laws wanted upholding about that time?

A. No.

Q. What had happened to the Constitution and the laws, or was about to happen, that required you both to uphold them?

A. I do not know that anything was about to happen.

Q. Well, what had happened?

A. Nothing had happened.

Q. Why did he so solemnly tell you there, upon this occasion, that he was going to uphold the Constitution and laws, and why did you say, "I will uphold the Constitution and laws ?"

A. Why, it was the most natural thing in the world. He made the remark

to me.

Q. Now, about Mr. Karsner, and I will not trouble you much further. Were you examined before the managers about Mr. Karsner's testimony?

A. It was read to me there.

Q. As taken down from his lips?

A I suppose so.

Q. Was it not substantially almost exactly as he gave it here?

A. I do not know how he gave it here exactly.

Q. Did not you hear him?

A. There was one point in it I did not agree to.

Q. Did you hear him give it here?

A. Partially. I could not hear all where I was sitting.

Q. As it was read over to you there, were you not asked in Karsner's presence if there was anything that he said that was not true?

A. The question was asked me and I answered yes.

Q. What did you say it was he said that was not true?

A. I think he testified here

Q. No; there ?

A. I do not know there. I am speaking now of a portion of the testimony here.

you

Q. You told me you did not hear here, and therefore I confine my question to what occurred before the managers. Keep your mind, if you can, to the time when you were before the not sit down before the managers Did managers. and there have Mr. Karsner's testimony read over to you in his presence? A. It was read over, but not at my instance at all. It was read to me, and I was asked if it was correct, and I said "Yes."

Q. You were asked if it were correct and you said "Yes." Did you object that any single word was not correct?

A. I did not object to any word. I objected to his manner.

Q. How could you see his manner on paper ?

A. You asked him to get up and show it.

Q. Then, after you got there, when that was read over to you, did you say, "I did not say kicking;' Karsner said 'kicking' to me." Did you say that? A. No; I did not.

Q. Then did you not say, when asked for any explanation, that it was playful; was not that the only explanation you gave?

A. I said it was playful on my part.

Q. Was not that the only explanation you gave before the managers?
A. I do not recollect; I suppose it was, though.

Q. Was not Mr. Karsner then called up and asked whether it appeared playful to him?

A. Yes; he was.

Q. And did not he testify to you that it was not playful at all, but that you seemed to be very earnest ?

A. Yes; he did.

Q. And did he not illustrate your earnestness by the way you brought yourself down?

A. That is one point where I say he was mistaken. He applied that to the time I said we would kick him out. He applied it to that, which was not the case. It was the third time he asked me to stand firm; then I straightened myself up in that way.

Q. And you think he applied it to the time you were to kick him out?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you object then that you yourself did not use the words "Kick him

out?"

A. No; I did not. I said it was in answer to a question from him. I have had time to think that matter over after I was called up there, and I have gone over the whole in my own mind after I got home.

Q. That was the 13th of March you were asked before us, was it not? Mr. EVARTS. Allow me to ask if you will allow us to have a copy of the testimony to which you are now referring Mr. Karsner's testimony before the

managers.

Mr. Manager BUTLER. With great pleasure. I gave it to Mr. Stanbery when Mr. Karsner was here.

Mr. SHERMAN. I was about to make a motion to adjourn.

Mr. Manager BUTLER. I am about through. I will be through in a minute. (To the witness.) Upon your reinstatement in office as Adjutant General did you address the clerks ?

A. I did make a short address to each section of them. I sent for the officers in charge and told them I would like to see the clerks.

Q. Was that within three days of the time you were appointed Secretary of War ad interim?

A. It was between the time I was reinstated as Adjutant General and the time I was appointed Secretary of War; I do not recollect what particular day. Mr. Manager BUTLER, (to the counsel for the respondent.) The witness is yours, gentlemen.

Mr. STANBERY. We will ask some questions.

Mr. HENDERSON. Mr. President, I move that the Senate sitting as a court do now adjourn.

The motion was agreed to; and the Senate sitting for the trial of the impeachment adjourned.

SATURDAY, April 11, 1868.

The Chief Justice of the United States entered the Senate chamber at 12 o'clock and five minutes p. m., and took the chair.

The usual proclamation having been made by the Sergeant-at-arms,

The managers of the impeachment on the part of the House of Representatives appeared and took the seats assigned them.

The counsel for the respondent also appeared and took their seats.

The presence of the House of Representatives was next announced, and the members of the House, as in Committee of the Whole, headed by Mr. E. B. Washburne, the chairman of that committee, and accompanied by the Speaker and clerk, entered the Senate chamber and were conducted to the seats provided for them.

The CHIEF JUSTICE. The Secretary will read the minutes of the last day's proceedings.

The Secretary read the journal of yesterday's proceedings of the Senate sitting for the trial of the impeachment.

The CHIEF JUSTICE. Gentlemen of counsel for the President, you will proceed with your evidence.

Mr. Manager BINGHAM. Mr. President, before the counsel for the accused proceed, I desire to say that the managers wish to move the Senate for such change of rule twenty-one of the proceedings in this trial as will allow the managers and the counsel for the President to be heard on the final argument, subject to the provision of the rule as it stands that the argument shall be opened and closed by the managers on the part of the House.

Mr. SHERMAN. I should like to have the proposition repeated. I could pot hear it distinctly.

The CHIEF JUSTICE. The honorable manager will please reduce his proposition to writing.

Mr. Manager BINGHAM. I will. [After writing the proposition.] Mr. President, I desire to read the motion as reduced to writing.

Mr. CONKLING. I beg to state that the voice of the manager is entirely inaudible here.

Mr. Manager BINGHAM. "The managers move the Senate to so amend rule twenty-one as to allow such of the managers as desire to be heard, and also such of the counsel for the President as desire to be heard, to speak on the final argument, subject to the provision of the rule that the final argument shall be opened and closed by the managers on the part of the House."

The CHIEF JUSTICE. Senators, it is moved by the managers on the part of the House of Representatives, that the twenty-first rule be so modified as to allow as many on the part of the managers and as many on the part of the

counsel for the President to be heard as may see fit to address the Senate in

the final argument.

Mr. POMEROY. Mr. President, as that is in the nature of a resolution, under our general rule it should lie over one day for consideration.

The CHIEF JUSTICE. The Chief Justice was about to observe that the proposition required some answer on the part of the Senate, and that it would be proper for some senator to make a motion in respect to it.

Mr. BUCKALEW. I move that the resolution be laid over for consideration until to-morrow.

The CHIEF JUSTICE. It goes over, of course, if there be objection.

Mr. EDMUNDS. I would inquire of the Chair whether the twenty-first rule does not now provide by its terms that this privilege may be extended to the managers and the counsel if the Senate so order; and I would therefore inquire whether any amendment of the rule be necessary if the Senate should desire to extend that privilege?

The CHIEF JUSTICE. Certainly not. It is competent for any senator to move such an order; but the Chair has yet heard no motion to that effect.

Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. Mr. President, I make the motion that the order be adopted. It of course is not necessary that it should lie over, as it is provided for in the rule that this order may be adopted.

Mr. POMEROY. I have no objection to taking the vote now, if it is desired. I do not care to have it lie over to another day.

The CHIEF JUSTICE. The senator from New Jersey will please reduce his order to writing.

Mr. SHERMAN. If it is in order I will move that the twenty-first rule be relaxed so as to allow three persons on each side to speak under the rule, instead .of two.

The CHIEF JUSTICE. That motion will be in order as an amendment to the order proposed by the senator from New Jersey.

Mr. SHERMAN. I withdraw it for the present to allow the vote to be taken on that.

The order proposed by Mr. Frelinghuysen having been reduced to writing and sent to the desk

The CHIEF JUSTICE. The Secretary will read the order proposed by the senator from New Jersey.

The Secretary read as follows:

Ordered, That as many of the managers and of the counsel for the respondent be permitted to speak on the final argument as shall choose to do so.

The CHIEF JUSTICE. That order will be considered now, unless objected to. Mr. HOWARD. Mr. President, I hope that order will be laid over until the next day's session.

The CHIEF JUSTICE. If objected to, it will lie over.

Mr. HOWARD. I object.

Mr. TRUMBULL. An objection does not carry it over, does it?

The CHIEF JUSTICE. The Chair thinks it does.

Mr. TRUMBULL. It does not change the rule. The rule provides for this very thing being done, if the Senate choose to allow it.

Mr. CONKLING. Mr. President, may I inquire under what rule of the Senate thus organized it is that this motion lies over upon the objection of a single senator?

The CHIEF JUSTICE. The Chief Justice, in conducting the business of the court, adopts for his general guidance the rules of the Senate sitting in legislative session as far as they are applicable. That is the ground of his decision. Mr. CON KLING. The reason for my inquiry was this: the very rule we are discussing provides that a certain thing shall happen "unless otherwise ordered;" and I supposed a motion otherwise to order was always in order.