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per acre for the various species on hardwood land:

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Applying four well-known methods of regulating the cut which time does not permit me to go into here, an average annual cut of 228.5 bd. ft. per acre is indicated and a cutting cycle (period of return between cuts) of about 40 years, so that, when the acre cut conservatively in 1915 is cut over again in 1955 it will yield perhaps 9,140 feet board measure which compares well with the 10,219 feet b. m. removed at the first cut.

It should be remembered that these figures are based on growth in virgin forests which at present shows hard maple to require 167 years to reach 14 inches d. b. h.; birch 147 years to reach 14 inches; and beech 184 years to reach 14 inches or an average of 166 years. It seems reasonable that under improved silvicultural conditions this growth would be accelerated.

Conclusion:

I fear that I may have burdened you with too many detailed figures. If so, blame your president; for he asked me to give "some accurate scientific data" and I have endeavored to do so.

President Hadley, of Yale, used to say: "The trouble is not that figures will lie, but that liars will figure." I hope that I do not fall in the latter class. If the figures which I presented have any meaning it is this: The practicability of conservative cutting of the hardwood land in the Adirondacks can be demonstrated in one way only-that is by trial. "Trial," said a Greek philosopher, "Is ever the beginning of learning." What we need, gentlemen, is experimentation. If some member of this association will set aside part of his

hardwood land for a trial of conservative cutting where the results can be carefully studied, he will materially assist in solving the problem. Let us foresters help you to do this.

I thank you.

PRESIDENT OSTRANDER: We are very greatly indebted to Professor Recknagel for his excellent chart.

It was decided to have the chart reproduced and sent to the Secretary.

PRESIDENT OSTRANDER: The next is a discussion upon "The Relation of Hardwood to Softwood Logging in the Adirondack Forests," which will be led by Mr. Ferris J. Meigs. Mr. Meigs, you have the floor.

The topic

MR. MEIGS: Mr. President and Gentlemen: which has been assigned to me, is one which I feel incompetent to discuss, and I must ask your apology for being unprepared. There are so many men in this association that know so much more than I do about The Relation of Hardwood to Softwood Logging in the Adirondack Forests, that I feel very much out of place in trying to say anything at all. Whether the topic means the relation in cost or the relation in quantity on various types of forest, or the attitude with which we approach the general subject of logging Adirondack lands, I am unable to say. I think the most excellent and instructive paper to which we have just listened, has covered this matter most thoroughly, and it seems to me that the only thing I can say is, "Try it." We all realize that in cutting the hardwood and softwood, the softwood must be removed first, or it will be largely destroyed by removing the hardwood. But isn't it a much more serious question whether or not we are to be permitted to lumber at all? This association is composed of men who are interested in the forests and have their money, their life endeavor, and their families dependent upon the industries of these forests. Now, we are confronted with a very serious proposition. We are confronted with the theory that these Adirondack forests are much more valuable for recreational purposes than they are for the industries. Really, since that very policy has been so frankly stated by the Conservation. Commissioner, I have been thinking of little else.

VIRGIL K. KELLOGG: "Here too!"

It seems to me that the lumbermen have a great deal to

say on their side, and they ought to say it. If the policy of this state is to be that these lands, public and private, are to be used for recreational purposes and that it is wrong to use trees for timber, and that is to be the dictum of this state which we have to meet, we should count the cost and make our plans accordingly.

From this point of view, I have no fault to find with the program outlined by Conservation Commissioner Pratt as he was sincere in his attitude, but I think he was mistaken in his deductions, especially as to his estimated relation between the amount invested in the lumbering interests and in the other business of the Adirondacks. I believe that if figures were compiled, showing the total money invested in lands, equipment, and plants dependent in whole or in part, on the lumber and similar interests of the Adirondacks, if, in fact, the total capital invested in the lumber and like interests and the transportation facilities dependent upon them, should be compared to the total investment in all other business enterprises in the Adirondacks, the proportion would be greater than the 20 per cent the commissioner names;— would be much nearer 50 or 60 per cent.

This may not be the occasion, Mr. President, but I believe that before this association adjourns we should put ourselves on a firm basis of organization; that we should have a paid secretary; that we should have a Board of Directors. to represent us and that we should meet these questions and proposed policies of the state and appear before the people of New York State as a representative body of men interested in these industries, in the forests, and in the welfare of the state. Others may look at it from a different point of view, this Adirondack and Catskill question has many points of view. Those holding other points of view are thoroughly organized, are held together and their interest kept alive and their points of view laid before the people of this state by private secretaries. "The Association for the Protection of the Adirondacks" has a paid secretary; "The New York State Forestry Association" has a paid secretary;-"The Camp Fire Club" has a fund for this purpose. I approve this as an excellent idea. We approach this most important subject of the proper use and conservation of our public and private forests from a different angle, and I believe we should carry on an educa

tional campaign, as well as keep alive the interest of our members, and instruct the people of the state that real conservation means proper use, not prohibition of all use;-we can confidently rely upon an educated, intelligent public with our future, and incidentally we can teach them that we are not thieves and undesirable citizens,-that is, not all of us. We should have some one employed by the association whose duty it is to bring us together, and I believe that the principles of this association should be brought before the public, as these principles are rational, constructive, and for the greatest good to the greatest number.

I hope you will pardon me. I seem to have wandered from my subject.

PRESIDENT OSTRANDER: Mr. Hull, you have the floor.

MR. HULL: I am entirely unfamiliar with the subject assigned; I have never as yet cut down a tree. If you would ask me about the methods in Michigan I would know more about it. The conditions there are entirely different than the conditions here. There is no such thing as conservation as applied to Michigan hardwoods for the soil on which they stand is desirable. The method is to cut it clean, put it into cultivation and then it can be made into much more valuable property than it was with the timber standing. In the Adirondacks the soil is not suitable for any immediate method and it would seem that something should be done to perpetuate it as a forest, whether by reforestation of softwood or an attempt by hardwood and the cutting back of it in a few years. In passing, I want to say that I am not very much of a friend of that method. Whatever method is taken, fire prevention is of the greatest importance. Your Conservation Commission is doing wonderful work along these lines. The State of Michigan does nothing for us in that respect.

I believe if the lumberman is just a little more careful he can leave the woods in much better shape than we find them left in some instances. Perhaps I will know a good deal more about logging, etc., in a year or two. I think some one else can give a great deal more information.

MR. OSTRANDER: The discussion is now open if any other members desire to be heard. At the suggestion of Mr.-I now introduce to you Mr. Beede, the new secretary of the

New York State Forestry Association. Perhaps they would like to hear from Mr. Beede.

MR. BEEDE: Mr. President, Gentlemen: Being a junior member among foresters who represent N.Y. State, I feel that I represent the undergrowth in the forestry movement, so I am not going to talk to you about timber, but 1 am going to talk about the opportunities of the New York State Forestry Association, our purpose is very simple. We. propose to afford a meeting place for anybody who is interested in the forests in any way whatsoever, whether for commerce or for sport or for sentimental reasons. Now, we want to afford thru the columns of our journal a clearing house for the discussions and arguments upon any phase of forestry work. You can see there is a great chance for argument and what we need is just an open discussion of these things.

Just a word about the journal, it has been called "The Journal of the New York State Forestry Association." It is my ambition as the new secretary of this association to have it brightened up and come out as one of the most refreshing out-of-door magazines in the state. I want to see the day come when we will be on a self-supporting basis. Until you get your private secretary we want you to use the columns of our journal for your discussions. The only thing we say is that we are not responsible for articles printed on any but the editorial pages. I want to thank the members of your organization who have contributed the sinews of war to help us on our campaign. I hope you will all put in a good word for the association whenever you get a chance and I assure you you will all be welcome, as was the Irishman when he saw two fellows on a corner fighting, stepped up and said, "Is this a private fight, or can anybody get in it?"

MR. OSTRANDER: Is there anything more on this subject? I suppose a vote on the proposed constitution would be timely. That carries with it the providing for financial need and for a Board of Directors. I suggest that someone propose the discussion on the proposed constitution.

MR. KELLOGG: I will make that motion.

MR. OSTRANDER: You have all seen the constitution and I hope given enough thought to it to see whether we ought

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