man who might make a hobby of the Irish sys- I know that behind the captain who commands the tem, and ride it through all these institutions, to ship stands the company of owners, or the directthe disparagement and neglect of a system which ors of the company, to direct all her voyages and might be a vast improvement upon it. But all her ventures. And we know that behind the that the gentleman has said on that point, his superintendent who runs the factory, stands the whole argument, has made for the plan of board of directors of the company who own the organization which I have submitted. What I factory. I ask, who ever heard of a single man want, as I said in my opening upon that question, put over the captain of a ship, a single man put is a body of men of so much wisdom, so much over the superintendent of a factory, or a single experience, so much ability, that they can devise man put over the general of an army? That, as and institute the best system, whatever it is; I attempted to show in the outset of the discusof discrimination sufficient to select from all the sion, is the weakness of the gentleman's plan, systems which are before the world the best sys- and there is no parallel for it. If these prisons tem, or to select the best features of the best constituted, in any sense, a unity, as an army is systems, and to make a new one, if possible, composed of its parts as one whole, there would which shall be better than any now existing. be some force in it; but there is no such connecOne man cannot override the counsels of such tion. They are totally distinct and separate, and a body with a hobby. I go quite as far as the at the head of each of them both of our plans gentleman goes in advocacy of a single individual would place a warden, who should be made the responsibility in the management of these prisons. one sole responsible head of that institution. But where will you have that responsibility? I There is a good deal of force in the comparison insist that the only place to have it is in the of a prison to a factory, for a prison is a factory. warden, at the head of each of these institutions. It is more than that—it is a collection of factories. How is it to-day? Any man who lives near a The prison at Auburn consists of six or eight State prison, or has had any experience or oppor-large manufacturing establishments, each of them tunity of observing them-I ask him where the employing from fifty to a hundred and fifty responsibility is now placed. With the very im- stalwart mechanics in various branches of meperfect authority lodged at present in the hands chanical industry, and they constitute a collecof the warden, the management of each prison is tion of manufacturing establishments. At the yet in his hands, and rightly so. To-day the in- head of each is the keeper, who controls the disspectors appoint every officer of the prison, from cipline of the shop; in each is a foreman who the warden down to the guard that tends the directs the mechanical operations of the men; gate; and the warden has no power to remove and over the whole of these factories, thus assothese officers, even for the grossest misconduct; ciated together, we place the warden, who per. and yet we now hold the warden responsible for sonally superintends and governs the whole. But the management of the prison. So it must always the prison is not merely a collection of factories; be, either under the system proposed by myself, it is a community of a thousand to sixteen hunor under that reported by the gentleman from dred human beings, with interests and needs Columbia [Mr. Gould]. We both give the warden physical, mental and moral, of great and pressthe appointment of his subordinate officers, and ing importance. I say that behind and over the the removal of any and every one of them at his warden, who governs that community, who is pleasure. Can there be any question, then, that absolute in his sphere as the head of that instituit will be the warden of the prison that will be tion, I would have a body of men who possess held responsible for its management? Can there wisdom, intelligence, experience and philanthropy be any question that the warden ought to be held enough to know whether he discharges his duties responsible for its management? I observed that as he ought to do. The gentleman says he would the argument of the gentleman for a single indi- have an undivided responsibility; that he would vidual responsibility had its effect upon the com- make the superintendent responsible. I ask the mittee. I desire that it should. I desire it gentleman, responsible to whom? should have the utmost effect; for that argument is in favor of the system I propose. As I said in the opening of this discussion, there is no such thing as a system of prisons in the State of New York. Each of these prisons is as separate, individual, distinct and independent of all the rest as one of the colleges of the State is distinct from every other similar institution in the State; and I would as soon think of putting one man as President over all the colleges of the State as to put one man in control of all the prisons of the State. The gentleman asks, who ever heard of an army, or a factory, or a ship, put in charge of board? I accept the gentleman's comparison. We Lever did hear of an army put in charge of a bard; but we do know that behind the general who commands the army stands the President of the United States, the commander-in-chief, with his board of counselors, his cabinet, to control and direct the operations of the general. We do Mr. GOULD-The Governor and the Legislature. Mr. C. C. DWIGHT-The Governor and the Legislature have no knowledge on the subject of the management of the prisons. The matter of prison management is a science, distinct from the duties of the Governor and the Legislature, and no man knows this better than the gentleman himself. The Governor and the Legislature have no experience in the management of prisons. All that the Governor and the Legislature can do is what the people can do-look at the balancesheet and see whether there is a balance on the side of profit or of loss; and that is the least of all the considerations which relate to this great subject of prison discipline and management. I say that there should be an undivided, sole responsibility at the head of each of these prisons; and then I would create this body of men of intelligence and experience, who should be competent to exact a just responsibility from that devising the system of management and discipline head. I would make them a body who could human mind—problems, which will never reach a judge whether that head discharged his duty. I full solution so long as crime continues and efforts would make them a body to whom this head continue for the restraint of crime and the reforshould be responsible. The gentleman says he mation of the criminal. The solution of these agrees with me in placing the Albany peniten- great problems will be committed to the central tiary at the head of all the institutions of this supervisory authority which we now propose to character in the country, and as a great example organize. To it must be committed the duty of of efficient, wise and successful management. I ask him, to what is this efficiency of the management of the Albany penitentiary due? It is due to the efficiency, the wisdom, the experience, the character of Amos Pillsbury, who stands at its head. Is Amos Pillsbury directed by any one man who corresponds to the superintendent of prisons proposed by the gentleman? No, sir; behind Amos Pillsbury stands a large board of officials of Albany county, who are capable of judging, from their experience and observation of this prison, whether Amos Pillsbury main- discipline and management devised and estab tains the high character he long ago acquired as a prison officer. And if he should fail, from old age or from any other cause, and become incapable of longer discharging the duties of that position, that board is capable of discovering the fact and of removing him, and of selecting another man to be put in his place. The gentleman from Columbia [Mr. Gould], in answer to a question put to him by the gentieman from Jefferson [Mr. Bell], informed the committee that it was the intention of the plan proposed by him to lay the foundation for the introduction of the Irish system of prison discipline and manage. Mr. AXTELL-I move that the Convention ment. I should like to hear the gentleman ex-rise, report progress, and ask leave to sit again ̧ plain how the system of organization proposed by and on that motion I ask for a count. him was either caiculated or likely to introduce the Irish system of management. I think that I have shown that it is wiser to intrust this matter, for the purpose of obtaining the Irish system, or to obtain a better system if a better system can be found, to a body of men who shall have more of wisdom and more of experience than can be found in any one man in the world. But the gentleman also said, in answer to the same question, that the introduction of the Irish system must be the result of legislation. If it is to be the result of legislation, will one man, placed over these institutions, be more likely to obtain such beneficent legislation than a body of able, distinguished, enlightened and experienced men? Will any one man that can be named by the gentleman be likely to have that weight with the Legislature to influence them to introduce such a system, which the body of councillors I propose would have? But the gentleman cites the action of this Convention in establishing a single superintendent of the canals as a precedent for our action here. Sir, if the prisons of this State were merely parts of a whole, as the Erie canal, and each of its lateral branches, are parts of one system of navigation, or if all the results of the management of prisons were shown on the balance-sheet of pecuniary profit and loss to the people of the State, then I would Mr. S. TOWNSEND, from the Committee of the grant that there might be force in the precedent Whole, reported that the committee had had uncited by the gentleman. But, sir, I think I have der consideration the report of the Committee on shown that such is not the case. The results in State Prisons, their care and management, and the case of our prisons cannot be exhibited by had made some progress therein; but finding, figures. Their management involves some of the on division, that no quorum was present, had most important and the most difficult of the moral instructed their chairman to report that fact to problems which are anywhere presented to the the Convention. The question being put on the motion of Mr Axtell, was declared, by the Chair, to be evidently lost. I Mr. AXTELL-I ask for a count. The CHAIRMAN-The question is decided. Mr. AXTELL-I raise the point of order: and appeal from the decision of the Chair. The CHAIRMAN-The Chair decided that an insufficient number rose, four or five only rising; and that it was evidently not carried. The gentleman asks for a count, and appeals from the decision of the Chair. The question is-shall the decision of the Chair stand as the judgment of the committee? The question being put upon sustaining the decision of the Chair, it was declared carried, by a vote of 26 to 4. Mr. AXTELL-There is no quorum voting. The CHAIRMAN-Does the gentleman raise that question? Mr. AXTELL-I do. The CHAIRMAN-Has he any proposition to make? Mr. AXTELL-There is no quorum voting. The committee must rise. Whereupon the committee rose, and the PRESIDENT resumed the chair in Convention. Mr. RUMSEY-It is evident, then, there is computation of the time necessary to pass from not a quorum; and if that point is insisted upon, we might as well adjourn now as at any time. I make that motion. Mr. ALVORD-I hope the gentleman will withdraw that motion. I ask the unanimous consent of the Convention to go into Committee of the Whole on the Preamble and Bill of Rights. SEVERAL DELEGATES objected. The question was put on the motion to adjourn, and it was declared carried. So the Convention adjourned. MONDAY, February 3, 1868. The Convention again resolved itself into Committee of the Whole on the report of the Committee on State Prisons and the Prevention and Punishment of Crime; Mr. S. TOWNSEND, of Queens, in the chair. The CHAIRMAN announced the pending question to be on the proposition of Mr. C. C. Dwight, to substitute the first and second sections of the minority report, in place of the first section of the majority report. Mr. C. C. DWIGHT—I desire to ask leave to modify my amendment so as to provide for the substitution of section 3, as well as the first and second sections of the minority report. That is necessary in order to complete the organization of the board which my report contemplates. one of these prisons to the other will show that he must use up, in the course of a year, in the simple matter of travel, over one-third of the year, giving to him two-thirds of the year for the purpose of visiting prisons in person. He cannot devote that time and attention to the necessities and wants of these different institutions, to take care of and oversee the management and control of them in the limited time which will be given him to do so, taking out the time necessary for his travel, without the consumption of the whole fifty-two weeks in the year, and then at very great expense to him, both mentally and physically. I doubt whether it is a possible thing for any human being to undergo the immense amount of labor necessary to be devoted to an institution of this kind, scattered as its branches are all over this great State. That is one reason, sir, why I am opposed to this idea of having a general superintendent. Again, sir, I am in favor of the proposition of the gentleman from Cayuga [Mr. C. C. Dwight], because of the fact that after one general system or idea in reference to the management of prisons shall have been estab lished by the board, then they can provide for immediate actual visitation. They can have a portion of their committee, if it be necessary for that purpose, visiting these different institutions at the same time, and coming together and comparing notes in reference to the results of their observations. They can do it more effectually, for they will have more time to do it. They can do it more understandingly, because they will Mr. ALVORD-Mr. Chairman, I have but a have devoted more attention to the secret, inner very few words to say upon this matter. I have workings of the institutions. For that reason I bepad very particular attention to the remarks lieve that, so far as regards the system of a board made by the gentleman from Columbia [Mr. of wanagers as compared with the system proGould), the chairman of this committee, and also posed by the gentleman from Columbia [Mr. Gould], to those made by the gentleman from Cayuga it is the preferable one. I have looked for a long [Mr. C. C. Dwight]. The difficulties in the propo- time upon this question of prisons to see where sition of the gentleman from Columbia seem to the mistake was in their management, and I am me to be perfectly apparent to every one on the convinced, and more than convinced, by the refoor of this Convention. There are now three marks of the gentleman from Columbia, coupled State prisons in this State, two of them almost as with my own observations in regard to this matfar remote as they can be, each from the other, ter, that the great fault lies in the contract sysgeographically, and the other diverging from the tem. It is an impossibility, sir, for the State to two others in the center of the State. The gen-carry on these works while contractors take the teman from Columbia states, and unquestionably labor of a portion of the convicts with that labor he is right in that matter, that it is better for the necessarily done within the limits of the prisons. purposes of discipline and punishment, that these It is an impossibility for any sort of discipline to Initions should not contain as many persons be maintained in any such state of things. In the as, under the necessities of the case, they have first place, the contractor must necessarily have to contain now. It involves, therefore, the prob- access to the prisons at all times for the purpose ability-almost the certainty that other insti- of seeing to his own interests in the disposal of tations of a like kind will be located in other this labor. He must necessarily have more or parts of the State, very soon in the future. That less of those outside of the prison engaged in being the case, judging from the present number bringing the raw material into the prison to be of prisoners incarcerated in State prisons, manufactured, and carrying out the manufactured sech prisons must necessarily be increased at material. There are but very few branches of least to double the present number, if not manufacture in our State prisons but what are more, within a very few coming years. Now, divided into classes, and the result of that is they I understand the proposition of the gentle- must have skilled and expert foremen to stand man from Columbia to be to have a general over, watch and govern the various methods of perintendent, who is under the necessity of vis- producing the manufactured article. These men ng each and every one of these prisons, and cannot be selected from the convicts, they must must, of necessity, be constantly in attendance be selected from outside parties. Taking these spon them. As he goes from the one to the things altogether, you have in the contractors other, he loses the time necessary in travel. A themselves and their foremen an army of men, ter; if we would have the wisest and best selection of officers to administer that system when established; and if we would have those officers constantly held to a strict responsibilty for the most thorough and efficient administration of that system, and the most faithful discharge of their duties under it, then, sir, we must have in the composition of our central authority something more of wisdom, of judgment and of experience than can be looked for in any single man. head. I would make them a body who could human mind-problems which will never reach a judge whether that head discharged his duty. I full solution so long as crime continues and efforts would make them a body to whom this head continue for the restraint of crime and the reforshould be responsible. The gentleman says he mation of the criminal. The solution of these agrees with me in placing the Albany peniten- great problems will be committed to the central tiary at the head of all the institutions of this supervisory authority which we now propose to character in the country, and as a great example organize. To it must be committed the duty of of efficient, wise and successful management. I devising the system of management and discipline ask him, to what is this efficiency of the manage- to be enforced in our prisons, of advising such ment of the Albany penitentiary due? It is due modifications in that system as may, from time to to the efficiency, the wisdom, the experience, the time, be shown to be necessary; of supervising character of Amos Pillsbury, who stands at its the enforcement of that system, and of holding to head. Is Amos Pillsbury directed by any one a strict responsibility all the officers who have to do man who corresponds to the superintendent of with its administration. I ask whether there is any prisons proposed by the gentleman? No, sir; parallel or example for intrusting such duties, behind Amos Pillsbury stands a large board of powers and responsibilities to a single individual? officials of Albany county, who are capable of No, Mr. Chairman, in conclusion, I insist that judging, from their experience and observation if we would have the best system of prison of this prison, whether Amos Pillsbury main-discipline and management devised and estabtains the high character he long ago ac-lished, whether it be the Irish system or a betquired as a prison officer. And if he should fail, from old age or from any other cause, and become incapable of longer discharging the duties of that position, that board is capable of discovering the fact and of removing him, and of selecting another man to be put in his place. The gentleman from Columbia [Mr. Gould], in answer to a question put to him by the gentleman from Jefferson [Mr. Bell], informed the comraittee that it was the intention of the plan proposed by him to lay the foundation for the introduction of the Irish system of prison discipline and manage- Mr. AXTELL-I move that the Convention ment. I should like to hear tho gentleman ex-rise, report progress, and ask leave to 'sit again ̧· plain how the system of organization proposed by and on that motion I ask for a count. him was either caiculated or likely to introduce the Irish system of management. I think that I have shown that it is wiser to intrust this matter, for the purpose of obtaining the Irish system, or to obtain a better system if a better system can be found, to a body of men who shall have more of wisdom and more of experience than can be found in any one man in the world. But the gentleman also said, in answer to the same question, that the introduction of the Irish system must be the result of legislation. If it is to be the result of legislation, will one man, placed over these institutions, be more likely to obtain such beneficent legislation than a body of able, distinguished, enlightened and experienced men? Will any one man that can be named by the gentleman be likely to have that weight with the Legislature to influence them to introduce such a system, which the body of councillors I propose would have? But the gentleman cites the action of this Convention in establishing a single superintendent of the canals as a precedent for our action here. Sir, if the prisons of this State were merely parts of a whole, as the Erie canal, and each of its lateral branches, are parts of one system of navigation, or if all the results of the management of prisons were shown on the balance-sheet of pecuniary profit and loss to the people of the State, then I would Mr. S. TOWNSEND, from the Committee of the grant that there might be force in the precedent Whole, reported that the committee had had uncited by the gentleman. But, sir, I think I have der consideration the report of the Committee on shown that such is not the case. The results in State Prisons, their care and management, and the case of our prisons cannot be exhibited by had made some progress therein; but finding, figures. Their management involves some of the on division, that no quorum was present, had most important and the most difficult of the moral instructed their chairman to report that fact to problems which are anywhere presented to the the Convention. The question being put on the motion of Mr Axtell, was declared, by the Chair, to be evidently lost. I Mr. AXTELL-I ask for a count. The CHAIRMAN-The question is decided. Mr. AXTELL-I raise the point of order: and appeal from the decision of the Chair. The CHAIRMAN-The Chair decided that an insufficient number rose, four or five only rising; and that it was evidently not carried. The gentleman asks for a count, and appeals from the decision of the Chair. The question is-shall the decision of the Chair stand as the judgment of the committee? The question being put upon sustaining the decision of the Chair, it was declared carried, by a vote of 26 to 4. Mr. AXTELL-There is no quorum voting. The CHAIRMAN-Does the gentleman raise that question? Mr. AXTELL-I do. The CHAIRMAN-Has he any proposition to make? Mr. AXTELL-There is no quorum voting. The committee must rise. Whereupon the committee rose, and the PRESIDENT resumed the chair in Convention. Mr. RUMSEY-It is evident, then, there is computation of the time necessary to pass from not a quorum; and if that point is insisted upon, we might as well adjourn now as at any time. I make that motion. Mr. ALVORD-I hope the gentleman will withdraw that motion. I ask the unanimous consent of the Convention to go into Committee of the Whole on the Preamble and Bill of Rights. SEVERAL DELEGATES objected. The question was put on the motion to adjourn, and it was declared carried. So the Convention adjourned. MONDAY, February 3, 1868. The Convention met pursuant to adjournment. No clergyman present. The Journal of Saturday was read by the SECRETARY, and approved. The Convention again resolved itself into Committee of the Whole on the report of the Committee on State Prisons and the Prevention and Punishment of Crime; Mr. S. TOWNSEND, of Queens, in the chair. The CHAIRMAN announced the pending question to be on the proposition of Mr. C. C. Dwight, to substitute the first and second sections of the minority report, in place of the first section of the majority report. Mr. C. C. DWIGHT-I desire to ask leave to modify my amendment so as to provide for the substitution of section 3, as well as the first and second sections of the minority report. That is necessary in order to complete the organization of the board which my report contemplates. one of these prisons to the other will show that he must use up, in the course of a year, in the simple matter of travel, over one-third of the year, giving to him two-thirds of the year for the purpose of visiting prisons in person. He cannot devote that time and attention to the necessities and wants of these different institutions, to take care of and oversee the management and control of them in the limited time which will be given him to do so, taking out the time necessary for his travel, without the consumption of the whole fifty-two weeks in the year, and then at very great expense to him, both mentally and physically. I doubt whether it is a possible thing for any human being to undergo the immense amount of labor necessary to be devoted to an institution of this kind, scattered as its branches are all over this great State. That is one reason, sir, why I am opposed to this idea of having a general superintendent. Again, sir, I am in favor of the proposition of the gentleman from Cayuga [Mr. C. C. Dwight], because of the fact that after one general system or idea in reference to the management of prisons shall have been estab lished by the board, then they can provide for immediate actual visitation. They can have a portion of their committee, if it be necessary for that purpose, visiting these different institutions at the same time, and coming together and comparing notes in reference to the results of their observations. They can do it more effectually, for they will have more time to do it. They can do it more understandingly, because they will Mr. ALVORD-Mr. Chairman, I have but a have devoted more attention to the secret, inner very few words to say upon this matter. I have workings of the institutions. For that reason I bepaid very particular attention to the remarks lieve that, so far as regards the system of a board made by the gentleman from Columbia [Mr. of managers as compared with the system proGould], the chairman of this committee, and also posed by the gentleman from Columbia [Mr. Gould], to those made by the gentleman from Cayuga it is the preferable one. I have looked for a long [Mr. C. C. Dwight]. The difficulties in the propo- time upon this question of prisons to see where sition of the gentleman from Columbia seem to the mistake was in their management, and I am me to be perfectly apparent to every one on the convinced, and more than convinced, by the refloor of this Convention. There are now three marks of the gentleman from Columbia, coupled State prisons in this State, two of them almost as with my own observations in regard to this matfar remote as they can be, each from the other, ter, that the great fault lies in the contract sysgeographically, and the other diverging from the tem. It is an impossibility, sir, for the State to two others in the center of the State. The gen- carry on these works while contractors take the tleman from Columbia states, and unquestionably labor of a portion of the convicts with that labor he is right in that matter, that it is better for the necessarily done within the limits of the prisons. purposes of discipline and punishment, that these It is an impossibility for any sort of discipline to institutions should not contain as many persons be maintained in any such state of things. In the as, under the necessities of the case, they have first place, the contractor must necessarily have to contain now. It involves, therefore, the prob- access to the prisons at all times for the purpose ability-almost the certainty-that other insti- of seeing to his own interests in the disposal of tations of a like kind will be located in other this labor. He must necessarily have more or parts of the State, very soon in the future. That less of those outside of the prison engaged in being the case, judging from the present number bringing the raw material into the prison to be of prisoners incarcerated in State prisons, manufactured, and carrying out the manufactured such prisons must necessarily be increased at material. There are but very few branches of least to double the present number, if not manufacture in our State prisons but what are more, within a very few coming years. Now, divided into classes, and the result of that is they I understand the proposition of the gentle- must have skilled and expert foremen to stand man from Columbia to be to have a general over, watch and govern the various methods of superintendent, who is under the necessity of vis- producing the manufactured article. These men iting each and every one of these prisons, and cannot be selected from the convicts, they must must, of necessity, be constantly in attendance be selected from outside parties. Taking these upon them. As he goes from the one to the things altogether, you have in the contractors other, he loses the time necessary in travel. A themselves and their foremen an army of men, |