mittee but for a moment. So far as concerns | ished too, at the gentleman's idea, that a free the gentleman from Henry, and his fear of the negro in Ohio would be brought into slavery finger of his maker, I will not put any more and become a free negro in Kentucky! I supweight on him. The finger of a gentleman posed the gentleman to be a little farther from his county is upon him, so strong now, along, a little smarter-I wish not to be personal, that I think it would be cruel to put any more but the idea of a man in the state of Ohio, acon him, until that is removed. The gentleman knowledging himself to be a slave, and the abfrom Jefferson appears to think that I or some-olitionists bringing him here and selling him, body else I do not know whether it was any one who was going to murder or assassinate the gentleman or not-had something against his person. I am very sorry that any gentleman here should think I had anything against his person. Mr. MERIWETHER. The gentleman will pardon me but he seems not to have understood the purport of my remarks. I said that some gentleman asked me whether it was Mr. Thomasson, my opponent, who was speaking, or another gentleman who canvassed Fayette in favor of emancipation, and was then rejected. and then he getting his freedom, is one so absurd, that it never for one moment entered my mind. I am in favor of a constitutional provision declaring that no more slaves shall be imported into this state, or if a majority is not in favor of that, I desire that the question shall be divested of all the doubts which involve the clause on the subject in the old constitution. Mr. MERIWETHER. The gentleman did not, I apprehend, comprehend the argument which I made, in supposing a case. I did not suppose that a free negro, wishing to emigrate to Kentucky, would come with an abolitionist, Mr. TURNER. Very well, I do not wish to and permit himself to be sold. The gentleman's permit the power of emancipation, even by pay-resolution does not provide for such a case. It ing for the slaves, and if the gentleman advo- is not necessary to sell the negro, but an abolicates the proposition that it shall be left open, I tionist may come with him to Kentucky, or a ask him upon whom he would impose the tax resident in Kentucky goes to Indiana, and bringfor the purpose. Would he tax those poor men ing the negro here, treats and claims him as his who do not own slaves to pay for their emanci-slave, and by the operation of the gentleman's pation? We have no right to tax those poor men proposition, the negro would be made free, and who own no slaves to pay for ours. Would he hence would have a right to remain here. I go then have those who owned and brought slaves as far as the gentleman, against taxing either here, pay for their emancipation? What would the slaveholder or the non-slaveholder, for the that amount to? Why, to a man's putting his purpose of manumitting the slaves of the state. hand in his right pocket to replenish his left. The committee, I believe not a member of it, They would only pay themselves. Every man, advocate no such provision, but thought it particularly in this convention, will at once say expedient to retain the provision of the old conthat it would be cruel and unjust to tax the great stitution without alteration, so that if any nebody of the people who own no slaves, to pur- cessity should arise, which should become so imchase emancipation. I consider myself a strong-perious as to force us to get rid of our slaves, we er pro-slavery man than the gentleman from Jefferson, for I have never advocated emancipation in any form. The gentleman says he voted for the law to exclude the importation of slaves. Where then, is the difference between myself and any pro-slavery man here? There is none. No gentleman in this convention is more decided than I am, against the taking of a man's property, or useing its proceeds by the government, without compensating him for it. I do not believe it is for the interest of Kentucky, am also against bringing any more slaves here. or that humanity or christianity tolerates it, or that there is any view of the subject, which will justify it, that any human being may take; according to my perception. I do not wish those who differ with me in opinion to think that I imagine they are inhuman. They have different light from me. Every man must act under his own light, and I intend to act on that which has been given to me. But my teachings of the rights and duties of humanity lead me to think that the trafic ought to be restricted. I might do so by devising some means of payment therefor. I again renew the motion that the committee rise and report the resolutions to the house, with a view of then moving that they be referred to the committee of the whole, and made a special order for Monday week. Mr. DIXON. I am anxious at the proper time, to make some remarks upon the proposition contained in the resolutions submitted by the priety of inserting in the constitution, the propgentleman from Madison. I differ from that gentleman entirely in regard to the proosition he has submitted to the convention, and I desire at a proper time to give my reasons to the convention. I do not know that they will have any influence here, still I hold it is a duty to myself, and my constituents, that I should give my views on the important questions involved in the resolutions. I think the motion or the gentleman from Jefferson, to rise and report, is one altogether proper and right, and I hope it will be adopted. Mr. C. A. WICKLIFFE suggested that the discussion had better continue at once, until the The gentleman from Jefferson says that under my proposition, they would send here superannuated slaves to be freed. My proposition is day when gentlemen come to vote upon it, when only in outline, to elicit debate, and I supposed their minds would be fully made up on the subthat a gentleman so distinguished as the gentle-ject. He moved therefore, that the committee man from Jefferson, at the head of a committee, rise and report progress, and ask leave to sit could draft a provision that would effectually again. The subject then could be taken up toprohibit this traffic, and this apprehended send-morrow, or if not, on the next day. ing here of superanuated slaves. I was aston- The motion prevailed, and the committee, through their chairman, reported progress, and obtained leave to sit again. Mr. MCHENRY said that he noticed from the remarks of the gentleman from Madison, that another resolution of that gentleman, in reference to the same subject of slavery, had not been referred to the committee of the whole. He moved to refer the whole series to the committee of the whole. This motion was agreed to. majority of all the qualified voters of this commonwealth have voted in favor of the proposed amendment, the same shall be adopted at the next session of the legislature as part of the constitution. 3. That if more than one amendment is proposed at one time, each amendment shall be distinctly stated, so that the votes may be taken on each proposed amendment separately. LECTURES IN THE HALL. Mr. HARDIN offered the following, which was agreed to: Resolved, That James D. Nourse, of Bardstown, have the use of the hall of this convention, at any time of an evening that he may choose, to deliver a series of lectures on the phi QUALIFIED VOTERS-AUDITOR'S REPORT. The PRESIDENT said that he had been presented by the Auditor, with a list of the qualified voters in each county of the state, in pursuence of a resolution passed this morning. Mr. GARRARD moved the printing of 125 copies of the report, for the use of the members.losophy of history and society, especially with This motion was agreed to. And then the convention adjourned. THURSDAY, OCTOBER 11, 1849. PROPOSITIONS TO AMEND. Mr. BARLOW offered the following resolution, which was agreed to: reference to the sources and progress of modern democracy: Provided, the convention or the committees are not then using the hall. SLAVERY. On the motion of Mr. BARLOW the convention resolved itself into committee of the whole, Mr. BARLOW in the chair, and resumed the consideration of Mr. TURNER'S resolutions, which were undisposed of when the committee rose yesterday. The CHAIRMAN stated the question pending Resolved, That the committee on the miscella- before the committee, and said that the gentleneous provisions of the constitution, be instruct-man from Nelson (Mr. C. A. Wickliffe) was ened to enquire into the propriety and expediency titled to the floor. of making a provision in the new constitution about to be made, which will enable citizens of any of the United States, emigrating to this state, to exercise the elective franchise at an earlier period after such emigration than is now provided in the present constitution. Mr. CHRISMAN offered the following, which was referred to the committee on miscellaneous provisions, and ordered to be printed: Mr. C. A. WICKLIFFE had not intended by the motion he made yesterday to entitle himself to the floor, nor had he given any intimation that he intended to participate in this discussion at all. He supposed that the gentleman from Henderson was entitled to the floor. Mr. DIXON. I did not intend to address the committee on the resolutions submitted by the gentleman from Madison, at the present time.Resolved, That the committee on miscellane- I remarked yesterday, that I did not think this ous provisions be instructed to enquire into the was the proper time to discuss that question, expediency of adopting in the constitution a and I am still of that opinion, and have deprovision declaring any collector of the revenue termined to postpone the making of any remarks tax, or other disbursing officer of the govern- which I may have to submit, until the time ment, or any officer thereof, who may have the when the amendment to the constitution reportcharge or custody of the government funds, or ed by the committee, shall come up for considany attorney or lawyer, or other collector, who eration. At that time I may submit some remay fail or refuse to pay over any money col-marks on the principle contained in the amendlected by him in his official capacity, ineligible to any office under said constitution, until they shall first have obtained a full acquittance and discharge. Mr. HAY offered the following, and it was referred to the committee on the revision of the constitution and slavery, and ordered to be printed: 1. Resolved, That the specific mode of amending the constitution, by submitting to the voters of the state one clause at a time, is the correct and best mode. 2d. That, in lieu of the mode pointed out in the old constitution for calling a convention, the following should be adopted: The legislature, whenever two thirds of both houses concur, may propose amendments to the new constitution, which proposed amendment shall be entered at large on the journals; and such proposed amendment shall be submitted to the people at the next general election, and if it shall appear that a ments proposed, and also in reply to the remarks made yesterday by the gentleman from Madison. I do not design to address the committee to-day. Mr. C. A. WICKLIFFE. As no gentleman seems disposed to address the committee, I desire that we shall proceed to vote on the amendment. If no one is ready to speak, all must be ready to vote, for I believe our minds are pretty well made up in regard to the question. Mr. TURNER. As the gentleman from Henderson has indicated a desire to be heard hereafter, on these resolutions, and as no one seems ready now to speak on them, I move that the committee rise and report them to the house, that they may be referred to the same committee of the whole, to which the report of the committee was referred. Mr. C. A. WICKLIFFE. It strikes me that the course proper for us to pursue in regard great many years, whether the further importa tion of slaves was beneficial or not, and whether there was not as many here now as was profitable; and I suppose it to be as legitimate a topic of consideration here as before the people. There is not a single sentiment in my resolutions, or any sentiment avowed by me yesterday, which I have not avowed before my constituents, and which they do not fully understand. I am considered the most ultra pro-slavery man in my county, and the whole power of the emanci pation interest there was wielded against me, to a greater extent probably than against any other candidate before the people. I come here to sustain the sentiments which I avowed at home. I maintain the inviolability of the slave proper ty of the people of Kentucky, and at the same time my light leads me to believe that there is no necessity for its increase. And this also, is what I understand the people of the county from which I came, to believe. to this subject, would be to proceed with the discussion of the abstract question of slavery now. It is a topic which seems to be involved in the resolutions, as well as in the gentleman's speech of yesterday, and when we have terminated the discussion, we can take up and vote on the amendment proposed. I thought that was the course understood and indicated yesterday by the vote of the house. The present proposition, I understand to be, that the committee shall rise and report the resolutions to the house; but there is an amendment to the resolutions pending, and I do not know whether such a motion is strictly in order until the committee have disposed of the motion to amend. If no other gentleman designs to offer an amendment to the resolutions, it was my purpose, after the committee had disposed of the amendment of the gentleman from Henry, (Mr. Nuttall) to move to strike out these resolutions from the series introduced by the gentleman, with a view of taking a vote of the committee and reporting It is a matter of indifference to me personally, the result to the house, and if it was its pleasure whether this resolution shall be acted upon tothen to postpone further discussion upon them, day or not. I have said most of what I expectit could do so, for it would then be in order. Ied to say, except that I may desire to reply briefthink the members of this house, considering ly to the gentleman from Jefferson, which I had the discussions which took place throughout not time to do yesterday. I had intended to every county and town in the state during the wait, before I should do this, until I heard the last summer, on this question of slavery-wheth- remarks of the gentleman from Henderson, as er it be more useful or profitable than any other he has declared his opposition to the resolutions description of labor or property-the policy of in- which I have introduced. There is one remark terfering with it by the action of this convention, of the gentleman from Jefferson, to which, I perand disturbing the relation between master and ceive from reading the report of the proceedings slave should regard these as questions which our of yesterday, I did not reply. This is, that the constituents have settled for us. And if the pa- importation of more slaves would be beneficial pers told truly, they informed us that there was to those persons who now owned none. Now, I returned to this body, no one favorable to the have always believed that the more people, emancipation of slave property. I think there- whether white or black, brought into a state to fore, that a discussion upon the abstract question; labor, would, by increasing the competition, the right or wrong, the good or evil of slavery lessen the value thereof. But I am not going to the comparrison of profits between servile and discuss that question now, my only desire is, free labor-is one that belongs to the region that I may be put right before the convention north of Mason and Dixon's line, and not to the and the people. I repeat, there is not a member meridian of Kentucky, now, and within this hall. of this house, who will go farther than myself in These were my opinions before the resolutions sustaining the institution of slavery. I do not were discussed yesterday, and they have been believe that we would be justified under any strengthened by that discussion, however able up-consideration in interfering with the rights of on the points touched. However, as the subject has been mooted, I desire that these resolutions shall be retained by the committee-that the committee shall express its sense upon them and then, if any more discussion is necessary, it will properly come up when the report of the committee shall be under consideration. the slaveholders of Kentucky. They have vested their capital in slave property under the sanction of the constitution and the laws of Kentucky, and I am opposed to taking it from them, even if it is proposed to compensate them for the loss. They purchased or invested their property, and they only have the right to dispose of it. Mr. TURNER. I do not wish to be trouble- I believed before this debate came on that some on this subject, but some of the remarks of there was not a majority here in favor of the 6th the gentleman make it necessary that I should resolution, and I so informed the people of my notice them. Now, I came here avowing the county last summer, while avowing myself in same sentiments that I did at home. I am as favor of incorporating the provision in the conmuch opposed to emancipation as the gentleman stitution. I have brought forward this resolufrom Nelson, and I claim to be as sincere in my tion to ascertain what the majority were in favor views as he can possibly be. I am utterly op-of-whether of incorporating the provision into posed to emancipation in every mode and aspect the constitution, or of giving the legislature the in which it has ever been proposed in Kentucky, power over the subject. And really I thought and one of my resolutions is more ultra upon it but right to ascertain upon which of these the subject, than any proposed by the commit- propositions the majority did agree, before the tee, or any gentleman here, for it inhibits the standing committee reported. As I said to my emancipation of slaves compulsorily, even af- constituents before I left home, I suppose the ter compensation has been made. But in the re- majority here will go for leaving the power in gion of country in which I live, and indeed, the hands of the legislature, but for myself, I throughout Kentucky, it has been a question alam pledged to go for inserting a prohibition against the further importation of slaves into this Commonwealth, in the constitution itself. I have said all I desired. The CHAIR. Does the gentleman move to rise and report? wretched condition of the slave, his relation to his master, the peculiar organization of the two races, the utter impossibility that the one can rise to an equality in the scale of morality and dignity with the other, the fact that the slave, Mr. TURNER. It seems to me that it would whether you call him a freeman or not, is still be more respectful to those who wish to speak on but a slave, the wretched offcast slave-I say it this question, as well as to myself, that further becomes a question of grave importance to Kenopportunity should be given to discuss the ques-tucky, whether it is not a blessing alike to the tion. I have no objection to its being laid on the table, to be called up when any gentleman desires to speak upon it. slave and the white man, that he is a slave.— Mr. TURNER." I do not wish to be troublesome, but this is a sensitive matter to the country, and 1 desire that my position shall be fully understood in regard to it. Those who will read my speech of yesterday will find there is not a word in it, against the condition of the slave in Kentucky, or even a suggestion that his condition could be improved in any way. I occupy the same position as the gentleman himself-that you cannot improve the condition of the slave in Kentucky in any way, and that the institution of slavery as it here exists is better for the white and the black man than any thing this convention or the legislature can devise. I do not go as far as the gentleman, and he is mistaken in supposing that I said that slavery as an original institution is an evil-though I will now say that I agree with him, that if we were forming a new commonwealth where no slavery existed, it would be better to get along without it. I agree with him in that, though I did not make the avowal yesterday. As an original question, if there never was a slave in the world, I would not introduce slavery into society, but I also believe that as it exists in Kentucky with the peculiar circumstances surrounding it, it is a benefit to both races. That is my position. I am opposed to bringing any more slaves here, because I do not believe that it is profitable or desirable in any way; and that is the only point on which I differ from the gentleman from Henderson. Mr. DIXON. It is a matter of very little consequence to me, whether I debate these resolutions or not-in fact, were I to consult my own feelings and inclinations, I believe I should not debate them. I listened with a good deal of attention to the speech of the gentleman from Madison yesterday, and the views taken by him upon some abstract propositions connected with the subject of slavery, I thought demanded an answer and reply. I do not know what impressions the opinions advanced by him, as respects the institution of slavery itself, are designed to make on the public mind. I understand him to have laid down as a proposition, that slavery is a great evil, and that to permit the people of Kentucky to purchase for their own use, slaves out of the state, would be not only a great evil, but an outrage upon all the great principles of humanity. The resolutions of the gentleman I understand, propose that no citizen of the state of Kentucky shall purchase slaves out of the state for his own use. The legitimate course of the debate would be on that point alone, yet gentlemen in the discussion here, have taken a wide range, and discussed all the great principles connected with slavery-all the benefits which result to our civil institutions from the existence of slavery-and all the evils which are consequent upon it. I could not tell from hearing the speech of the gentleman, whether in his opinion-though he emphatically declared it to be an evil-slavery was really an evil or a blessing. I do not mean to say that in my judgment slavery is a blessing, or that, in my opinion, slavery as it exists in Kentucky is an evil. This is a question which I mean to discuss at a proper time-not abstractedly, but in reference to the condition of society as it now exists in the commonwealth of Kentucky. I would, if I had the power, make all mankind free. I would have no such thing as slavery or inequality. I would have equal rights measured out to all; but in the formation of civil institutions for the government of man, we are to Mr. CLARKE. I barely intend to indicate to look at the condition of things as they are we the committee, my intention at the proper time are to adapt the laws to the condition of those to to offer a proposition on the subject of the imbe governed. It is a question of grave impor-portation of slaves, variant from that reported tance, whether or not slavery as it exists in Ken- by the standing committee, and that offered by tucky, is not better for the slave and the master the gentleman from Madison. It has been -and this is the great question, the only ques- claimed, and during the recent contest between tion, which can have any particular interest in the different candidates for delegates to this conthis debate. I shall attempt to show that vention, in many sections of the state, it has slavery is not a curse as it exists now in Ken-been urged that the act of 1833 was a concession tucky, but that it is a blessing. I do not mean to abolitionism in this state. I myself have to say, as I remarked before, that it would not be better, if there was no such thing as slavery on the face of the earth. I do mean to say that as slavery exists in Kentucky-in view of all the circumstances around it-in view of the heard gentlemen who are emancipationists in principle, and who had the candor to avow their principles before the people, declare that the act of 1833 was a concession to the spirit of emancipation in this state. During the last session of the state legislature, as I see by an stances connected with that move in Tennessee. examination of their acts, there was a modifica- During the last winter, the few emancipationists tion of the law of 1833 adopted, and in the pas- in this State had produced an excitement that sage of that modification, it seems to me that alarmed the whole south. Kentucky now occuthe sense of the people was clearly and fairly pies a frontier position-the same position now indicated. And if we are to give any respect on the subject of slavery that she occupied in whatever to the opinion of the people, as ex-times past and gone by, in reference to the danpressed by their representatives last winter, and gers that might be apprehended from the incuras expressed in the elections of last August, sions of the savages. She was then a frontier when the candidates for delegates were before state, and still is, so far as the institution of them, if I am not mistaken, it is the sense of slavery is concerned. The broad Ohio, rolling the people of this state, that there should be no its waves from almost the southern extremity of restriction upon the citizen who may desire to the State to its eastern border, separates Kentucky import another slave into the state for his own from the free states, and her members of congress use. I would go farther than the amendment to and the members of congress from every slave the act of 1833, passed at the last session of the state in the union, felt that when that great natlegislature, for it is not broad enough for me. ural barrier, the line of separation, between the It requires the party importing a slave, to take slave and the free states was struck down, there a certain oath, that he was brought into the was danger. They felt that there was scarcely a state for his own use, and that he will not dis-slave state in the union that would not go by pose of him for five years. I would not go so far as to say that I am in favor of importing slaves into the state for the purpose of merchandize, but I would go so far as to say that the citizens of this state should not be restricted in the exercise of the right to bring slaves here. And I would propose to limit the time they should hold the slave, before they had a right to sell him, to twelve months rather than five years. Indeed if I know my own feelings, and what I believe is the sense of those I represent here, I prefer that there should be no restriction around the subject at all. The fifteen slave states of the Union compose one great family, dependent one upon the other, so far as the perpetuity of the institution of slavery is concerned, and I would prefer that there should be no restriction thrown around the citizen at all, but that he should be left free to exercise his own dictates in this matter. You cannot generate by legislative action, a moral principle in the bosom of man, by which he will be governed, and if there are those among us disposed to traffic in human blood, they will find means to do it, I care not what constitutional or legislative restrictions there may be. At a proper time, I shall propose as a substisute for the 5th section of the report of the committee, that every citizen of this state shall be allowed to bring slaves into the state for his own use. And when I make this proposition, I trust that I shall be prepared to sustain it, at least so far as those I have the honor to represent on this floor, are concerned. Now one more remark and I am through. It was suggested by the gentleman from Madison yesterday, that the states of South Carolina and Virginia had both passed laws prohibiting the importation of slaves within their territories. I have not examined the statutes of South Carolina, but I think it possible that my friend is mistaken on that subject. I am aware that during the canvass in the State of Tennessee the past summer, the question was put, and discussed liberally by all the candidates for both branches of the Legislature, and perhaps by the candidates for Congress, as to the propriety of passing a law which would prohibit the importation of slaves from other States into Tennessee. I beg leave to state to the committee that I am perfectly familiar with all the facts and circum the board in less than twenty years, if Kentucky abandoned her old friends who had stood by her in every emergency, and allied herself to those who had warred on her institutions from the beginning of the abolition agitation to the present day. Hence, a meeting of the members of congress from the slave states, was suggested by the members of congress from this state; and it was there suggested that the distinguished and leading men in each slave state in the union should be written to, and be urged to get up an excitement, if you please, upon the subject of prohibiting the importation of slaves from one state into another. And for what purpose? For no other than to prevent the emancipation of slaves in Kentucky, as every gentleman here can see. Hence, the move that was made in the state of Tennessee, upon the subject of a law to prohibit the importation of slaves into that state. We were aware that there was not money enough in Kentucky to purchase the liberation of the slaves of Kentucky, and that our people well enough knew the fact; and we were aware also, that when the balance of the slave states of this union had declared by their legislative action, that our slaves should not be purchased by their citizens, that it would operate as a terror upon those in favor of emancipation in Kentucky and put down the emancipa tion party. That was the motive. I am not unwilling to declare here, before the state and the world, that I believe that slavery, as it exists in the slave states of this union, elevates the character of the white race,'its dignity, and its morals, and I trust that we shall frame a constitution that will perpetuate slavery in this state for all time to come. When the proper time shall arrive, I desire to offer as a substitute for the 5th section of the report of the committee, a section that shall embody the principle that every citizen in this state shall have a right to import slaves into this state for his own use, and upon that proposition I desire to be heard. Mr. STEVENSON. I have no desire to take part in the debate at this time, and I think that courtesy to the gentlemen who intend to do so as well as the nature of the subject itself, dictates that this matter should be postponed, and that it should come up with the resolutions reported by the committee on the revision of the constitution and slavery. I had designed to offer an amend |