Q. Before it commenced to grow less what proportion of your business went by way of New York?

A. Probably half. That is an approximation. Of course, I can't recollect exactly.

Q. Which of the ports have gained the most of what New York has lost?

A. Montreal, Boston, Baltimore and Philadelphia.

* New York had a great prestige which lasted a great many years because different people getting in the habit of shipping by certain channels like to do it. We in the West like New York, and love to do our business there, but we have been forced away from it a great deal against our will by the competition of those other ports."

D. E. Richardson, another large grain exporter, of Chicago, testified.

"Q. Through what ports do you chiefly export your grain?

A. We export through Galveston, through Portland, Maine; through Montreal and Philadelphia and New York.

Q. Have your shipments in recent years by way of Montreal increased as between Montreal and New York?

A. Yes sir, materially."

J. H. Norton, in business in Chicago for thirty years, as a grain exporter, testified:

"Q. You do export grain?

A. We ship grain for export. A large portion of our business lately has been shipping grain to New York which has been sold to exporters there.

"I have had occasion to look into the Montreal route this last season because we have found that we could not compete with shippers who were shipping by that route.

Q. If it is true that you cannot compete with shippers shipping by that route, how is it that you in such competition do not ship by way of Montreal? What is the nature of your business that leads you to choose other ports?

A. I say I have been looking into it and expect to do a business that way next season.

Q. You expect next season to ship by Montreal?

A. I have done very little by Montreal, but I shall be compelled to or go out of business.

Q. You found that you had been a loser by shipping via New York and that you have lost to your competitors, who have shipped by way of Montreal?

A. Yes, sir; my business has diminished this year for that reason."

Geo. E. Marcy, of P. D. Armour & Co., after calling attention to the fact that the Gulf competition had taken grain away from Chicago as well as New York, testified:

"Q. What efforts, if any, have you made or are you making to secure for Chicago that business or any part of that business?

A.

Things are better now than they were a few years ago, getting in better shape. The main thing that has helped Chicago out the last few years has been Montreal. All of us went to New York and begged the trunk lines east of Buffalo to reduce their charges or do something to help us from losing all that business to the Gulf. Q. How long ago did you begin that?

A. About 4 or 5 years ago. We begged them and told them it was going and asked them if they couldn't possibly do something to reduce their rates east of Buffalo, so that we could use the water transportation. The officials of the Eastern roads stated that the grain business did not

pay them much and they would practically prefer to ignore it. When we told them that before they got through they would find that merchandise would go the same way, they laughed at us.

Q. What has been the result?

A. The merchandise is going just as we told them. In the meantime Montreal has come to our rescue, and, as far as Chicago is concerned, we now don't care very much what New York does do."

Similar testimony was given by the grain exporters of Duluth: A. D. Thompson, an exporter, doing business in Duluth for ten to fifteen years, testified:

"Q. To what extent do you ship at the present time by way of New York-what proportion of your shipments? A. Very small proportion.

Q. By way of New York?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. For how many years has that been the condition?
A. Gradually decreasing for the last ten years.

Q. What proportion did you ship by way of New York ten years ago?

A. I should say half.

Q. Inside of ten years it has been reduced from one-half of your total shipment to practically nothing at all? A. Well, practically less than a quarter.

Q. Less than a quarter?

A. Yes, sir."

FLOUR.

C. J. Martin, of Minneapolis, the secretary and treasurer of the Washburn-Crosby mills, testified:

"Q. Can you state what the annual output is of your

A. It is about 5,000,000-five and a half million last year.

Q. And by what ports do you export?

A. The port that will give us the cheapest route, all things considered.

Q. As a matter of fact by what ports do you export?

A. By New York some, New York very little; Philadelphia, Baltimore, Newport News, Montreal, Boston, Portland and very little by Galveston-not Galveston, but Port Arthur.

Q. You say that you use New York very little?

A. Yes, sir, a small proportion of our shipments have gone that way.

Q. For how long a time has that been so?

A. Oh, it has been decreasing I think for several years, as these other ports have offered inducements for shipping that way."

L. P. Hubbard, of Minneapolis, Treasurer of the PillsburyWashburn Flour Mills Company, connected with the company at Minneapolis for about twenty-five years, testified:

Q. Will you state what is the capacity-what is the annual output of this mill?

A. Between five and six million barrels of flour.

Q. You export to the foreign ports directly from Minneapolis, do you not?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. By way of what American ports do you export?

A. All excepting the Southern ports. We use them very little, but we use Montreal, Boston, New York, Philadelphia, Baltimore and Newport News.

Q. You mean by the Southern ports, the Gulf ports?
A. I mean Gulf ports, New Orleans.

Q. Of the Atlantic seaports which ones do you use the most?

A. Well, I should say, in my mind Boston and Baltimore and Newport News.

Q. To what extent would you say that you use New York at the present time, just approximately, in percentages?

A. That is something I couldn't say. I doubt if New York takes-I doubt if it takes a quarter of our export business.

Q. Has there been any change in that respect now compared with past years?

A. I think there is, yes, I think we export less by New York now than we did ten years ago, or say six years ago. Q. How much less; take six years ago, about what proportion?

A. It used to take the bulk. New York and Boston used to take the bulk.

*

Q. Now New York takes only one-quarter?

A. I don't believe it gets a quarter.

Q. How about Boston; has that remained about the same or increasing quantities?

A. Boston I don't think has varied a great deal.

Q. So that what New York has lost

A. It has been gained by the South.

Q. By Newport News; Baltimore has gained on New York?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Baltimore and Newport News have increased a great deal?

A. Yes, sir, and that largely at the expense of New York."

H. P. Gallagher, of Minneapolis, manager of the Northwestern Consolidated Milling Company, owning the flour mills of Duluth, and large mills at Minneapolis, testified: