Mr. ECKMAN. No; it is solid soap.

Senator THOMAS. Can you give the amounts, the figures?

Mr. ECKMAN. I can not give you the figures except to say that some manufacturers during the last two years have exported half of their entire output of laundry soap, manufacturers who before the war did not export any to Europe, and their European exports have amounted to half of their total manufacture since the end of the war. Senator THOMAS. Is that continuing in the present period of depression?

Mr. ECKMAN. Not in the present period of depression. Those countries that import soaps are not importing them from the United States or anywhere else during the last two or three months.

The CHAIRMAN. What do our imports of soap amount to in dollars and cents?

Mr. ECKMAN. Normally our exports of laundry soaps were confined exclusively to the West Indies, and one particular brand to Great Britain, and at little to South America. The total exports were very insignificant.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you export any to the Eskimos?
Mr. ECKMAN. Practically none whatever.

Senator CALDER. The Senator asked you about our normal exports. Mr. ECKMAN. Our normal exports before the war were only to the West Indies and some of our nearby markets. This exportation that has taken place since the war to European ports is something that we are hoping to maintain permanently.

Senator CALDER. Have you any idea of the value of the exports of laundry soap during the first six months of 1920?

Mr. ECKMAN. I have not the figures in dollars and cents. familiar with what we did in our own business.

Have

The CHAIRMAN. You spoke of a greatly increased export. you any idea, in the roughest kind of a way, what it amounts to in dollars and cents?

Mr. ECKMAN. Perhaps some of the other gentlemen who have those statistics at hand for the industry as a whole could state. Mr. Collingwood?

Mr. COLLINGWOOD. No, sir; I have not them.

The CHAIRMAN. You made an important statement, and I would like to know what its magnitude is.

Senator THOMAS. You can get those figures

Mr. ECKMAN. Yes; from your department here.

The CHAIRMAN. I wish you would get them.

Mr. ECKMAN. Yes, sir. I thought it would be of interest to inform you that some of the eastern manufacturers have increased their export business to such an extent that it now amounts to approximately 50 per cent of their total business. For instance, Sen

ator

Senator THOMAS. Laundry soap?

Mr. ECKMAN. Yes. For instance, Senator [addressing Senator Calder], one of your neighbors over in Brooklyn is now the leading seller of soap in Norway, soap manufactured in your home town. Before the war they exported none to Norway. Their principal competitor manufactures soap in Liverpool. At the present time your neighbor is exporting rather large quantities. I say at the present

time, meaning last year. At present they are not exporting any, probably, on account of the exchange situation.

So that the laundry-soap business has largely increased for certain eastern manufacturers since the end of the war to European ports, and it has come about because of the change in the trend of business in these oils.

Before the war the American soap manufacturer did not use nearly as much of this oriental oil as he has been using since the war, and you will readily appreciate that with the great scarcity of ocean tonnage the Europeans needed what they could get on the short hauls to a greater extent than they ever did before, because the oriental oils took a long time to get around, and they were subject to the U-boat peril. Those oils can come here to the United States through the west coast and can go into the soap kettle. These oriental oils took the place here in soap manufacture of American oils, while, on the other hand, the American oils took the place of oriental oils in the edible oil field. They have become accustomed over there to a certain extent to using the better oil for edible purposes. We use a cheaper oil for edible purposes, putting the oriental oil into the soap kettle.

That has come about largely as a result of the shipping situation during the war. For the purpose of making margarine and all the edible purposes they were depending upon American oils instead of oriental oils, and we have got them accustomed to using them, and I believe that, as a matter of fact, it is better for the American grower of cotton, the producer of cottonseed oil, to keep the higher priced oils for edible purposes rather than to force those oils back into the soap kettle in America, and have the oriental oils pursue their normal course. They prefer the American oils over there and they are willing to pay a higher price.

Senator SIMMONS. Have you statistics which show the extent? Mr. ECKMAN. They were read this morning with regard to the importation of oils at the present time.

Senator SIMMONS. What I wanted to know was to what extent the exportation of cottonseed oil had increased since you say this trend set in.

Mr. ECKMAN. That information we will submit to you very shortly from Government records.

Senator SIMMONS. I was not present when you went into that. Mr. ECKMAN. Another phase of the situation is that with the Europeans getting these oriental oils cheap they might compete with us on laundry soap in this country. If we have to use the better oils for laundry soap, American cottonseed oil, and pay a higher price for it, they can use the cheap oriental oils for laundry soap, and they will undoubtedly be able not only to force us out of some of these markets where we have recently gained a foothold but they may even import them into this country, because there is only a 5 per cent duty on laundry soap in this country. That is quite conceivable and would be the result if the differential is not properly adjusted.

Senator Penrose spoke about profiteering, and this morning, I believe, the Senator from Utah [Senator Smoot] mentioned the fact that the Federal Trade Commission was after the beet-sugar people because they are losing money. I believe that was the statement he

made that they were being prosecuted because they were losing money. Practically every laundry-soap manufacturer in the United States has lost money during the last two years. I know of no instance where they have made any money. One large old responsible firm in the fourth generation has failed within the last two months

Senator THOMAS. What firm is that?

Mr. ECKMAN. Lautz Bros., of Buffalo. The present people engaged in that company are either the third or fourth generation. I believe the fourth generation is the sons of the present president of the company. I know that none of the laundry-soap manufacturers have made anything.

Senator THOMAS. Then your export business is not profitable?

Mr. ECKMAN. The export business has saved to some slight extent what would have been a greater calamity, perhaps, if it had not been for that export business. Instead of one, there might have been two or three or four companies that would have gone into the hands of a receiver.

The CHAIRMAN. What has been the average increase in the selling price of soap in the United States?

Mr. ECKMAN. The 5-cent cake of soap went up to 8 cents, and in some few cases 9 cents. In other words, the maximum figure was from 5 to 9 cents, that 9-cent price being rather a country price. In the cities, at the very peak, you could get the standard brands of soap for 8 cents a cake, and that in spite of the fact that practically every article entering into soap had increased from the very minimum double to four and five times as much as it was before the war, and that was offset, as has been told by the previous speaker, by the fact that they could make some money on glycerin. But the American consumer has never paid anything like in proportion to the increased cost of common laundry soap, and that is a chemical article which should have gone up and would have gone up to triple and even quadruple

Senator THOMAS. Suppose this bill passes; do you think it would affect the price of soap?

Mr. ECKMAN. It would probably tend to if it produces the effect that the framers of it wish-if it makes us use higher-priced domestic oils instead of these cheap imported oils it could not help but increase the cost of soap.

It may be of interest to the committee to know that the laundrysoap industry, although we consider that we are deserving of almost as much consideration as the agriculturists, because cleanliness is supposed to be next to godliness

Senator THOMAS. They may put a duty on godliness before we get through here.

Mr. ECKMAN. We have gone through these two years and we have not come to the Senate committee and asked for any relief, and we believe that in general, if any one industry deserves some consideration it should be one that has not only just commenced to suffer when everybody is suffering on account of the business depression, but one that has been for the last couple of years. We believe it is up to us to work out our own salvation; that as a result of the economic disturbance caused by reconstruction we all to have stand our share. We

have stood ours. Maybe we will have another year or two of it: but we are going to fight it through. Maybe we shall not succeed in fighting it through; one concern was not able to, and when we see the statements of 1920 reducing their inventories to the present market value there will be a great many red-ink figures in the statements of laundrysoap concerns of the country.

Thank you, gentlemen.

The CHAIRMAN. Is that all, Mr. Dunn?

Mr. DUNN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. The chair is not informed that there are any other persons desiring to be heard this afternoon; in which case the committee will suspend proceedings until to-morrow morning at 10.30 o'clock.

(Whereupon, at 3.55 o'clock p. m., the committee adjourned until to-morrow, January 11, 1921, at 10.30 o'clock a. m.)

TUESDAY, JANUARY 11, 1921.

UNITED STATES SENATE,
COMMITTEE ON FINANCE,
Washington, D. C.

The committee met, pursuant to adjournment, at 10.30 o'clock a. m., in room 312, Senate Office Building, Senator Porter J. McCumber presiding.

Present Senators Penrose (chairman), McCumber, Smoot, La Follette, McLean, Calder, Sutherland, Simmons, Jones, and Nugent. Senator MCCUMBER (acting chairman). Mr. Dunn, we will proceed with the hearing on the oil matter now.

STATEMENT OF MR. ARTHUR DUNN, REPRESENTING FOREIGN COMMERCE ASSOCIATION OF THE PACIFIC COAST, SAN FRANCISCO, CALIF.

Mr. DUNN. If the committee please, my name is Arthur Dunn. I appear here representing the Foreign Commerce Association of the Pacific Coast, an organization of importers and exporters engaged in foreign commerce with international ports. We are particularly interested in the embargo bill-for such we read it to be, rather than a tariff measure.

As to the various items in the bill: Referring to paragraph 8, rice, we are not in opposition to any duty that may be proposed on rice. Senator SMOOT. Is the rate in that instance an embargo?

Mr. DUNN. That I could not answer, Senator, because rice does not enter very largely into imports at this time, since the coming of prohibition.

Senator SMOOT. Your remarks refer to oils rather than anything else?

Mr. DUNN. Oils, peanuts, and beans.

Senator SMOOT. Never mind about the rice.

Mr. DUNN. So far as rice is concerned, since brewers' rice is no 'onger called for we are not concerned in that.

With reference to the other commodities, we are approaching this embargo proposition from a broad standpoint rather than from any individual item in the bill, since we feel that if an embargo is imposed it will seriously curtail our trade with China and Japan particularly.

We would like to call your attention to the totals of imports and exports with China and Japan. From China we imported in 1917, $105,905,531 of all commodities; in 1918, $116,644,981; in 1919, $105,762,859; in 1920, $226,887,848.