most of the landlords objected to a pro- | the right hon. member for the University vision of this nature being made for the of Cambridge and the hon. and learned Church. There was another objection, member for the University of Dublin. A that it would give a strong political in-paper had been circulated amongst the fluence to the clergy. This, however, was clergy of Ireland, and he believed had not so strong an objection if they could emanated from this country. He did have satisfied the landowner. His right not know whether those hon. Members hon. friend concluded his able speech, for had any hand in drawing up this paper, so he (Mr. Littleton) must undoubtedly call but he believed that it spoke their sentiit, by censuring in the strongest terms the ments. The right hon. Gentleman then appointment of the Commission. No one proceeded to read it. It was to the effect was more anxious than himself to uphold that the clergy of Ireland should consider the Irish Church, and to adopt such whether they would consent to make the means as would best conduce to that end; Government trustees for all the tithes in but he was sure that no better means Ireland, or whether the clergy would concould be devised previous to their pro- sent that their friends in that House should ceeding to the consideration of the Irish throw out the Bill, and thus leave them in Church Question. Many of those who the possession of their legal and just claims objected to the Commission did so for to the full amount. [Mr. Shaw: I have very good reasons, as they knew that it never heard of or read the paper.] He would produce a Report which would did not charge the hon and learned Gencontain facts which party spirit could not tleman with being the author of it. A stifle, and which he was sure would so communication from an Irish clergyman operate on the honour and good sense of had been transmitted to him on the subthe country as to lead to some important ject of this letter, an extract from which he measures. He was perfectly satisfied that would read to the House :-"I received the Report would be a most useful manual a copy of a circular letter to the clergy of for the people of England. The measure Ireland from the Archdeacon of Dromore, which the Government would submit to and emanating from our friends in EngParliament founded on the Report would, land. On the receipt of it, I consulted he doubted not, be successful in its opera- several of the neighbouring clergy who tion. On the subject of the Commission, he were unanimously of opinion, that it was begged leave to read an extract from a not necessary to interfere to prevent the speech made by his right hon. friend (Mr. imposition of a Land-tax, for if that Stanley) some years ago. It was an ex- were not done, the clergy would be left tract from the first speech his right hon.in a hopeless situation." His fellow clergyfriend made in that House, and was on men concurred with him in the opinion, the Motion of Mr. Hume, in 1824, for that the matter should be left to the wisan inquiry into the Irish Church, "Hedom of the Government and Parliament. could state," said his right hon. friend, Mr. Stanley said, that as his right hon. "that he had consulted many high dig-friend had referred to some official informnitaries of the Church, and they were of opinion, that an investigation should take place into not partial or narrow-the whole question of the political and moral relations of the Church, and that they should be clearly brought under view. He hoped sincerely that such an inquiry would take place. Some Commission should go forth to view with its own eyes impartially and on the spot, the bearing and influence of the Church Establishment on the condition of the people of Ireland." Such was the language of his right hon. friend, and the Commission, the appointment of which had been censured by his right hon. friend now had gone forth. There was another remark which he wished to make, and to which he requested the attention of ation on a subject affecting himself (Mr. Stanley) he felt anxious to say a few words. His right hon. friend had said, that he had recently seen a Bill for constructing waggons for the removal of the more valuable property of the cottier tenants who were in arrear for tithe. He could not doubt that the right hon. Gentleman had had some information; and he could not for a moment suppose, that his right hon. friend did not believe the statement, that the goods of some cottiers had been removed by these waggons. Of course his right hon. friend could not make such a statement without having inquired into the facts. It was true that there was a waggon-train which had been employed in conveying the hay and corn that Turner, W. Wason, R. TELLER. Hume, J. HOUSE OF LORDS, of those who were well able, and who re- | Trelawney, Sir W. S. Mr. Littleton said, that he merely quoted the information communicated to him from Dublin. The Committee divided on Mr. Hume's Amendment-Ayes 72; Noes 364; Majority 282. The Committee divided again on the original Resolution-Ayes 235; Noes 171; Majority 64. Resolution agreed to. The House resumed. List of the AYES on the first Division. Aglionby, H. A. Bainbridge, E. T. Jacob, E. Lister, E. C. O'Connell, Daniel Attwood, T. Baines, E. Barry, G. S. Beauclerk, Major Bellew, R. M, Bish, T. Blake, M. Bowes, J. Pease, J. Dashwood, G. H. Philips, M. Davies, Col. Ewart, W. Potter, R. Romilly, J. Staveley, J. Petitions presented. By the Duke of WELLINGTON, Lord ROLLE, the Bishop of CARLISLE, the Duke of BUCKINGHAM, Lord KENYON, the Bishop of LONDON, the Earl of HAREWOOD, and Lord STRADBROKE, from a Number of Places, for Protection to the Established Church.-By the Bishop of LONDON and Lord KENYON, from the Poulterers of London; and from the Wesleyans of Boltonle-Moor,-for the Better Observance of the Sabbath.-By the Duke of HAMILTON, from Arran, for Protection to the Church--By the Earl of ABINGDON and the Earl of HAREWOOD, from Places in Berkshire and Yorkshire,against the Admission of Dissenters to the Universities; also by the Bishop of CARLISLE, the Duke of BUCKINGHAM, the Bishop of EXETER, and Lord KENYON, from a Number of Places,-to the same effect.-By the Earl of DURHAM, and Lord DENMAN, from Dissenters at Castle Cary and St. George's in the East, and other Places,—in favour of the Dissenters. CHURCH COMMISSION (IRELAND).] The Earl of Wicklow presented a Petition, very numerously signed, from the Protestant inhabitants of the parish of Kilbucar, in the county of Westmeath, praying for the revocation of the Irish Ecclesiastical Commission. The petitioners declared, that they viewed this measure with deep apprehension, and that the whole Protestant population of Ireland were greatly alarmed at it. They were the more astonished at such a measure having been adopted, since it had been stated by two influential Members of his Majesty's Government that opinions were divided on the subject. Earl Grey did not know where this information came from, but of this he was certain, that no person could, consistently with his duty, disclose any circumstances that had occurred in the Cabinet. A communication had, at an early period, been received from the Lord-lieutenant of Ireland, and in consequence the subject had been taken into consideration. He did not mean to deny, that the individuals alluded to, had a right to offer objections to the step proposed to be taken, if they thought proper; but he must say, that it was irregular to state what had taken place in the Cabinet. The Duke of Richmond said, that what he had said in explanation on a former occasion, in consequence of what fell from his noble friend opposite, was not stated without the express sanction of his tion on them? He could, for his own part, see nothing in the mode of doing bu Sovereign. In cases of that sort, when | for debt, and several Bills for altering the the honour of an individual was concerned, Criminal Law of the country, such as the he was anxious for the House to know Capital Punishment Bill, and the Punishthat he had not stated anything without ment of Death Bill. There were also the that sanction. In consequence of de- Bill for the Registration of Votes and the spatches from the Lord-lieutenant of Ire- Bribery Bill. All these subjects were of land, recommending that a Commission sufficient importance to call for the most should issue, the subject was taken into serious consideration; and yet, at so late a consideration, and from that time till he period, how would it be in their Lordships left the Cabinet, he heard nothing fur-power to bestow that necessary considerather about it. That, he believed, was exactly what took place. Earl Grey said, his noble friend's decla-siness in the other House of Parliament to ration, that he had received his Majesty's permission to state what he had done, was perfectly correct; but as he had received no such permission, he could not, consistently with his obligation as Cabinet Minister, disclose what passed on the occasion referred to. He was sure, that his noble friend meant to state correctly what had happened, and he (Earl Grey) did not feel it necessary to say more than this-namely, that the ques-duty, many of these Bills would not be tion was, at a very early period indeed, brought under the consideration of the King's Ministers, despatches having been received with reference to the subject from the Lord-lieutenant of Ireland, and it was again taken up, and most maturely considered, before the measure was decided on. a BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.] Lord Wharncliffe having presented a petition from the Liverpool Guardian Society for protection to trade, took the opportunity of adverting to the state of the public business in that House. They had now arrived at the 7th of July, and, as yet, very little had been done. He had hoped, that the business would have been so managed between the two Houses, that all the Bills of consequence would not have been put off till a period which rendered it quite impossible to proceed with them in that deliberate manner which measures of importance required. Very many important questions were yet to be brought under their consideration, and now they had arrived at the 7th of July. Any one of the subjects to which he had alluded would take a very considerable time to deal with it properly. In that House, they at present had the Poor-laws' Bill, which would require most laborious investigation. Then there were in the House of Commons the Irish Tithes' Bill, the Church Temporalities' Bill, the General Registry Bill, the Church-rates Bill, the Bill relative to the imprisonment lead him to believe that the country would be satisfied if those measures were passed without due notice being taken of them in that House. That several of these measures would be beneficial, he did not mean to deny; and in the principle of some of them he concurred; but he hoped, that their Lordships would not agree to one of them as a mere matter of course, and he was convinced, that if this House did its passed this Session, on account of the shortness of time. With respect to the Poorlaws Bill, he did not believe there was one class of persons in the country who properly understood it, or who were aware of the consequences that were likely to arise from it. Should these measures be introduced this Session, he should be obliged to oppose several of them, on account of the shortness of the time allowed for their consideration. Earl Grey admitted, that the measures alluded to by the noble Lord were very important. It must, however, be confessed that no time had been wasted by the other House of Parliament. They had sat, throughout the Session, from 12 o'clock in the morning until a very late hour at night; and therefore any delay that had taken place was not to be imputed to them. Some of those Bills were of such a nature that he trusted their Lordships would pass them in the present Session, and more particularly that of which it would be his duty to propose the second reading to-morrow. The noble Lord said, that the country was not aware of the principles and provisions of that Bill. That he did not think was the case. When he considered the time that had elapsed since the Report of the Poor-law Commissioners was laid before Parliament-the time that had been taken in discussing the measure in another place, and the constant communication of those discussions to the public-when he recollected that no pains had been spared, not that it was hopeless to expect that their Lordships would make so great a change in the law without very mature consideration. At the same time, he thought the Those who had to inform the public, but to excite the feelings and prejudices of the public against the measure-when he considered these different points, he could not think, that the public, and particularly that portion of the pub-object of the Bill was most beneficial. Here lic who were most seriously interested in the Administration of the Poor-laws, were not aware, not only of the principles and objects of the Bill, but even of its minute details. With respect to the other Bills, a list of which the noble Lord had given, he felt that it would be hardly possible to expect some of them to be passed in the present Session. Amongst those Bills there were two for effecting alterations in the Criminal-law of the country. Those were the Capital Punishments Bill, and the Punishment of Death Bill. There was also a Bill granting counsel to prisoners in cases of felony, and also a Bill for altering the law with respect to imprisonment for debt. Of these measures he did not wish to give any opinion. He certainly was not for a general and indiscriminate rejection of these Bills; but he felt that they were subjects that ought to be extremely well considered. Alterations of so important a nature ought not to be made on the mere suggestions of individuals, but should be founded on the mature judgment of persons competent to decide on their propriety. He therefore should wish, with the noble Lord, that those Bills should lie over to another Session. There was another reason why it would be desirable to defer proceeding with those measures, and that was because, in his opinion, it was necessary before such alterations were effected, that something should be done with respect to a system of secondary punishments, to which subject the noble Lord had already turned his attention. Till some particular system could be laid down with reference to secondary punishments, he thought it would be better that such alterations should lie over. There were, however, several measures of very great importance, to which he hoped the House would pay due attention, and pass them in the present Session. The Lord Chancellor said, the measures respecting the alteration of the Criminallaw, to which reference had been made, were unquestionably of the utmost importance. But there was one Bill, which respected imprisonment for debt, that it would, in his opinion, be impossible for their Lordships to pass in the present Session. Indeed, he doubted whether the other House could agree to it in this Session of Parliament; but he was certain he begged leave to state, on behalf of his he did not know, if they were to carry the measure to which allusion had been more particularly made, how they could possibly have done more than they had done. This was not the first time complaints had been made similar to that advanced by the noble Lord. Every Session since he had sat there, and indeed long before either the noble Lord or himself had a seat in that House, the delay of business had been a regular source of complaint. Indeed, a late noble friend of his, the Duke of Norfolk, annually made a complaint on the subject, nearly in the same words as were used by the noble Lord, and standing also in nearly the same place which the noble Lord now occupied. The Woolsack was at that time occupied by Lord Thurlow, and when the noble Duke made his complaint it was generally received with a rebuke by the Lord Chancellor. Lord Thurlow said, that they in that House had no right to know, that the end of the Session was approaching. That was a matter that concerned the Royal breast alone; and he understood from his noble friend near him (Lord Holland) that the noble Lord, his predecessor on the Woolsack, had upon one occasion called the noble Duke, to order when making his complaint. Let, therefore, the noble Lord who now complained congratulate himself that he lived in so mild a reign. He was not called to order; he was suffered to make his remarks; and it was very proper that the noble Lord should do so. He thought that what was complained of was a great evil, because in consequence of measures being introduced very late in the Session, many of them did not receive that sifting examination which the House was competent to bestow on them. The Duke of Cumberland requested to be informed as to the course intended to be taken with the Non-Residence and Pluralities Bills. The Lord Chancellor said, he had formerly stated, that if he found that a sufficient opportunity was not given to the clergy in the country to understand that Bill which more immediately affected their interests than it affected the interests of the right reverend Prelates in that House-if he found that, as a measure of justice towards those meritorious and laborious men, the working clergy, further time should be given them for examining the details of the measure-he would willingly afford them that opportunity by letting the VOL. XXIV. Third 7 Series Bill lie over; indeed, he was ready, if necessary, to take that course, not with respect to one of those Bills, as had been incorrectly stated, but with reference to both of them, for it would be absurd to postpone one without postponing the other. Lord Suffield observed, that when it was known that crime had greatly increased, and when the Government either had not the opportunity or the inclination to take up the subject of the Criminal-law, it was a little too much to say, that no individual in either House of Parliament should stand forward to effect such alterations in the law as the public safety and security required. He meant not to impugn the conduct of his Majesty's Government, but it was a little too much to say, that if they would not do that which was right, therefore no one else should do it. The measure that related to capital punishment had been much discussed in the House of Commons. Great alterations had been suggested in it, some of them by a Law Officer of the Crown, and if that did not afford a reason why Ministers should not oppose it when it came into that House, then he despaired of finding a more conclusive one. The subject was dropped. SUPPRESSION OF DISTURBANCES (IRELAND).] On the Order of the Day for going into a Committee on the Suppression of Disturbances (Ireland) Bill being read, The Earl of Wicklow said, he would take that opportunity, as he did not mean to propose any Amendment, to make one or two observations. On the evening when the noble Earl brought forward this Bill, he felt some surprise that the noble Earl had not alluded to the improvement in the Juries of that country to which it related. He had removed an odious clause (the Court-martial clause), for such he always considered it a clause which nothing but the actual and urgent necessity of the case could justify. Now, when the noble Earl stated, that he had made that alteration, he expressed his surprise, that the noble Earl had not given the House any information to enable them to understand distinctly why he had taken that course. He had stated his satisfaction at the alteration, but he wished to know distinctly the grounds on which it had been made. In looking at the voluminous documents that had been laid on their Lordships' Table, he found, that neither the 2 R |