tions amongst the clergy. Every parson] said, it should first of all, if not excluwas a Corporation sole. A Bishop was a sively, be applied to the purposes of reCorporation sole. Deans and Chapters ligious and moral education were Corporations in the aggregate. All principles of the Established Church. these were trustees of different properties. The source from which the fund came Now, he would just call upon their Lord- naturally indicated the objects to which ships to look at the scheme of those who it should be applied. He was as great an said, that if one farthing of the surplus advocate as any one for equal instruction fund were taken, it would be a violation to all, without respect of condition or of the Church property, which was sacred, creed; but when a fund originally belongand that it would be the same as taking ing to the Established Church was to be their Lordships' property. They, however, directed to the purposes of education, it had a plan of their own. Their plan was but fair that it should first of all, if was, to take from each of these different not exclusively, be appropriated to that parties their separate properties, form them object within the bounds of the Protestinto one aggregate fund, and equalize all ant Church itself. As to the Catholic clerical incomes. Was ever a more absurd Church having one single fraction of a and contradictory argument heard? To farthing of the fund, no noble Lord who illustrate it he would suppose a proposal sat on that side of the House, no not to take the noble Duke's (the Duke of even the noble Earl himself who had Wellington's) property, the property of spoken so warmly on the subject, would. the noble Earl opposite (Earl Grey), and more strenuously oppose such a proposihis (the Lord Chancellor's) no-property, tion than he would, if such a proposition and, uniting them into one fund, to give could for a moment be conceived. A reit all to his noble friend near him (Lord ference had been made to certain great Holland). That was one plan. The authorities- among others to Dr. Paleyother was to take the same three proper- on the question of Church establishments. ties for the purpose of equalizing them. That celebrated divine and ethical philoThis latter was the no-spoliation doctrine, sopher had maintained the doctrine, and in which it was quite clear the principle argued it with his usual force and vigour of interference was fully recognised. of understanding, in which, if ever "Ay," said some noble Lords, "but this in- equalled, he certainly had never been quiry can have only one result. The very surpassed, that an Established Church small proportion of Protestants through- was necessary as contradistinguished from out Ireland, and the large amount of the the voluntary system; but Dr. Paley revenues received for their spiritual in- added his qualification-the Established struction, must be known, and it will Church ought to be the religion of the follow that all men will see that there is a great majority of the people. Indeed, he surplus." Well, then, at the worst, let it went so far as to say, speculatively, no be applied to the purposes of education doubt, and following this principle to and charities belonging to the Established rather an excess, that when the religion Church. If it were so, as they appre- changed, the Established Church ought to hended, he had no knowledge of the fact. change too, forgetting ten thousand cirLet them have an inquiry, and let them cumstances which should modify the proawait its result. The inquiry was intended position, and to which he had not adverted. to be fair and impartial, in order to afford Archdeacon Paley was not the only an opportunity to the Irish Church to tell authority upon that point; Bishop Warits own story, as well as to those who burton held the same opinion. But he doubted the use of that Establishment as disclaimed the doctrine; at all events at present constituted to tell their tale. that was not the moment to moot it; but There were so many opposite accounts- this he would say, that no greater curse one man maintaining there would be a could befall the people of Ireland-no great surplus, another a moderate surplus, greater danger could arise to the liberties while a third declared there would be no of Ireland and England, than anything surplus at all, that some inquiry was ab- which would tend to install the Catholic solutely necessary. But supposing there as the established religion of that country. was a surplus-he was only arguing the Liberty would not be safe, and, in his matter hypothetically-if there was a opinion, as a Protestant, religion, in such surplus, as had been most justly and fitly I a case, would be no better off than liberty, He hoped he had now said enough to re- | fairly, impartially, without flinching as lieve himself and his noble and right hon. without violence, neither leaving undone colleagues, all of whom agreed in the nor overdoing what ought to be done, men proposition, among whom there existed of moderate though firm, of honest yet not the slightest shadow of a difference of conciliatory temper, and habits, having opinion on the point-relieve them, he been selected for the task; and when said, from any suspicion, if suspicion that task should be performed, when their could still lurk after the declarations report was produced, it would remain for made by his noble friends on the opposite Government to propound, and for Parbenches, that any notion of an attempt liament to determine, the course which towards establishing the Catholic Church should be pursued. The noble and had even for a single moment entered learned Lord then adverted to the manner their imaginations. He would go further: of putting the Great Seal upon the Comhe did not think the enlightened and mission to which the noble Duke (the liberal Catholics themselves were at all Duke of Wellington) had called attenfavourable to their religion being establish- tion. His noble friend (the Earl of ed as a political Church. They would Ripon), whose departure from office, as object to it as strongly on religious prin- a most honest, honourable, able, and ciples as any could be found to object to useful colleague, he most deeply regretted, it on political grounds. He had been sorry and no man would hail with more pleato hear during the debate something like sure the passing away of that temporary an attempt to sound a religious alarm- cloud which obscured his noble friend at a religious outcry in the country, as if present. His noble friend, it was well that were the time to make such an known, held the Privy Seal till last unholy, impolitic, pernicious, and, only night. This circumstance rendered a on the lips of fanatics themselves, honest, writ of emergency necessary. It did not, appeal to the religious prejudices and however, at all commit his Majesty party zeal of the people. He referred to more than the ordinary course, for the a noble Earl (Winchilsea, as we under- sign manual was always requisite to put stood), who declared that by agitation the Great Seal in motion in these cases. they had lost much, and therefore they He would observe, in conclusion, that might hope by agitation to get something a right reverend Prelate had recommendback. The right reverend Prelate, too ed the Sovereign in such case to refuse (the Bishop of Exeter), seemed disposed to signing the Commission, and, rejecting join in the new firm of politico-ecclesiastical the all but unanimous opinion of the agitation. But he (the Lord Chancellor) House of Commons, to turn them back had no great apprehension as to the result. on their constituents. He (the Lord In the first place, to agitate well had re- Chancellor) was surprised, that any friend quired in other instances a very different of the Irish Church could wish its recapital from that which this new pious venues exposed to the peril of a relifirm had established. Honesty might gious outcry raised by a minister against have a great deal to do, he had no doubt the representatives of the people, and by it had, in the signal success which had advising his Sovereign to refuse acceding attended agitation in Ireland; but if to the all but unanimous prayer of Parhonesty, however great, had been the liament. If he had been a friend to all only capital applied, sure he was, its the abuses of the Irish Church as he was "rents" would have been much less con- a friend to its usefulness and perpetuity, siderable. He was therefore comforted and therefore an enemy to those abuses by the hope, that if they persisted in carry- and a determined friend to their extirpaing their threat into active execution, tion-if he was as friendly to all such as their failure, owing to the good sense of he was hostile, he would say, God forbid the people of England and Ireland, would he should ever live to behold, or the be as signal and complete as it deserved; Establishment should ever see the day, and a defeat more signal and more com- when so reckless, so desperate a course plete than it deserved he was not possessed as a right reverend Prelate recommended, of any language strong enough to describe. should be adopted by a Minister of the The Ministers were about to lay the Crown. Commission on the Table, and then it would be carried into effect honestly, The Duke of Cumberland, spoke as follows: I do not rise, my Lords, at The Duke of Richmond, was only anxious to explain, after what had fallen from some noble Lords during this debate, that a letter from the Lord lieutenant of Ireland was submitted to the Cabinet previous to the meeting of Parliament, in which there was a recommendation for the appointment of a Commission; the Cabinet did not then discuss this recommendation, neither was the question again brought before the Cabinet; and their Lordships would be aware, that the Ministers who had receded resigned their offices at five o'clock on Tuesday, the 27th of May. this late hour to prolong this debate, but | and never will, consent to any alienation I cannot permit one assertion of the of Church property. noble and learned Lord to pass unanswered. The noble and learned Lord accuses this side of the House of debating this evening upon what he terms a phantom he says, that not one of us know or has read the Commission which has been moved for, and that that Commission is not yet upon your Lordships' table. This is true, so far as our ignorance of the exact wording of the Commission goes; but, my Lords, I deny that we know not its contents, for the noble Lord who is the leader of the Ministerial party in the other House, said explicitly, that the purport of this commission was to ascertain the revenues The Earl of Wicklow said, in reply, of the Irish Church, the number of there was one sentiment which he heard parishes, and their comparative popula- from the noble Lord opposite which gave tion as to Protestants and Papists, him satisfaction, when he spoke of the adding that his Majesty's Ministers meant necessity of maintaining the dignity of that to act on this report to its full extent, House. But the dignity of their Lordand that, if any surplus revenue should be ships' House was not maintained by the found, they would commit an act of highest officer of that House getting up spoliation by employing it for other pur-in his place and charging a right reverend poses. The noble Earl at the head of Prelate with ignorance. The noble Lord the Government, and the noble and had also charged him and others with learned Lord on the Woolsack, have ignorance, yet failed to prove it. to-night, denied this so far as to declare, He said, that the document was that not one iota of that surplus shall be not before the House, and therefore given to the Catholics. If I am not noble Lords evinced ignorance in speakcorrect in this, I require immediately to ing of its contents. But he (the Earl be set right-[Lords Grey and Brougham of Wicklow) heard the declarations of the here nodded assent.]-I take the assent noble Lord's colleagues in the other of the noble Lords as an acknowledgment House, and from these he was able to that I am right in saying, that they have judge of the nature and object of the this night disclaimed any intention of ap-measure, and, on the strength of them, propriating any portion of the revenues of declared that he had no confidence in the the Church to the Catholics. I cannot Government. The noble Lord, and other sufficiently express my gratitude to the noble Lords in that House, stated difnoble Earl who brought forward this Mo-ferent grounds in support of the Comtion, as certainly my alarm for the Church mission from their colleagues in the other was increased after the noble Lord's House. His Majesty's Ministers in the declaration in the House of Commons, other House declared, that the object of followed by similar declarations of his the Commission was to carry the Resocolleagues in that House. How his lution of the member for St. Alban's into Majesty's Ministers in this House, after effect; and his Majesty's Ministers in their declarations here to-night, will come their Lordships' House declared that the to an understanding with their colleagues Commission was merely one of inquiry, in the other House, I am at a loss to make and had no reference to those Resolutions. out; of course, there existed a greater Amidst such conflicting statements how difference in the Cabinet previous to the could their Lordships arrive at the fact? resignation of its late members, than The noble Lord quoted a petition as the there does at this moment. How far his ground of the Commission; but he Majesty's Government are united at this could not forget the nature of the measure moment, I leave to them to settle amongst of last Session; and what he now alleged themselves. Before I sit down, my for the Commission was absolutely proLords, I beg to declare, that I never can, Ivided for by the Bill of last Session. The Motion was agreed to. He would say, that the views of the noble | upon the subject. The instructions to the Lord who lately held the Privy Seal was Commissioners stated, that "if the evils a drag-chain on the headlong career of of the system appeared to be diminished, the Government. He (the Earl of Wick- or to be stationary, it would be better to low) knew his own duty, and need not endure them than to incur the probable be told by the noble Lord what it was. hazard of an extensive alteration." As At all events he would not be disposed to the poor-rates, it appeared that though to pay deference to the opinion of any they had augmented of late years, yet, that one who would maintain, that Parliament in the last year they had diminished four should yield to clamour. per cent. all over the kingdom; so that, according to the rule prescribed to the Commissioners, the House ought not to interpose, and the Bill upon the Table ought to proceed no farther. At least Parliament ought to pause and investigate the fact before it ventured to make so extensive an alteration. The House, in fact, treated the subject as if the poor had been guilty of some crime, when the fact was, that neither Magistrates, Overseers, nor poor were in fault: the fault lay in the acts of the House itself, and it was so duly sensible of that fact, that it was afraid to investigate the causes of the present condition of the poor. The Commissioners had now and then let out facts HOUSE OF COMMONS, MINUTES.] Bills. Read a third time:-Spring Quarter Sessions; County Rates. Petitions presented. By Mr. VERNON SMITH, from Belper, in favour of, and from Smisby, against, the Claims of the from the same Place, against the Poor Law Amendment Dissenters; from two Places, against, Drunkenness; and Bill. By Viscount EBRINGTON, and Messrs. BROUGHAM, NORREYS, Colonel WILLIAMS, Messrs. BLACKBURNE, from the Sheriff and others of Kent, against Tithes.-By Sir JOHN SEBRIGHT, from Hertford, against the Importation of Corn from Jersey, &c.-By Lord ROBERT MAN NERS, Lord NORREYS, Lord JERMYN, Sir ROBERT INGLIS, Mr. ESTCOURT, Mr. HALFORD, and Sir EDWARD KNATCHBULL, from several Places,—against the Admission of Dissenters to the Universities, and for Protection to the Church of England, and against the Separation of Church and State.—By Lord JOHN RUSSELL, from Perth, for Vote by Ballot.-By Mr. E. COOPER, from Sligo, for the Re-establishment of the Linen Board, and for Relief for the Separation of Church and State.-By Mr. ATHERLY to the Linen Trade.-By Mr. OSWALD, from Kilwinning, that did not quite make for the end they had in view, pleasing those who appointed them, and it was in evidence in their Report, that in the parish of Breed, in Sussex, fifty years ago, there was but one cottage that did not belong to the labourers who occupied them: now there were but two cottages the property of labourers, 182 of whom were upon the rates. In another place the labourers formerly brewed their own beer: now they neither brewed beer nor drank it. In the Report of the Agricultural Committee it was stated, that a want of employment was one of the great causes of the increase the Lord's Day Bill; from Ashton-under-Lyne, for the of the poor-rate, and that this want of emBy Sir ROBERT INGLIS, from Heckmondwicke and Plymp-ployment occurred while at the same time a and Colonel WILLIAMS,-against the proposed Measure of Church Rates.-By Sir E. KNATCHBULL, from five Places, against the Beer Bill, and against Drunkenness.By Mr. OSWALD, from Largs, for Simplifying the Proceedings in Courts of Justice; from the Parochial Schoolfor a Better System of Church Patronage in Scotland. By Lord DALMENY, from Tarbolton, for Protection to the masters of Ayr, for an increased Stipend; from two Places, Church of Scotland.-By Sir ROBERT INGLIS, from Clapham, &c., against the Separation of Church and State.— By Colonel WILLIAMS, from Staley-Bridge, in favour of Remission of the Sentence on the Dorchester Labourers. ton, for the Better Observance of the Lord's Day. POOR LAWS' AMENDMENT.] Lord Althorp moved the Order of the Day for the Committee on the Poor Law Amendment Bill. On the Question, that the Speaker leave the Chair Mr. Cobbett expressed his wish, that the House would inquire into the cause of the increase of pauperism before it passed this measure; it would thus ascertain whether it was necessary to pass it at all. If it were found that the evils had not increased, or that they were stationary, it might not be wise to legislate large quantity of land either was entirely uncultivated, or stood in need of better cultivation. Now what he (Mr. Cobbett) wished to know was, what the cause was of all this? He thought it ought to be explained before they proceeded with the Bill, the tendency of which was more than half to revolutionize the country. Before they proceeded with that Bill, they ought to solve the problem contained in the passage which he had referred to in the Report of the Agricultural Committee. It was his intention on the next occasion when it was proposed that the House should resolve itself into this Committee to move that, before any further Mr. Clay wished to ask the noble Lord, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, whether it was not his intention to admit of appeals against the decisions of the Poor-law Commissioners being moved by writ of certiorari into the King's Bench. proceeding with the Bill, an inquiry | establish an absolute irresponsible power should be instituted of the causes of the which no Court of Law could control. great evils which existed under the pre- The question was, did it become the House sent Administration of the Poor-laws; of Commons to intrust such a power with and also that a copy of the instructions any man or body of men whatsoever. Unwhich had been given to the Barristers less the writ of certiorari was allowed to who drew up the Bill should be laid on exist as at common law the first part of the Table. the Amendment which he understood the noble Lord was to move to the Bill would pass for nothing at all. The noble Lord was really about to establish a perfect tyranny unless he admitted of the control of the Court of King's Bench, or of some control besides that of submitting the Lord Althorp did not see any import-orders of the Commissioners to the Secreance in retaining that clause which gave tary of State. the Commissioners the power of acting Lord Althorp explained, that his obas justices of the peace; but with respect jection to allowing the orders of the Comto the clause which provided that the missioners to be removed by writ of cerorders framed by the Commissioners tiorari to the Court of King's Bench arose should not be removable by writ of cer- out of the delay which such a proceeding tiorari into any of his Majesty's Courts of was calculated to produce. But he reRecord, he did not think, after the best peated, some unobjectionable mode of consideration he had been able to give ascertaining the legality of the Commisthe subject, that it would be desirable to sioners' orders could very probably be remove that clause from the Bill. If, devised before the termination of the however, before the Report of the Com-Committee. He did not so much object mittee any mode could be devised of to allowing a question to be raised trying the legality of the Commissioners' orders, without suspending them, he should not be indisposed to adopt it; but to proceeding by writ of certiorari he decidedly objected, because it would have the effect of suspending the Orders of the Commissioners, and interfering very inconveniently with the action of the Bill. respecting their legality previous to their operation, as he did to having their legality disputed after they had been acted upon. Mr. Grote trusted, that the powers of the Commissioners would not be crippled. If the efficiency of the measure was destroyed, the House would incur the odium of passing an unconstitutional measure, without having the consolation of being able to derive any benefit from it. Sir James Scarlett conceived, that the noble Lord, by adhering to that clause, was about to establish an absolute tyranny on the part of the Commissioners. These Sir Robert Peel said, the orders of the officers would not be responsible for any Commissioners would contain matter of a of their conduct under the Bill; no action mixed nature, being both legal and policould be brought against them; there tical; and he, therefore, did not think would be no tribunal to try the case or to that they could properly be submitted correct anything they might do. He for to the consideration of his Majesty's one did not think that the people of Eng-Courts of Record. There was a great disland were disposed to submit to such a power, either in the Poor-law Commissioners or in that House itself. If the Commissioners were under any obligation to make only legal orders, who was to judge of the legality unless it were some of the superior Law Courts? This would be the only remedy. An action must be brought in order to ascertain whether the orders of the Commissioners were legal; but by the Bill the Commissioners, it seemed, were to be relieved from all responsibility. The noble Lord was about to tinction between applying to a court of justice by writ of certiorari, on a specific question of law, and going there to get its sanction to a whole code of laws before they were issued. The House resolved itself into a Committee. On the 21st clause, requiring the Commissioners to inquire into the expense of the poor belonging to each parish for three years, being read, Sir Henry Willoughby said, that he felt great objection to this clause, as it gave to |