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the child was threatened to be sworn to a party, and, by the threat, money was extorted from the individual sought to be charged. He knew instances where 10. and 201. had been so obtained, in sums of 5s., 10s. and pounds, from the young men resident in the neighbourhood of the pregnant woman, who eventually swore the child against a poor and perfectly innocent man, from whom nothing could be recovered by the parish. Such a method of proceeding was stated in the Report of the Commissioners appointed to inquire into the state of the Poor-laws. It was there also pointed out, that the practice was not unfrequent in garrisons for the females to swear the children to soldiers from whom nothing could be recovered, but who were nevertheless liable to punishment. This went completely to the encouragement of immorality in the females of this country, and as a proof he would instance a case where a family of five sisters were the mothers of between twenty and thirty bastard children, and all of whom had gone round to the young men in their parish, and extorted money from them in the manner he had already stated. So long as the oath of the mother was sufficient to fasten the charge on an individual, all these evils would continue.

Viscount Howick was most anxious to have avoided taking any part in the present discussion, but there was one single point of extreme importance in the consideration of the present question, which as yet had not been mentioned. He alluded to the consequences which arose from making the birth of a bastard child penal in one way as against the father. In point of feeling the father was, he admitted, a more blamable party in the transaction than the female, but the Legislature ought not to be guided by feeling, but by practical effects. He contended that a much greater mischief arose from compulsory marriages, which necessarily must take place if by any modification of the present Bill the father was exposed to punishment, than from the adoption of the plan proposed by this Bill. Under the Amendment which was contemplated by the hon. member for East Somerset, a poor labouring man who might be charged with a bastard child would have the option of either going to prison, or marrying the mother. He feared that the latter alternative would be but too generally chosen; and he put it to the Committee whether any pecuniary advantage to the parish could for a moment be put in com

petition with the extreme mischiefs consequent upon teaching the lower orders of the people to disregard the sacred tie of marriage. There was an instance which served to illustrate the evils of this system, and which when he mentioned it would, he was sure, be remembered by every Member present. About five or six years ago the public had been horrified and disgusted by the perpetration of a most dreadful offence in the neighbourhood of Brighton. That offence was the murder of a woman, whose body was cut up into different parts and buried in divers situations in the vicinity of that town. On investigation it turned out that the woman was of notoriously profligate character, whom a labouring man had been compelled either to marry or to go to prison on her oath that he was the father of her bastard child. Though the labouring man at the time contemplated a marriage with another woman, he chose the last alternative, and the result was, after a wretched and miserable cohabitation, that he in concert with the other female, perpetrated the horrible crime for which his life was forfeited to the law. Such was one of the effects of compulsory marriages, and such marriages would continue to be effected if labouring men remained so circumstanced as under the existing laws relating to bastardy. The instance he had alluded to showed what might be expected from compulsory and ill-assorted marriages of this kind, which he contended would do much more mischief than could arise from any increase of payment or charge upon parishes themselves. He contended, that those great towns by which objections had been raised to this part of the Bill would judge most unwisely, in a pecuniary point of view, if they persisted in seeking an alteration, because another effect of the Bastardy-laws, every man was aware, was to lead to those early and improvident marriages, which tended greatly to increase the burthen of parochial rates. Nineteen out of twenty of those marriages took place, because labouring men entertained the notion that it was better to marry than be committed to prison for the maintenance of the bastard; and early compulsory marriages would be continued by the adoption of the Amendment of the hon. member for East Somersetshire. In reference to another objection which had been raised to the Bill as it stood, he was anxious to mention one extraordinary fact, which he had from unquestionable authority. In the town of Maestricht a foundling hospital, formerly

existed, into which illegitimate children were received without inquiry. Notwithstanding great doubts were entertained and expressed as to infanticide and all those other evils which had been dwelt upon by the hon. member for Worcester and others, that hospital had recently been closed. The result was, on subsequent examination, that instead of infanticide having increased, a diminution had taken place in the number of births of illegitimate children, in the ratio of 100 to six. With these facts before him, he could not think that the large towns of this country would find from the operation of the Bill as it now stood those inconveniences which had been anticipated by some hon. Members.

Mr. Pease would not shrink from the responsibility he incurred by stating, that after deliberate consideration he was impressed with the opinion that the clause as it stood was calculated to effect important good to the community. He was satisfied, from personal observation, that the present system was pernicious, and that if many young women had been allowed, as in many instances they were willing, to volunteer the support of their own illegiti mate children, their shame would have been screened by their friends, and the probability in such cases was, that they would have returned to a respectable course of life. The Bill as it stood would, he was convinced, do good, and therefore should have his support.

in the Amendment intended to be proposed; and he must especially allude to the case pointed out in the 99th page of the Report of the Poor-laws Commissioners. He meant the cases of Irish labourers seeking employment in this country, who got the mar riage ceremony performed by Roman Catholic priests in a manner that is illegal under the present law, and who, on seeking parochial relief, declared that they were not married legally, and thus their families, consisting of eight, ten, or twelve children, became chargeable on the parish, while the fathers were allowed to go scot free. This was an evil which prevailed to a very great extent, and which called for a remedy. He con tended that the alteration of the Bastardy. laws ought to form the subject matter of a distinct and separate Bill, and that as even the present Bill was not contemplated to be brought into force until the next summer, there was ample time for the deliberation, instead of making so important a change after about an hour and a half's debate.

Lord Althorp denied, that he had taken the House by surprise by consenting to any alteration in the Bill; on the contrary, he had not assented to any alteration what-· ever. He had certainly stated, that if the House objected to the Bill, he thought the least objectionable alteration in it would be that proposed by the hon. member for East Somerset. The hon. member for Dover seemed to think, that neither, he (Lord Althorp) nor the hon. member for East Somerset had kept faith with the House. He denied the imputation; and with respect to the hon. member for East Somerset, he begged to say, that that hon. Member had actually printed and circu

Mr. Halcombe considered, that the better course would be to take these clauses out of the present Bill, and submit them in a distinct measure for the Amendment of the Bastardy-laws. At the same time the present Bill ought not, in his opinion, to be stopped, so far as it related to the alter-lated the Amendment he intended to proation of the Poor-laws. He scarcely knew what was the proposition of the hon. member for East Somerset, but he understood that it went to overturn the whole existing Bastardy-laws, and to set up a system quite at variance with the Report of the Commissioners and the measure brought forward by his Majesty's Government. These sudden alterations must lead to hasty and improvident legislation, and in this respect he could not but complain that the noble Lord (Lord Althorp) had consented, on a previous evening, to strike out an important clause from the Bill without any previous notice having been given of such intention. There were several classes of cases of daily occurrence which were not at all provided for in the present Bill, or

pose, and had therefore taken the very course which, of all others, justified the present discussion. He had before stated, that there were three courses for the Committee to pursue, and he thought that one of them, namely, that relating to the postponement of those clauses, had been disposed of. If he collected rightly the sense of the matter, it was, that they should go on with the clauses. Of course they would have an opportunity of discussing whether or not it would be proper to adopt the Amendment of the hon. member for Somersetshire. That proposition would not alter the clause, but merely add to it.

Mr. Robinson in reply, said, that there was no pressing or immediate necessity for altering the law relating to bastardy, and

therefore, as the delay which he sought | feared that such a law would have the would be productive of no injury, he effect of demoralizing and brutalizing the should press the Committee to a division. people, and tend to pauperize those who They might afterwards take up the Amend- would otherwise be industrious and indement of his hon. friend, the member pendent. for Somersetshire; but he could not help observing upon the caution with which the noble Lord had abstained from saying whether or not he would support that Amendment. It was quite evident, that the noble Lord, the Under Secretary of State for the Home Department, was opposed to it; but surely that noble Lord might have spared them the recital of the horrid story of the murder at Brighton, knowing as he must that such a transaction could not operate to influence the deliberation of that House.

The Committee divided on the Amendment-Ayes 33; Noes 114: Majority 81.

List of the AYES.

Brotherton, J.
Buckingham, J. S.

Buller, C.

Cobbett, W.

Davenport, John

Fenton, John
Fielden, John
Finn, W. S.

Gully, J.

Halcombe, J.

Handley, H.

Hardy, John

Heathcote, John

Hodges, T. L.

Hughes, H.

Jacob, E.

Jervis, John

Lloyd, J. H.
O'Connor, F.
O'Dwyer, A. C.
Rider, Thos.
Ruthven, E. S.
Ruthven E.
Scholefield, J.
Shaw, R. N.
Steward, Ld. D.
Strutt, E.
Tennyson, Rt. Hon.C.
Torrens, Col.
Tyrell, C.
Vigors, N. A.

Walter, J.
Young, G. F.

Lord Althorp said, that this would be no departure from the principle of the Act of Elizabeth. By a former clause they had decided, that all relief to the child should be considered as relief to the mother. In that case the mother's parents were justly chargeable with the relief because the relief was to their own child.

Mr. Hughes Hughes said, that such a clause as this would create a difference in the law between the poor and the rich. If such a provision were adopted in this Bill, it should also be applied to the Pension-list, by which the latter would be materially shortened.

Mr. Fysche Palmer said, that the relationship of the parties gave them a legal liability, and he did not see why they were not to be bound to support the offspring of their children if the latter were unable to do it.

He

Mr. Miles was surprised to hear the assertion of the hon. member for Reading. If the hon. Member inquired, he would find, that the law recognized no relationship in the grandfather and grandmother for their advantage, and it would be most unjust to make them relations only for the purpose of sharing the penalties of their children's misconduct. Upon this topic, however, he begged to caution hon. Gentlemen against indulging in statements that differences were made between the The Clause was agreed to. poor and the rich, or that the former were On Clause 72 being read, treated with harshness or injustice. Mr. Robinson said, he would put it to was confident, that they all desired to the Committee to say whether they were benefit the poor, and he therefore regretted prepared, after having thrown the whole to hear the imputations which were so liability of supporting her offspring upon freely cast out. This being his opinion, the mother, to throw it also upon the he did not think the House, after reflection, grandfather and grandmother on her side, would adopt such a provision as that now in case of the mother not being able, from under discussion. It was manifestly unsickness or death, to do so? It was im- just to the poor. In the classes above possible that the grandfather and grand-them the law gave protection to parents mother could be held criminal in the act against the seduction of their children; committed by their daughter, and in many but any one acquainted with the habits of cases it would be a dreadful aggravation of the lower orders of society would know, sufferings already sufficiently great. Sup- that when parents were deprived of their posing the case of a labourer with a large children by seduction they had no means family, which he had with difficulty sup- of appealing to the law for redress. It portedandbrought up. He would be obliged would be therefore cruel and unjust to add to send out his daughters to service or perhaps to their privations the charge of maintainto a factory, and if they should be seduced ing the offspring of their daughters, and would it be fair to send back their children he did hope the clause would not be perto be supported by the grand parents? He severed in.

Lord Althorp said, he should not persist | sion-list were not doing any thing to sup

in retaining the clause.

The clause was struck out.

On Clause 73 having been moved, Mr. Cobbett said, he had to move a proviso, which would make the law for those who had become rich by the labour of the poor the same as for the poor. It was certainly right that grandfathers or any other relations, if they had substance and means, should provide for their destitute kindred, and the law ought to compel them to do so; and so ought all children for their parents in like manner. There could be no objection to this, and this was what the clause provided for. But it did not provide for another thing. They ought to have a trifling addition to the clause; and he meant to move it. It ran thus:-" Provided always, and in manner aforesaid, that the father and grandfather, the mother and grandmother, child or children, of any person on the Pension-list, the Sinecure-list, the List of Retired Allowances, the Widows' Pension-list, the Compensation-list, or upon all or any other list of pensions received without services rendered to the public, or in any other way receiving money out of the taxes raised upon the poor, shall, if such father or grandfather, mother or grandmother, child or children, be persons of substance, be liable and compellable to yield relief to their relations under all the penalties and forfeitures provided by the Act of Elizabeth, and that all such sions and allowances shall cease to be paid." That was his proposition. They talked of the degradation and sense of shame which the unhappy paupers ought to feel; but had the pensioners, the sinecurists, any sense of shame? If they had any, would not their aristocratic relatives keep them from preying, like paupers, on the hardwrung taxes? He might be accused of ungentlemanly conduct in talking in this manner, but he did not care for fine language and nice distinctions. When he saw so manifest a determination on the part of the House and the Whig Ministers to reduce the labouring classes to salt and potatoes, he looked upon them to be the aggressors, and they must abide by the consequences.

pen

Lord Althorp would not enter into any discussion of the principles upon which the hon. Member's observations against the Pension-list were based. He should simply content himself with reminding the House, that even those who objected to that Pen

port or countenance it by voting against the hon. Member's Amendment.

The Committee divided on the Amendment-Ayes 17; Noes 112; Majority 95. The Clause agreed to.

List of the AYES.

Blake, M. J.
Buckingham, J. S.
Butler, Colonel
Cobbett, W.
Fielden, J.
Finn, W. F.
Gaskell, D.
Gully, J.
Heathcote, J.

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O'Connor, F.
Ruthven, E.
Thompson, Ald.

On Clause 91 being proposed,

Mr. Jervis moved, as an Amendment, that the Commissioners should not, in the case of a prosecution, be privileged to plead the general issue.

The Attorney General thought the privilege should be given to them. It was quite true, that inconvenience had resulted from the privilege being possessed by Dock Companies, and other Companies of a similar nature; but that was no argument against its being conceded to the Commis sioners, who had certain duties imposed upon them, and were in many respects differently circumstanced.

The Committee divided on the Amendment-Ayes 28; Noes 112; Majority 84. The Clause was agreed to.

List of the AYES.

Aglionby, H.
Attwood, T.
Blackstone, W. S.
Blamire, W.
Bethell, R.
Briscoe, J.
Ewart, W.
Finn, W. F.
Halcombe, J.
Hughes, H.
Jacob, E.
Ingham, R.
Irton, S.
Lloyd, J. H.
O'Brien, C.

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On the 93rd Clause being put,

Lord Althorp observed, that it would be in the recollection of the House, that the debate on three or four clauses of the Bill had been postponed; but he thought it would be the more convenient course to bring up the new clauses which he had to propose, before the Committee proceeded to deal with the old ones. The clauses which he had to suggest, too, were such as he be

lieved were not likely to provoke discussion, and he would therefore at once state their purport. The first clause which he proposed to bring up was, to prevent persons, being Poor-law Commissioners, and Assistant-Commissioners, from sitting in Parliament: the second was, to limit the operation of the appointment of the Commissioners to a period of five years: the next provided, that the rules, regulations, &c., should be laid every year before Parliament-that the rules and regulations of the Assistant-Commissioners must be prepared and sealed by the Central Board : the next clause provided, that all bonds and securities and assignments connected with the jurisdiction of the Poor-law Commissioners, should be exempt from the payment of Stamp-duty.

The Clauses having been put,

Mr. Grote rose, and said, he, for one, could not help thinking that the noble Lord, by introducing the limitation of five years to the operation of the appointment of the Commissioners, would not improve the character of the Bill. He certainly entertained the fullest and firmest conviction, that when the period of the termination of the present Act should arrive, the working of the measure would be found to have been so beneficial, that the powers of the Commissioners must be renewed. Whereas, in the event of carrying this limitation, it would make the measure appear in the light of a temporary experiment merely, and they could not divest it of that character if they sanctioned this clause. The effect of such limitation would necessarily be to excite a spirit of resistance, and a degree of hope in parishes where the mal-administration of the Poor-laws might prevail; that in such cases the parishes would, if they could, retard the progress of the improved system; and they would make head against the Amendment in the laws which were proposed. The powers of the Commissioners must be diminished by this limitation. There was always a chapter of accidents in these matters, and it might fall out that when the five years should expire, the Parliament of that day might not think fit to renew the Act.

Lord Althorp was not prepared to say, that the clause he had to propose was an improvement-he perhaps did not think it was; but he thought it was, at least, no detriment to the Bill. The only practical objection which he could see in the observations which had fallen from his hon. friend, the member for London was, that VOL. XXIV. {i} Series}

by enacting, that the powers of the Commissioners should expire in five years, their powers would in effect be diminished. He could not see, that such a result was likely to occur. The reason which had induced him to limit the duration of their powers was, the fact of great objections having been made to them, as at first proposed. Those objections had been urged from various quarters. Now, he thought, that if he disarmed the objections which had been urged in that House (and he meant nothing disrespectful to the House), more especially by the country, he gained a great advantage. It was most certainly his wish, that the Bill should be passed by as large a majority as possible, and that it should be met by the concurrence of not only those within the walls, but of those beyond them on whose concurrence the success of the measure must in part rest.

Mr. Robinson thought, that this measure was to be regarded as a great experiment, and that the noble Lord was quite right in proposing this limitation, because he thereby disarmed many objections.

Mr. Wolryche Whitmore concurred in the opinion of his hon. friend, the member for the city of London. He believed, that the limitation of five years might prevent the formation of those unions which the Act sought to establish, and the erection of workhouses, as proposed by this measure. Clause added.

The other proposed Clauses agreed to.

The Earl of Darlington moved the clause of which he had given notice: "To make all tenements of the lowest description rateable property, and to be assessed to the relief of the poor; but that, in all cases, where the annual rent does not exceed 10l. the owners, and not the occupiers, shall become chargeable for the said assessment." To this the noble Lord added a proviso, to the effect that the proportion should not be as to the actual rent paid by the occupier, but upon the rack rent, as assessed by the surveyors of the respective districts.

Mr. Charles Russell opposed the clause. It would be unjust to expose one particular description of property to the effects of an ex-post-facto law; or a law which could never have been contemplated by persons who had purchased such property. Hard, however, as such a clause must operate on the owners of property, it would be sure to operate still worse upon the poor themselves. The consequence would be, that the poor would immediately flock to towns, T

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