a desire to persecute the Jews. He hoped I mitted pro forma, in order that the Amend. he had as much Christian charity as the ments which he intended to propose, should noble Lord opposite, but he did not see be inserted in the Bill, and then printed. that Christian charity towards the Jews He now found, that those Amendments called on them to unchristianize the Legis- required omissions rather than insertions lature. to be made in the Bill. He should not, therefore, require the Bill to be committed in order to be reprinted, especially as the reprinting would occasion delay, which at this period of the Session it was advisable to avoid. The principal altera

The Marquess of Westminster briefly replied:-Some of the inconveniences that had been alluded to had been experienced in Jamaica and Canada, where Jews were admitted to the highest offices. The House divided on the original questions in the measure suggested by Governtion: Contents (present 24; proxies 14) 38. Not-contents (present 80; proxies 50) 130-Majority 92.

Bill put off for six months.

122

HOUSE OF COMMONS,

Monday, June 23, 1834.

MINUTES.] Bills. Read a second time:-Registration of
Voters. Read a third time:-Greenwich Hospital.
Petitions presented. By Sir ROBERT FERGUSON, from Kirk-
aldy, in favour of the Bankrupts (Scotland) Bill; from

Scoonie, for Protection to the Church of Scotland. By
Sir ROBERT INGLIS, from one Place, against the Claims of

the Dissenters; from several Places, against the Separation

of Church and State.-By the same, Messrs. BELL,

STANLEY, BEAUMONT, Sir STEPHEN GLYNNE, Lord WATERPARK, Sir ROBERT PEEL, and Colonel HANMER, of England.—By Sir H. PARNELL, from Dundee, against the Corn Laws.-By Mr. RUTHVEN, from Dublin, against the Irish Church Establishment, for the total Abolition of Tithes, and for the Repeal of the Union.-By Mr. FERGUSSON, from Mortlock, for Protection to the Church of Scotland. -By Mr. HARLAND, from Durham, against the Church Rates Bill.-By Mr. HUGHES HUGHES, from one Place, against the Admission of Dissenters to the Universities.-By Mr. MILES, from four Places, against the Claims of the Dissenters.-By Sir JACOB ASTLEY, from Holt, for altering the Sale of Beer Act.-By Sir EDWARD KNATCHBULL, Sir HENRY HARDINGE, Sir JOHN TYRELL, Sir ROBERT PEEL, Mr. HODGES, and Mr. MILES, from a

from a Number of Places,-for Protection to the Church

Number of Places, against the Separation of Church and
State.-By Mr. MORE O'FERRALL, from Monaghan, for

extending the Lord's Day Observance Bill to Ireland.-By
Mr. J. OSWALD, from Glasgow, for the Repeal of the Law
of Entail; also, for Removing the Civil Disabilities of the

Jews; also for the Repeal of the Duty on Cotton WoolBy Mr. W. ROCHE, from three Places, for the Repeal of the Union. By the same, Mr. WALKER, Mr. DOBBIN, and Mr. MORE O'FERRALL, from a Number of Places,

for the total Abolition of Tithes.-By Sir F. BLAKE, from the Baptists of Ford Forge, for Relief to the Dissenters.

TITHES (IRELAND).] On the Motion of Mr. Littleton the Tithes (Ireland) Bill was ordered to be recommitted.

On the Motion that the Speaker leave the Chair.

Mr. Littleton said, that on making that Motion he felt that the House would expect from him a brief explanation of the alterations which it was now proposed to make in the Committee on this measure. He had on a former occasion stated, that he should move that this Bill be recom

ment had been already under the notice of the House. They consisted of the omission of that part of the measure which invested the revenue of the Church in land, and consequently of the redemption Clauses. The composition would, on the passing of this Act, be converted into a land-tax payable to the Crown, and that land-tax would be collected by the Crown in the same amounts and from the same parties who were now liable for the composition. This would continue for five years. The reasons why that period was deemed the most eligible he had stated upon a former occasion, and they were simply these--that some period was necesSary to enable the Government to give to the land-tax that value and stability which it did not possess in the character of composition. Another reason was, that five years would be required for the recovery of the annual instalments of one-fifth of the sums advanced to the tithe-owners under the Act of last Session. The amount so collected would be paid to the titheowners, subject to a deduction of 15 per cent to cover the expenses of collecting. At the end of five years it was proposed that four-fifths of the land-tax be converted into a rent-charge to be imposed on the owners of estates of inheritance. Such parties were to have the power of recovering it from their tenants and subtenants, and all who were primarily liable under the existing law of composition. The amount of these rent-charges so collected by the Crown were to be paid to the titheowner, subject to a further deduction of 2 per cent for the expense of collection. There was another alteration, however, which he must mention. In the measure which he had first submitted to the House, it was proposed that any parties now liable to the composition, or, after the passing of this Act, to the land-tax, who should voluntarily make a payment in commutation of their liability within an

Mr. O'Connell was sorry to obtrude himself on the attention of the House at so early a stage of the debate, especially as the right hon. Gentleman had thought fit to open so little of the merits or demerits of the measure under consideration.

assigned period at certain given places,, tion of Parliament. In reference to the should be allowed a certain amount of right of appeal, he would merely state discount. It was in the breast of the that it was proposed, in any parish where House to decide what the amount of that seven rate-payers to the amount of not discount should be. Government, under less than 20s. each, should send to the the assumption that these voluntary pay- Commissioners of land revenue a memoments would be neither very large nor rial stating their grounds of appeal, the very numerous, thought that it might Lord-lieutenant should be empowered to safely allow to those who made them the direct three Barristers to constitute a full amount of 15 per cent. That was Court for the purpose of revising the however a subject for further considera- amount of composition. The limitations tion. It was also proposed that any per- were very numerous, and not only the son having an estate of inheritance should grounds of appeal were restricted by exincur the rent-charge sooner, if he thought press stipulations which the House would fit. The reasons which induced Govern- be called on to enact, but other regulament to think, that it would be better to tions were proposed, which, however, it omit the Clauses which sanctioned the in- was not now necessary for him to dwell vestments in land, were the almost uni- upon, as the provisions would so soon be versal representations which were made in Gentlemen's hands. Having made by those who were its firmest supporters, this brief statement of the alterations which not only in Ireland but also in that House, he proposed in the measure, he would that the amount would be so excessive as move, that the Speaker do now leave the to be injurious to the country, and that it Chair. would lead to a great increase in the political influence of the Church. If the House should think, that a rent-charge of four-fifths the amount of tithes might be imposed without having recourse to an investiture in land, that would answer every purpose, for it would secure the clergy an income of such an amount as, considering its improved value, might be sufficient, and which they could not otherwise obtain In addition to those alterations, it was intended to insert a provision giving a right of appeal against the valuation of the amount of tithe composition in certain cases which seemed to require such a provision and under certain restrictions as to its exercise. He had stated on a former occasion, and was ready to repeat, that he fully believed the Commissioners, as a body, had discharged their duty with strict integrity and a remarkable degree of judgment. However, there might be exceptions, and in particular cases great inconvenience, and possibly some injustice, might have resulted from various causes to certain parties. The Acts of Parliament under which the valuation was made might have imposed the necessity of such occurrences in peculiar cases without any fault of the Commissioners. With a view to such cases, it was his intention to propose a Clause which would entitle parties to an appeal. He thought it would be admitted that individuals might be so circumstanced as to entitle them to the considera

Mr. Littleton begged the hon. Gentleman's pardon; perhaps he might be permitted to state one thing which he had omitted to mention, namely, that appeals would be granted under the liability of the parties appealing to pay costs, in order to prevent frivolous appeals.

Mr. O'Connell resumed.-The right hon. Gentleman's alterations related only to minor details; of course, therefore, he (Mr. O'Connell) could not vary the course of which he had given notice, and in which he felt bound to persevere. He would not enter into the details of the Bill more than he could possibly help, and still less should he attempt to discuss, except to the extent of two or three words, what had lately fallen from the right hon. Gentleman. It was manifest that the right hon. Gentleman did not mean to abide by the present valuation, inasmuch as the amount of compensation fixed by the Commissioners was to be liable to investigation, with due precautions, calculated neither to exclude just claims, nor encourage frivolous or vexatious appeals. This was perfectly fair, and Irishmen required no more on this point. They were quite ready to consent to every precaution

to prevent appeals being rendered instru- | at an end. What was the consequence of ments of annoyance to any party. Cer- the attempts to collect, and of the refusal to tainly it might be considered as matter of pay, tithes? They had last year disturbconsolation to Irish Members and the ances,-they had still a few agrarian dispeople, that the Government saw the pro- turbances, and he did not know, that priety of affording an investigation where they would ever be without them, so long it was absolutely required by the justice as the present system continued. To inof the case. He passed by this alteration crease those disturbances, they declared with approbation of its principle, and an war against the Irish people. They took expression of hope that the details would down the ensign of the Church, and raised be found suited to useful purposes. He the royal standard. They should not raise came now to the measure itself. What that standard as a black flag, with va was its real principle. It consisted in this victis inscribed on it, and war to extermi-that for the first time in the history of nation. But they did. They were now these countries, the Crown was to become making the Government turn out to levy the great tithe-owner, the King was to be tithes or land-tax, call it what they pleased. placed in a new position,-the Church Horse, foot, artillery, and marines, were to was to disappear in the collection of tithes, be employed to help to levy it. Was this in and his Majesty was to take its place, aid of the Church. They had done enough through the Attorney General, acting, in that way already. Before the Reformanot as a spiritual functionary, but as tion, there were no statutes for the collecpecuniary head of the Church. Bishops, tion of tithes, yet tithes were always colDeans, Rectors, and Vicars, were all to lected without difficulty. In the reign of disappear, and tithes were to be extin- Henry 8th, three Acts were passed for the guished in name and nature, and some- levying of tithes, from that period to the thing else of a different kind was to be Union thirty-one, and from the Union to substituted. The course proposed was the present time, eleven. Here was a any thing but satisfactory. The first total of forty-five statutes to enforce tithes, thing the Irish people required was, that which, at the end, were not so well paid the burthens of the people should be as when there existed no statute upon the lightened. Was that the case? Not at subject at all. Why were tithes paid beall. What mattered it, whether the tithe fore statutes had been passed on the subcollector was the Church, or the King, or ject? Because there was a union bethe Attorney General, or the Commis- tween the people and the clergy. sioners of Woods and Forests? What was people got value for their tithes, and the the use of changing names? What occa- clergy only received the wages of labour. sion was there for making a great and ex- Was that the case now? They had aptensive experiment for the purpose of pointed a commission to ascertain it-a altering titles, and mystifying the people commission which would report, God with words? That was neither wise nor knew when, if ever-a roving, cruising statesmanlike. It was mere dictionary commission, which, he repeated, would science. Tithes were to be called land- report God knew when or what. tax-the Church was to be represented any person want a commission for that by the King-in short, there was to be purpose? Was it not known already, that another edition of Johnson's Dictionary, the mass of the people of Ireland received with new definitions of words. That was no benefit from the Established Church, all the good to be got from the measure. and that for seventy years, a servile war, What was the mischief? For the next only interrupted by short periods of dull five years, there was to be no mitigation and sullen repose, had raged against or diminution of the burthen. Why, then, tithes? He did not like to enter into change its name? Simply because Ireland such topics-he did not like to revive rewas disgusted with the name of tithes, and ligious feuds, and feelings of antithe people had adopted a sullen, dogged Christian hatred; but he must say, that determination not to pay them. Having the cause which stained with blood the persevered for more than seventy years, in a annals of Ireland was to be found in the vain attempt to collect tithes against the attempt to enforce the payment of tithes, inclination of the people, the people had and the privileges of the Established every year become more and more resolved Church, in spite of the feelings of the not to pay them, and now they were, in fact, people. For the purposes of this argu-'

The

Did

ment, let him conceive, that the Protestant | diminution at present in the Bill? Not religion was better than the Catholic (of a single word. Five years were to elapse course he did not believe it to be so, or before a single farthing was to be lessened. he would become a Protestant to-Ireland was in a political fever; and what morrow), and then, taking the matter did they, propose in the way of a remedy, historically, let him ask those who must or mitigation, for five years? Nothing wish to make Ireland an active and whatsoever. They postponed all change strengthening portion of the empire-let for that period, and proposed to levy the him ask those to look at the effects which full amount by the exercise of the entire the Established Church had produced in power of the State. He had offered a plan that country a church begotten in vio- to the House which was suggested to him lence, nursed in blood, fed with the mi- by an hon. Member, with a view to a reseries and the tears of the people, and duction in the amount of tithes; but the productive of discontents and struggles King's Ministers totally rejected the plan. for a period of 300 years. Why was the There was to be no reduction. Alas! a Treaty of Limerick violated?-But he feud had arisen in Ireland, and discontent would not enter into such details. Let it was excited there, as if we were disposed be supposed, that the Irish were stamped to betray the national cause, by allowing with absurdity, incapable of reasoning, the existence of tithe in any shape. This and the victims of juggling priests-let all showed the feeling prevalent in Ireland. this be granted, still he had the fact, that They might say the agitators were to blame. the struggle in favour of the Established Not so. A political volcano existed in the Church had convulsed the country; and soil; the flame was not excited by the knowing that, he implored the sound and breath of agitators, the superincumbent rational portion of the English and Scotch pressure gave it force, and in the convulMembers, to take into consideration the sion, the elements of social order were state of the Irish Church, with a view to scattered to the winds. Whose was the terminate the struggle for predominance, error?-whose the fault? The hon. and and the scramble for property, and to learned Gentleman proceeded to say, that offer something to the people of Ireland he did not think the landlords were to get in the shape of conciliation. When this any bonus by this Bill. He did not think, subject was before the House on a former that they ought to be ill-treated by Gooccasion, it commenced with a scene of vernment, and converted into tithe procrecrimination between the late Secretary tors. He wanted nothing for the landfor the Colonies and himself. He was lords but that they should not be placed ready to take the blame entirely on him- in a worse situation than heretofore. He self, and he only now alluded to it for the could assure the House, that the people of purpose of reminding the House, that at Ireland had been but too much and too long the close of the discussion, he threw aside aggrieved,-they were now determined to every unpleasant feeling, and cast himself be satisfied. But the Government gave upon the House, with a view to obtain some not even a present reduction of the obmeasure of conciliation for Ireland. He noxious burthen. Was not this a time to told them then, and he now repeated, throw oil on the troubled waters, to mitithat after the defeat of the Repeal ques- gate political asperities, to quiet and trantion by so overwhelming a majority, the quillize the people? Was any attempt of Legislature stood pledged to listen to the this kind made? No; the Government just complaints of Ireland, and to give did nothing. Good God! was there ever practical relief and redress of grievances. such insanity? Five years was a century He reminded them of the declaration of in the future history of Ireland. Nations the Cabinet Minister, for which no man now reckoned, not by ages, but by days, was more grateful than himself that weeks, and months. Talk of a reduction tithes were a subject of just complaint. five years hence! Prophecy something He then threw himself on the House, and about the millennium, and he would implored it to join in that declaration, and listen as attentively. Five years hence! carry it into practical effect. He called Why, you might as well say, that in the for a diminution of the amount to be year 2,500 of the Christian era, something levied as tithes, with a view to the relief might happen to Ireland. The right hon. of the people. Had Ministers responded Gentleman's plan was to continue for five to that call? Was there one word about years. That was an eternity. MeanVOL. XXIV. {Third} 2 B

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