The House divided on Mr. O'Connell's Motion: Ayes 99; Noes 360-Majority Session, should be increased; and after, first and principal object to which the the manly declarations of the other noble attention of Government should be directed, Lord, which had drawn forth such cheers, and the first ground which he took against he trusted his hon. and learned friend allowing Dissenters to take degrees in the (Mr. O'Connell) would not think it ne- Universities was, that it would necessarily cessary to press his resolution to a division. sever those institutions from the national Mr. O'Connell said, that notwith- Church. The second ground on which he standing his thankfulness to the eloquent relied, was stronger even than the first. It member for Coventry, and his admiration was, that religion was an essential part of of the sentiments of the noble Lord, he education, and the admission of persons, could not comply with his request; he without looking to the tenets which they had to satisfy, not himself alone, but the professed, would be destructive of religious people of Ireland. He must oppose the education. The greater part of his life Bill in every one of its stages, if this had been spent in the performance of resolution were not carried; he had no clerical duties, and he had thus been taught other alternative. how important it was, to preserve this principle-the principle of religious education. tion, they must confine themselves to If they lost that essential branch of educamatters of far less importance. It was not from his own experience alone that he had arrived at this conclusion. Several noble and learned individuals then present had lent their aid in founding an academic institution in this metropolis, and he believed, that in doing so they felt an anxious desire to make religion one branch of education. Such, doubtless, was their sincere and heartfelt purpose. With that feeling they had met and deliberated on the subject, but their deliberations all proved abortive, and they were unable to adopt any scheme of religion which could be studied at the same time with the various branches of science. On these two grounds 261. HOUSE OF LORDS, Tuesday, June 24, 1834. from Oldham, for the Separation of Church and State. WICK and WINCHILSEA, and the Bishop of EXETER, from a Number of Places,-for Protection to the Established Church, and against the Separation of Church and State.-By the Bishop of CARLISLE and Lord ROLLE, from four Places,-against the Claims of the Dissenters. By the Earl of DURHAM, from several Bodies of Dissenters, for Relief from Church Rates and other Grievances. By the Marquess of WESTMINSTER, from Salford, against the County Coroners' Bill.-By Lord WYNFORD, from Chester, against the Chimney Sweepers' Regulation Bill. DISSENTERS' ADMISSION TO THE UNIVERSITIES.] The Bishop of Llandaff, in rising to present a number of petitions against admitting Dissenters to graduate in the Universities, begged leave to observe that he was not, neither were the petitioners, actuated by any hostility towards the parties against whom the petitions were directed. He did not wish those parties to be deprived of any advantage which they could fairly claim; he did not wish that they should be marked by a stigma of any kind. It was merely on the ground of self-defence that the petitioners came forward, feeling that the constitutional liberties of the country were intimately connected with the system which at present prevailed in the Universities. He, for two reasons, concurred in the prayer of the petitions. In the first place, after long studying the subject, he was clearly con vinced, that there was an essential and indissoluble union between the Universities and the Established Church, and he feared that the concession which the Dissenters called for, could only be granted at the expense of that union. Religion was the namely, that the connexion between the Universities and the national Church was, and ought to be, essential and indissoluble, and that religious instruction at the Universities could not be imparted as it was at present, if persons of all religions were indiscriminately admitted-therefore it was, that he was opposed to the measure now in progress for compelling the Universities to admit Dissenters to take degrees. It had been asserted, that though the students were called on to sign the thirty-nine articles, they were not required to understand them. Now, he could assure their Lordships that there was no laxity on this point. The invariable practice of himself and others was, to explain to the students what was the object of their signing the articles. They were signed for the purpose of satisfying certain authorities that the students were members of the national religion, a fact which they were bound to ascertain. The Petitions were brought up. The Lord Chancellor felt it necessary, after what had fallen from the right rev erend Prelate, who had alluded to the London University, to trouble the House with a few remarks. A body of highly respectable individuals had founded King's College, London, on the principles adopted in the Universities on the doctrines and discipline of the Established Church. Now, nothing could be more proper or more justifiable, than that the individuals who founded that establishment, who were all members of the Church of England, and all of whom agreed in the doctrine and discipline of that Church, should make it part of their system, if so inclined, that no student should be admitted to that University, unless he professed that religion to which they were themselves attached. Therefore, no harm whatever was done, if they exacted from the student a strict conformity with the Established Church. But it did not by any means follow, that the same plan which was applicable to King's College and to members of the Established Church, should also apply to the London University, or to any other establishment founded by persons who did not agree to the principles of the Established Church, and not three of whom perhaps agreed to any one of them. When individuals exclaimed, "But why do you set about founding an University excluding religious instruction?" He would ask them to consider and see how it was possible to found a University open to all, and yet to preserve a certain system of religious education. Was it meant to be said, that they ought not to have founded that University? Would any one get up at that time of day and say, "6 you have no right to found a University for Dissenters ?" Would it be asserted, because Oxford and Cambridge kept them out, that it was therefore intolerable to found an establishment to which they might have free access? He should like to see, at that time of day, a specimen of such a reasoner, a specimen that would assuredly be fitter for a situation in the museum of a college than in its halls. He should like to see a specimen of the animal bipes et implume, possessing the voice and figure, but no other attribute of humanity, who would get up in his place and contend that it was criminal, irreligious, impolitic, and unfair, to found a University for Dissenters. Why? Because they were debarred from going to colleges that were established by the law of the land. [The Bishop of Llandaff - I advance no such doctrine.] It certainly was the custom on the other side of the way (Westminster Abbey, where a musical festival was held), where he and the right reverend Prelate had been that morning, for several individuals to perform together. There they had trios and duets; but on this side of the way it was found more convenient, though perhaps not so harmonious, for only one to speak at a time. By taking that course, the arguments of noble Lords were shorter and more intelligible. He should now take an opportunity of saying one word relative to King's College. He had already adverted to the principle upon which it was founded. He, as Lord Chancellor, was visiter of that college; but, from a feeling of delicacy, as a promoter of the London University, he did not exercise his visitorial functions. King's College had, however, his most hearty good wishes, and he recommended it to all persons, members of the Established Church, who felt objections to the London University. If a parent did not like to send his son to the London University, he said to him, "Then let him go to King's College." For his own part, he thought that those who objected to the London University on account of religious principle, ought to have a college in accordance with the tenets of the Established Church. But it would be said, "Oh! you might find some certain system of religion, to which all Dissenters would agree.' They however, but little knew the human mind, who thought that any system could be laid down, and with reference to which all the Dissenters would agree. Many of those sects differed as much from each other as they did from the Church. He believed that some of them would rather come to the Church than agree with their brother sectarians. The law which regulated religious controversy, was very like the law which regulated gravitation—namely, it operated in the inverse ratio of the distance; and the nearer the theological disputants approached in their doctrines-the less they were divided from each other-the stronger was the power of repulsion. Those who founded the London University, were very anxious to teach Church history, biblical criticism, and all those branches upon which it was supposed that the different sects of the Church itself agreed. they found that it was impossible to do so; for the Church would not agree with the sectarians, and the sectarians would not agree with each other. They had found zealous promoters of the University amongst men of different religious professions. Mr. Goldschmid, a Jew, had lent 7,000l. to the raised on these articles. He would not give his own opinion, nor trust to his own observation on this subject, but he would refer to one of the most learned and celebrated divines-he alluded to the Bishop of Carlisle-with respect to the complicated nature of the topics included in these articles. That right reverend Prelate had stated, that there were 100 points in these articles which required the deepest attention and consideration. He who agreed with them admitted this, but very many doubted much that was contained in the articles; yet they must be at once signed by every young man who went for his education to one of the great seats of learning, where, too, he was called upon to study theology. Yes, he who was called on to study theology-who was expected to plunge inter abyssos theologia-began with this conclusive declaration before he had studied at all. But if he merely signed his name, to signify that he was a member of the Church of England, did not this imply that his mind went with the contents of that which he had subscribed? Was it not to be supposed that he had exercised his thinking powers on the subject, and that having done so, he agreed with the doctrines and subscribed to the discipline of the Church of England? Could he subscribe those articles and not impose on himself a tie that would operate in future? He could not sign these articles, de bene esse, intending to understand them hereafter, and then to retain or reject them as he might think proper. If he did so, and chose to become a Dissenter, all the college, and all the quadrangles of the college, would re-echo with a word sounding very like "apostate." It would be said "Here is a man who signed the Thirty-nine Articles, and he now goes to a meeting-house." University. That sum he had advanced to enable them to purchase land. A Dissenter had advanced as much, a churchman as much, and another, a fourth gentleman, a sectarian, as much. Of those who had raised this sum of 28,000l., no two could agree to any plan of religious education. When this was found to be the casewhen they found that no common feeling existed on the subject, those who were chiefly concerned in founding the University said, "Then, as you cannot agree with us who are of the Church, and as you cannot agree with each other, it is better to exclude this species of education altogether." This was not a matter of choice, it was the result of a controlling, of an overruling necessity. Secular matters might be compromised, but it was impossible to compromise that which was connected with religious feeling. It was, therefore, determined that the students should, in this respect, be taught at home, by persons of their own persuasion. With respect to the explanation which the right reverend Pre. late had given as to the subscription of the thirty-nine Articles at the University, he would make one or two brief remarks. It had been heretofore stated, that this was a mere form-that it was intended that the student should not know what he subscribed. He was to learn that at a future time. The test was to be swallowed first, and to be digested afterwards. He signed in the first instance, and was afterwards to make up his mind on the subject. Now, however, the right reverend Prelate told them, that explanation was given at the time; that the person subscribing must have some understanding (more or less) on the subject; and that the meaning of his subscription was, that he thereby signified himself to be a member of the Established Church. Was it not, however, natural to inquire Why do you prefer the Established Church to other religions? Why do you subscribe to its doctrines and discipline?" To answer this, demanded an exercise of the understanding, and surely those who were called on to subscribe should, in the first instance, be examined. If he were asked to sign the thirty-nine Articles, such a proceeding could only be founded, and ought only to be founded, on the supposition that he understood those articles. But how could it be expected that a lad of twelve or thirteen years, could be able to understand them? Many noble Lords in that House did not understand them. He forgot the hundred points of metaphysical theology that might be, and had been, The Bishop of Llandaff, in explanation, said, that observations had fallen from the noble and learned Lord, which he could only attribute to the imperfect attention that had been paid to himself while he spoke, or to the imperfect manner in which he had expressed himself. He had never alluded to King's College, on which the noble and learned Lord had made some observations; and with respect to the London University, against that institution he had certainly brought no charge. He was contending for the absolute necessity of some form of religious instruction being adopted for the benefit of those who partook of the general advantages of education, considering religion as the most essential branch of education; and in order to confirm his argument, he adverted to the conduct of the Council of the London University, who endeavoured themselves, though ineffectually, to introduce some scheme of religious instruction. He had stated distinctly, that he gave those individuals full credit for the sincerity of their intentions. He had said nothing that could possibly be supposed to imply a charge against them. He entertained no such feeling. me the honour to attend to, what I did say. He seems to think that I said something against the University of Oxford or King's College, whereas I never said one word in disparagement of either. My Lords, on the contrary, I did distinctly admit, that the Established Church had as much right to set up a college on a principle exclusively confined to the Church, as the Dissenters had to establish one on a principle of universal admissibility. There was nothing in this against Oxford, or against King's College. But, my Lords, this shows the little attention with which the noble Duke honoured me. It shows how little attention is paid to legal men in this House. My Lords, I do not mention this want of attention as any ground of complaint, but I do think I have some reason to complain of it when it is made the ground of building up a charge against me, not only for what I did not say, but for the very reverse of what I did say. Having thus re-stated what it was I had said, I hope I may stand acquitted of this charge which the noble Duke has urged, and to which I shall again advert by and by. Another charge which the noble Duke has brought against me, is that of getting up discussions and making long statements on the presentation of petitions. My Lords, nothing was further from my intention than to introduce any such discussion on this occasion. If the noble Duke did not hear me, and I must take it for granted that he did not, I now inform him, that I was replying to the right reverend Prelate. The right reverend Prelate was replying to some observations of mine made on a former occasion, and quoting the very words which I then The Duke of Wellington objected to the practice of entering into a discussion of important questions on the presentation of petitions. The noble and learned Lord (said the noble Duke) has himself admitted the inconvenience of such a practice, and that questions of such importance as that to which this petition refers ought to be made matters of separate and deliberate discussion, and not to be introduced thus incidentally. But, my Lords, if I was surprised at the noble and learned Lord's departure from the general and more convenient practice of the House in this respect, I was much more so at the tone of his remarks. My Lords, the University of Oxford, or King's College, ought to expect from the high station of the noble and learned Lord, that he would have defended them from any attack, instead of attempting to put them down on this occasion by mis-statements respecting their practice. My Lords, it is not true, that the student does no more at his admission than in fact stating that he is a member of the Established Church; but on taking a degree he is obliged to sign the Articles, to show his knowledge of, and adherence to, the doctrines of that Church. The noble and learned Lord knows this much better than I do; and I must again say, that in-used. The noble Duke did not honour me stead of making such statements as he has just now made, it was to be expected from the high station that he holds, that he should have been found amongst the defenders of the Universities, that he should not attempt to pull them down by statements with a view to their injury. The Lord Chancellor (who rose at the same moment with Earl Grey) said: My Lords, my noble friend (Earl Grey) to whom I would otherwise give way, was about to bear testimony to your Lordships of my utter innocence of the charges which the noble Duke has so illogically, for I must say, that the noble Duke has not improved his logic since he has been at Oxford, and so very unjustly, brought against me on this occasion. The fact is, my Lords, that the noble Duke either did not hear, or, having heard, he did not do with his attention, and it now appears that course which the right reverend Prelate | noble friends, the noble Marquess opposite was taking. Now, if the right reverend (Lansdowne) and the noble Viscount Prelate did not intend to use my words, I (Melbourne), the Secretary for the Home must say that the words "Jesuitism, Department, and several other distinguished "casuistry," and "traps for men's con- individuals, the advocates and supporters sciences, were terms which called for of education. I have already said, that some remark on my part, and I ask, my there were in the assembly youths of every Lords, was I to sit and listen to the whole age, down to boys of fourteen. I had of this, and not offer any reply? Some occasion in the course of the proceedings reply I felt I was bound to make, and to mention the name of Oxford and of having done so, I trust, my Lords, I shall Cambridge. They were received with stand acquitted of the charge of raising unmixed applause. I spoke in praise of discussions on the presentation of petitions. them, and there was not on that occasion, Now, my Lords, let me again advert to the even during the greatest hilarity of the noble Duke's charge of my wishing or evening, one expression of censure which attempting to pull down the Universities. could in any way refer to those learned I would ask the noble Duke to point out bodies. But, my Lords, they order things any one word or expression, or sentiment of differently on the banks of the Isis. In mine, which can bear such a construction; the cool retreats and shady bowers which not, my Lords, at the same time, that I the muses haunt along the margin of that would refrain from any censure or con- classic stream we have recently had a very demnation of the Universities, if I thought different exhibition. There we heard exthey deserved it. My Lords, I am not pressions of feeling, not in the hilarity of bound to the Universities by any allegiance. the evening, but in the cool of the morning, Individually I owe them nothing the when the head was free from every kind of country, no doubt, is greatly their debtor; vapour, save that which might remain from and, no doubt, the country is disposed to theological controversy, of feelings not reacknowledge the obligation. I never hissed strained by the presence of royal and illusthem. My Lords, I sat and took a part trious dukes, noble peers and senators, archin a meeting connected with the London bishops and bishops, heads of colleges, and University, of which I have long been a reverend doctors of divinity. I say on that friend, and to the institution of which-I occasion there was kept up an ancient, and hope that I may say it without vanity- I may add an infinitely harmless custom, of I in some small degree contributed, though showing their respect or the contrary for I do not stand in the same relation to it in certain names or authorities, which were which the noble Duke stands to the Uni-proclaimed in the ebullition of the moment. versity of Oxford. The meeting to which I allude was on laying the foundationstone, and it was afterwards followed by a dinner in celebration of that event. At that meeting there was present a very numerous assemblage of the patrons, supporters, and friends of the Institution, and of its students of every age, down to boys of the age of fourteen. We were honoured on that occasion by the presence of a royal Duke. I do not mean the illustrious Duke (the Duke of Cumberland) now present, his Royal Highness attends only to Dublin meetings, and certainly my appearance at the late installation at Oxford would not have excited more surprise than the presence of his Royal Highness on the occasion to which I have just alluded. I do not mean by this to insinuate that the royal Duke now present was unfriendly to our institution; he may differ from us on many points, but I am sure we have his good wishes, as far at least as his conscientious support of education will permit. At this meeting there were, also, present my My Lords, I do not blame this, I think it harmless that certain names should have been put forth to excite the approval or disapprobation, as the case might be, of those present. I was placed among the latter, but of that I do not complain, for I feel that I was in very good company, and among others, in the company of one who is as great an ornament to the University of Oxford as he is to that right reverend Bench. I repeat, my Lords, that I consider all this very harmless, and I mention it only to show that I am not bound by any allegiance to Oxford. At the same time, I have not said any thing against it, nor any thing which could bear the interpretation that I have a wish to pull down the Universities. My observations were directed, and my objections were made, to the mode of subscription to the Thirtynine Articles, and to the interpretation put upon that subscription by the right reverend Prelate. I commented upon it, as your Lordships will recollect at the time; and upon that comment the right |