and bring it forward as a resolution, in which these letters should be embodied. Then the attention of the House would necessarily be drawn to it, and the eyes of the country opened to the conduct of the public functionaries. Mr. Gisborne said, that the charge against the stipendiary magistrate was one of a most serious nature. And as it had been asserted that the Solicitor-General had sent down money to Dungarvon for electioneering purposes, it was impossible that the matter could be passed over without inquiry. Still he thought that the hon. and learned member for Cork county was anything but discreet in bringing the subject before the House without giving the hon. member for Waterford notice of his intention. Mr. Feargus O'Connor explained. It had been communicated over and overjagain to the hon. member for Waterford, that this subject would be brought forward, but the hon. Member did not choose to appear. The letters were only that morning put into his hands, as it was the duty of the hon. member for Dublin to present them. He had only intended to speak to the petition. subscription. The right hon. Secretary, if he had any regard for the dignity of the Government and the honour of his friend, ought to make his belief certainty, and come forward himself with the proposition for a Committee. If the Solicitor General should deny the truth of the allegations, he would believe him, because he knew that he was a man of private worth and honour; but he should get an opportunity of vindicating himself. If the Attorney or Solicitor-General of England had done what the Solicitor General for Ireland was charged with having done, there would be an outcry from one end of England to the other. There was another charge in the speech of the hon. member for Cork which the right hon. Secretary did not attempt to disprove. It was that against a stipendiary Magistrate for requiring 6007. bail from a working shoemaker. How did the right hon. Secretary seek to justify such an enormous amount of bail? Surely he was as much bound to explain the conduct of the stipendiary magistrate, a dependant on the Government, quite as much, if not more, than he had to explain and defend that of the Solicitor General. But the right hon. Gentleman had perhaps not heard of the case before, otherwise he would certainly be able to give some information on the subject. The right hon. Secretary had indignantly denounced the use of a private letter; but he remembered the time that the present Lord Chancellor of England, when the organ of the party in that House with which the right hon. Secretary now acted, had read a letter of Mr. Saurin, the then Attorney General of Ireland, surreptitiously obtained, at least as surreptitiously as the present letter, and when Sir Robert Peel taunted that noble Lord with having so used the letter of Mr. Saurin, that noble Lord turned round upon him and asked "What, then, was the conduct of the Tories when they resorted to stolen Mr. Maurice O'Connell said, that the letters for evidence against the Queen ?" Gentlemen who were now in power, and If, Mr. Saurin's letter had been made who complained so much of the use made use of by the Whigs and the Queen's of a confidential letter, had not scrupled to letters by the Tories, he did not see how avail themselves of a letter similarly obtaineither party could fairly object to the pre-ed well known as the the "tame-elephant sent letters being used in the same manner, or why the correspondence of the Solicitor General for Ireland, on such an interesting topic, should be kept hermetically sealed. He hoped his hon. friend, the member for Cork, would not let the matter rest as it was; but that he would take it from its present form of an appendage to a petition, Colonel Perceval said, it was wasting the time of the House to spend it in debating as to how those letters were obtained, as in his opinion all the cases quoted were equally discreditable. Mr. Saurin had as much reason to complain of a breach of morality as the present Solicitor General for Ireland as the letters of both were obtained by unhallowed means. He hoped, however, that the matter would be fully investigated. Mr. Lambert said, he could never consent to an inquiry founded upon documents obtained in the infamous manner in which the present letter had been obtained. If the accusation was brought forward upon evidence fairly obtained, he would not object to the fullest inquiry. letter." The hon. member for Wexford seemed to think, that it was no matter how foul the means used might be, so that they were concealed. The Petition to lie on the Table. ESTABLISHED CHURCH.] Sir George Murray: The petition which I hold in my hand is a petition for the protection of the Established Church, and against the separation of Church and State. As it has been transmitted to my care from a parish in the county of Devon, a part of the kingdom with which I have no natural connexion, and by persons to whom I am not personally known, I wish to explain in what points I fully concur with the petitioners, and in what there may be, possibly a shade of difference between my opinions and theirs. I most fully concur with the petitioners in my desire to protect the Established Church; and I also most fully concur with them both as to the existence of endeavours to separate Church and State, and in my determination to oppose those endeavours, in whatever form, and under whatever pretext they may be made. My understanding of the separation of Church and State is this, that it is the casting off, on the part of the State, of all connexion with, and all care about, the religion and the morals of the people. I join the two because I think that although it may, perhaps, be possible for an individual to be a moral man, although he is not quite so assiduous as his friends might wish him to be in the discharge of his religious duties, I hold it to be impossible for a nation to be moral which is not also religious. But, Sir, the separation of Church and State as I understand it is the adoption of that principle which I have sometimes heard advanced in this House, that every man is to be left to call in his spiritual adviser, as he would call in his lawyer or his physician. I cannot give my assent to such a principle, nor can I give my support to any thing which has a tendency to introduce it. Such a system would not only sweep away at once the Established Church of England and Ireland, the Established Church of Scotland, and those Presbyterian Establishments which are aided by the State in Ireland by the grant called the regium donum, but it would produce still further evils; for, the State having thus left the religion and the morals of the people to chance, every form of superstition and every kind of fanaticism would gradually creep into the country. Allusion has been made in the petition to certain of the Dissenters who are using their endeavours for the separation of Church and State, and who couple that demand with their prayer for relief from other grievI hope that there are great numbers of the Dissenters who have no such object in view; and I am quite certain, that the ances. highly respectable body of Presbyterians in the north of England have not only no such view, but that they sincerely respect the Established Church, and deem themselves to be closely connected with that of Scotland; for I lately received from them a copy of a memorial which they had addressed to the noble Lord, the PaymasterGeneral of the Forces, by which they expressed their wish not to accept the boon proposed to be given by the noble Lord's intended Marriage Bill, unless it recognised their connexion with the Established Church of Scotland. Although I am desirous, and have always been so, for relief being given as far as possible from every real grievance connected with religious belief, I can never consent to support any claim which connects itself with the principle of the separation of Church and State. I have alluded to the regium donum in Ireland; I think that grant is made upon an admirable principle. Whenever a congregation of Presbyterians is formed to a certain amount in numbers, a certain stipend is allotted to the Minister of that congregation from the public purse; and thus a link of connexion is formed between the State and the religion of the people, which contributes much to the tranquillity and harmony of the country. there is no such connexion, alienation and discontent take place. We have seen enough in Ireland of the evils which result from there being no link of connexion between the State and the religion of the majority of the people. I should be glad to see such a link established by the grant of stipends to the ministers of that Church. When I had the honour to hold the seals of the Colonial Department, I was desirous of introducing into our colonial possessions the principle of the regium donum. In the Canadas in particular, I wished to leave it open to every Christian sect to become in this manner connected with the State. And, if any sect should decline to join that connexion, then that sect would not, at least, have any just ground of complaint against those which did join it. My system was not that of casting off, but of connecting religion to the State-not that of pulling down, but of setting up-not that of taking away emolument, but that of granting it to those Christian sects which might be willing to accept it. With these explanations, I again express my support of the prayer of this petition for the protection of the Established Church, and against the separation of Church and State. When The Petition to lie on the Table. DUNGARVON ELECTION.] On the Order of the Day being read for going into Committee on the Highways Bill, and the Question put, that the Speaker do leave the Chair, Mr. Stanley said, an occurrence took place that morning to which he begged to call the attention of the House for a moment. Without having previously given him any notice of his intention, an hon. Gentleman, the member for the county of Cork (Mr. F. O'Connor), stated that morning, on presenting a petition to the House, that he (Mr. Stanley) was one, among others connected with the Government, who subscribed a sum of money to forward the return of one of the candidates at the Dungarvon election. It would have been no more than common courtesy had the hon. Member mentioned to him, particularly as he was in the House only two minutes before, that it was his intention to mention this circumstance, for which, as there was not the least foundation, he could not allow it to remain for a moment uncontradicted. Mr. O'Connell said, there was more than one mistake in this matter. He was not present at the time the matter occurred that morning. The document adverted to, however, in the discussion, did not at all authorize the mention of the right hon. Gentleman's name. If the grounds of the charge against the right hon. Gentleman were looked into, he would see there was no necessity that the right hon. Gentleman should deny the charge at all. HIGHWAYS. The House went into Committee on the Highways' Bill, and was occupied with it the whole evening. Several Amendments were proposed, and several divisions took place; one of which proposed by Mr. Cayley, deserves to be preserved. On the 66th Clause being proposed, it was moved that those should be exempt from summary penalties who might plough up foot-paths. The Committee divided-Ayes 35; Noes 35. The Chairman (Mr. Pryme) gave the casting vote in favour of the Amendment. List of the AYES. HOUSE OF COMMONS, Thursday, June 26, 1834. MINUTES.] Bill. Read a second time :-Courts of Equity Process. Petitions presented. By Mr. SHIEL, from ten Places, against Tithes in Ireland.-By Mr. WALTER, from Binfield and Wokingham, against the Poor-Law Amendment Bill. -By Lord HоTHAM, from Leominster, against the Universities Admission Bill.-By Mr. HAWES, from a Friendly Society, against altering the Act concerning those Societies. -By Colonel LYGON, from Welland, for Protection to the Church of England. LORD'S-DAY OBSERVANCE (No. 2) BILL.] The House went into a Committee on the Bill. On the first Clause, imposing a penalty for keeping open shops on the Lord's-day, being put from the Chair, Mr. Potter rose to move as an amendclause in the following words:ment, that a provision be added to the "Provided always that nothing in this Act, or the said recited Acts, shall extend to prohibit the sale of fruit, confectionary, sodawater, ginger-beer, or any other unintoxicating beverage.' Mr. Poulter regretted it was his duty such a proviso. He had received numerto interpose to prevent the introduction of ous applications to enlarge the existing law on this subject, and as he had re the other hand to prevent any diminution fused to accede to them, he felt bound on of the law, as it now stood. If the House were to make an exception of any particular trade, shops would immediately be set up in all parts of the town for the sale on Sunday of the article excepted. The amendment proposed by the hon. Member would expose him to the charge of having introduced a Bill for the violation of the Sabbath, rather than one for its better observance. The Committee divided on the original | the laws on this subject became relaxed, Clause-Ayes 38; Noes 4: Majority 34. Clause agreed to. On Clause 2 being put, Mr. Potter moved an Amendment to the effect of permittting baker's shops to be kept open till two in the afternoon, and also to permit the sale of butchers' meat, fish, or green grocery, before half past nine on the morning of Sunday. Mr. Poulter opposed the Amendment. The Bill provided, that shops for the purpose of baking should be kept open until half-past one, which gave ample time to those who sent their provisions to the baker's, without the unnecessary extension of the time to two. Mr. O'Connell said, the Bill ought to be called "A Bill to establish Baking on Sundays." He hoped the House would not sanction this Bill. It was childish legislating on such a subject as this. It was admitted, that nothing was more objectionable than legislation between master and servant on the subject of wages, and yet this Bill proposed to interfere on that subject. He hoped the hon. Member would give it up. He would put it to him seriously whether there was not a stricter religious observance of the Lord's-day in London at the present time than there ever had been before. He recollected at the period he was a student at the Temple very few families, comparatively speaking, attended divine service, whereas now nearly every family attended. The observance of the Sabbath seemed to proceed in an inverse ratio to the enforcement of the law. As the Sabbath was much better observed? If people chose to attend divine worship in the morning of Sunday, and laugh at home in the evening, why should they be prevented? For his part, he thought that was the best way of spending the Sabbath. When the Report was brought up, he should move, that it be read a second time that day six months. Mr. Poulter would appeal to the House whether the petitions which had been sent up from all parts of the country did not demand legislative interference on this subject? The evils the Bill was intended to remedy were most notorious. He had received many communications from different parts of the country, complaining of the increase of trading on the Sabbathday; indeed, it was only the other day he was informed by the rector of Lambeth that there was more marketing carried on in some parts of that parish on a Sunday than any other day in the week. He had also received a letter from Dublin requesting him to include Ireland in the Bill, but as the subject had been taken up by his hon. friend, the member for the University of Dublin, he declined to accede to such a recommendation. He believed such a Bill to be necessary, and should therefore not listen to the suggestions of the hon. member for Dublin to abandon it. Mr. Fysche Palmer strongly objected to many of the enactments contained in this Bill. He would put it to the House whether it was just to compel the labouring man, who perhaps had but one room for all his family, to purchase his meat on a Saturday night, and hang it up in his bed-room until the Sunday morning, in every season of the year, because it might be injurious to some tradesmen to permit the sale of provisions on a Sunday morning, or because it was considered by some persons to be a breach of the religious observance of the Sabbath. He agreed with the hon. member for Dublin that the Sabbath was much better observed now than formerly. Mr. Ward had told his constituents, that it was by their own individual exertions, and the exertions of the clergymen, that the morality of the people would be improved. The recommendation he had given had produced an entire change in their sentiments, and he had not received another application to support the Sabbath Bill. He thought that legislation on such 853 Observance. {JUNE 26} Lord's Day a subject would be attended with bad con sequences. Mr. Finch admitted the subject was a most difficult one to legislate upon; but the speech of the hon. member for Dublin would prevent any legislation on the subject. He thought this Bill would check immorality, and therefore he should give it his support. Mr. Gisborne agreed that the Sabbath was much better observed now than formerly, The hon. Member had said this Bill was only a revival of the old law. If the old law had fallen into disuse, he asked why that was? Was it not because it was opposed to the general feelings. He was of opinion that any legislation a whit beyond the general feelings on the subject would be attended with the most injurious effects. It was said the tradesman who refused from conscientious motives to open his shop on the Sabbath would be greatly injured by permitting any trade to be carried on on the Sunday. He was of a different opinion; he thought the conscientious buyer would always protect the conscientious seller. The feeling which once existed in the country in favour of this measure had very much cooled. Mr. Poulter denied, that any diminu- Mr. O'Connell said, as there had been mitted, merely to revive existing statutes. Mr. Beaumont hoped the hon. Member The Committee divided on Mr. O'Con- The several Clauses of the Bill were agreed to, with some verbal amendments, and after the Committee had twice divided upon Amendments tending to mitigate The House resumed, and the Report the severity of some of the enactments, was brought up. On the Motion, that the Report be received on Monday, Mr. O'Connell moved that it be received that day six months. The House divided on the original Motion-Ayes 71; Noes 26: Majority 45. Report to be received on Monday. GAME LAW AMENDMENT.] Mr. Lennard moved the second reading of this Bill. Mr. Grantley Berkeley moved, that it be read a second time that day six months. now The House divided on the question that the Bill be read a second time" The House again divided on the quesAyes 35; Noes 43: Majority 8. tion, as amended, that the Bill be read a second time that day six months-Ayes 55; Noes 24: Majority 31. Bill put off for six months. |