Q. And he can only get to that by reason of the city having permitted a transportation company to build a road through it? A. Yes, sir.

Q. And he has to be charged enough for that fare so the city gets a revenue all the while? A. Yes.

Q. Do you think it is treating him the same as Clafflin & Co.? A. Yes, because he would not have any work except for Clafflin & Co.

Q. They wouldn't have had anything either? A. Capital can take care of itself; the Almighty has regulated that; a man with $150,000,000 would take a good while to starve.

Q. If there was not some toiler to labor for something he could not live on it? A. That is a question I have challenged Servent and all those fellows on and they won't discuss it; I maintain there is no man in this country without extravagance but what can support himself; when they go into

Q. That is not quite the subject; I am trying to attract your attention to the class of men who are willing to work and trying to rise, and if you can assign any good reason why that man should be taxed for the benefit of the city I would like to know it? A. It is for the benefit of himself.

Q. If you can assign any reason why he should be compelled morning and evening to pay into the treasury of the city any sum whatever for the privilege of riding? A. Just as much as I pay the city of Buffalo for the privilege of holding my property; just exactly; these facilities are given him.

Q. Then why don't you tax everyone for driving through the streets and go back to the old toll system? A. Because people would prefer that other people should ride, and they ride themselves; that would not be civilized.

Q. It was one time? A. I know, but that has gone by; we did not have elevated roads 25 years ago; who would want to go back?

Q. Probably no one. A. My dear sir, we used to use oil lamps in the street; we are willing to be taxed for a better system now;

our park commissioners have gone back to naptha lights; you go to Cleveland and you can pick up a pin.

Q. Unless the lights go out? A. We all go out one of these days.

Q. Your notion is this, that the city morally has the right to exact every dollar it can for one of these franchises, either in a gross sum to start with, or from year to year? A. That is very

simple, my dear sir, just as you would buy any other goods and go into business; put up the franchise at auction, and let the man paying the highest take it.

Q. In order to have that operate they have to go to the public and he must be successful in its operation? A. Yes, sir, and he would not bid unless he thinks he will be.

Q. No matter whether he is mistaken or not, if that is a suitable road, accommodating the public, it must be run successfully? A. Yes, sir.

Q. From a financial standpoint? A. Yes, sir.

Q. If it can be just as desirable and relieve the laboring classes as far as possible and not take a part of their earnings and put it into the treasury, wouldn't that be as beneficial? A. How could that be done?

Q. By a reduction of fare? A. You can not do that.

Q. It is being done in many places. A. If you go to reducing fares below a paying price, as Mr. Lauterbach says

Q. I do not say below the paying prices? A. Do you know what is a better theory; competition regulates that thing and I want to say to you gentlemen there is nothing like individual enterprise.

Q. Do you see where you stand, one tearing the other to pieces? A. How?

Q. You say competition will regulate? A. Yes.

Q. Will keep the price down to the lower notch? A. It does; do you suppose the elevated people can carry for less than five cents?

Q. Supposing they were required to pay to the city 25 per cent. of their gross receipts, they would be bound to raise the fare? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Then who would pay it? A. These poor gentlemen.

Q. You say the city is morally entitled to get that 38 per cent.? A. No, I do not; there is a reasonable limit; I say competition will regulate that; the city can never regulate those things.

Q. If you and I sit down to-day, or go back to the day Mr. Field and yourself contemplated the erection of the elevated road,. with a scheme in mind that it was a good investment; you never had any doubt about it? A. Yes, we both had doubts about it; he questioned whether he could stand it until it would pay.

Q. You had no doubts but what it would eventually pay? A. No, sir; I put my service against his money.

Q. Did you divide profits? A. Not a dollar; I should have made a million out of the road, but my idea was to get the road and benefit my property, and I have not got the road to-day as they agreed to build it, simply by reason of reducing the fare; it is costing the city as much as the property owners; simply because they reduced the fare before they built the road.

Q. What was your idea? A. Let them build the road and then if they could afford it let them reduce the fare

Q. What do you think of the idea of the city owning the road? A. That is out of the question with me; I do not believe the city can own the road, because the Constitution is against it, and common sense against it, and it would be one of the politicians' machines.

Q. We can fix the Constitution all right? A. Mark what I tell you, if the city of New York undertakes to build an underground railroad and run it, it will be the sorriest day they ever saw, and particularly with the property owners that can not get away; it will bankrupt the property owners in the annexed district; they will exhaust their credit before they get there; we know what the elevated and cable and under-ground trolley would do; another thing, let the city of New York have the running of the under-ground road and it will be nothing but a political machine, and the most corrupt we have ever known, and we have known some pretty corrupt; another thing, I went to Cyrus Field and Russell Sage and Jay Gould, I went at the request of Russell

Smith, and I asked if they would take a little stock in the underground railroad; Jay Gould said, we are not foolish; I can buy under-ground railroads cheaper than I can build them; and the others would not; such men are willing to put money into anything that will pay; any child 14 years old will admit that; still they won't touch a dollar; still these property owners must stand behind such an infamous scheme and pay for the road; if they ever build one I hope to see it in operation and see how it comes out; they will never build it; we want rapid transit facilities, and we are drying up for them.

Q. What is the matter with the Rapid Transit Commission? A. They have spent $300,000 a year; they are drawing $12,000 or $14,000 a month; I attended 143 of their meetings, and I said they would not get a bid when they put it up for auction, and they did not; $55,000,000 is a big plum for men to go after; what do they care as long as the city's credit is back of them; I know exactly what the elevated people are doing; they are sitting back in the breechin and letting these fellows jack the load; they say after they build it we will buy it after being built for $12,000,000 or $15,000,000; they do not worry about the underground railroad; this commission - a great many politicians are fearful this underground road will be built.

Q. You say the property owners won't let the elevated roads? A. We did not require out of 32,000 feet- I got 29,000 feet waiving rights for damages; they said they would not build another mile of road unless property owners or a majority waived their rights for damages; I got 29,000 feet and this commission was passed out in a law passed, and where are we to day; if Jay Gould had lived we would have had an elevated road two years ago to Fort George; he was worth any ten men living; he made drawings and specifications, and, at my request, went before the commission and presented them; he said, gentlemen, if it is your pleasure that we build this road we will build it; if not, we will attend to those which we have got; and I do not think the commission ever looked over the plans; it is the grandest scheme ever devised, and they have not a word to say because they

think the people's mind is poisoned against the elevated railroad; and who is suffering for it; I wish I could open the whole thing as it looks to me; 50 property owners met the other day and asked permission to extend their road and they would not do it; they said, we have paid damages enough; we paid millions in the entire system, and we have paid damages on property benefited all the way from 100 to 400 per cent; I have seven and three-quarter lots on the corner of One Hundred and Fifty-fifth street and Tenth avenue; it would double it; I would give a station 24 feet 11 inches, and if they wanted to build a chute off from their platform into my parlor they might do it; and when it was stormy I could walk right on to the elevated road; here are the Macey people, they had some sense; instead of opposing the station they begged them to put one there, and there Ahlwart and O'Neil and other parties are using them; on Second avenue they took down their station, and then the man sued them to put it back again; they are like the Connecticut witches; if they sink they are witches, and if they do not they know they are; I hope you will give us some relief if it is in your power or the power of the Legislature, on the upper part of the island.

By Mr. Nixon:

Q. What is your idea of the extension of the elevated road? A. Within two years they should extend it to Fort George; it is now to One Hundred and Fifty-fifth street and that is One Hundred and Eighty-seventh street; that would be about two miles; the brow of the hill is about One Hundred and Ninety-fifth street; we want them to go right around Fort George, and two years extended to Kings, and within three years, extended to the city limits; it would mean $200,000,000 advancement in the property value in five years on the west side alone; all we have is this Tenth avenue cable.

Q. You think the creation of the Rapid Transit Commission was a mistake, do you? A. It was a miscarriage, and the worst kind; if it had occurred a little earlier or a little later it would have been better; still, all those men are all estimable men, but what is the doctor worth to hold the plow if he never held a plow?