and stated to him how much of that building he had taken in, and told him there would be difficulty about the buildings on the berin side near the collector's office at Montezuma. My father asked him for advice; how much he must take in where those buildings were? Mr. Seymour said the way my father did it he was satisfied with, only be sure to take in enough. My father and Mr. Seymour went on board my father's boat. It was the boat Myron Holley, used for convenience in surveying the canals.

15 Q. How much of the survey did your father complete that season, and what time did he quit?"

A. He completed about 100 miles, finished the Cayuga and Seneca, and also from Canton to Rochester on the Erie canal; he quit the 11th of November, at Rochester.

16 Q. Did Mr. Hutchinson come to your father upon the canal, at any time in the summer of 1829? And if so, at what time and place.

A.

He did, at Port Byron, in the month of August.

17 Q. Was it before or after your father recommenced surveying after his aforesaid illness?

A. It was before.

18 Q. Did you at that time hear any conversation between your father and said Holmes Hutchinson, on the subject of the survey of the canals; and if yea, what was that conversation?

A. I did hear such a conversation between them; my father explained to him his manner of surveying the canals; he drew a sketch upon paper to show the manner and with that explained to him that he run a line on both sides of the canal; he also stated to Mr. Hutchinson whenever he came to buildings encroaching upon the line of the canal, he noted them, and marked the number of feet they stood on the line he run. He explained to him how much he took on the tow path side, and also on the berm side, and stated to him that he took a check line across the canal to the station opposite, as often as convenient, so as not to let one survey run ahead of the other, to keep the survey in check on both sides, to prevent mistakes. He also stated that he took an observation to a more permanent object than the stake itself, as often as he found such an object sufficiently near to the line, and noted the course and distance of those objects in his field book.

19 Q. Did Mr. Hutchinson make any objections to said survey as explained to him?

A. He did not.

20 Q. Did Mr. Hutchinson at that time suggest any other method of survey?

A. He did not.

21 Q. Did your father pursue the same uniform method throughout his whole survey, of all the canals by him surveyed?

A. He did.

22 Q. At what time did your father finish the survey of said canals?

A. I think it was in August 1830, the field book will tell. [A. No. 335]

Cross examination by the Counsel of Mr. Hutchinson.

23 Q. What is your age?

A. Twenty years.

24 Q. Did you act in any other capacity than chain bearer in making the surveys?

A. I did not.

25. Q. Did you use the compass, or perform any other work? A. I did not.

26 Q. How much of the said survey was made before Mr. Hutchinson called upon your father at Port-Byron ?

A. When he called there in the month of August, 1829, there was about 8 miles surveyed.

27 Q. Was this survey made on both sides of the canal at the time stated in your last answer?

A. It was.

28 Q. Who carried the compass during the said survey of 8 miles?

A. My father.

29 Q. How many persons used the compass in the surveys of the canals made by your father, and what are their names?

A. They were my father, Mr. John W. Sawyer, and Mr. Benjamin Overbagh; there were no other persons used the compass to survey the canals with.

30 Q. How much of the distance did your father carry the compass?

A. The whole distance on the tow-path side from Buffalo to Canastota, and the whole of the Seneca and Cayuga canal, and the Oswego canal.

31 Q. What do you mean by a check line? And point out the same in the field-book.

A. I mean by a check line, to take the course and distance from a station on one side of the canal, to the station upon the other side across the canal.

He points out the following on the field notes: "From St. 14, across Erie canal, to St. 75, 118 feet."

32 Q. How was this measurement made?

A. By taking the course with the compass, and with a tape line. 33 Q. Did you hear all the conversation that passed at Port Byron, between your father and Mr. Hutchinson, relative to the survey?

A. I heard all that took place while they were on board the boat at that place.

34 Q Did you not hear Mr. Hutchinson suggest the propriety of making the survey on a different plan, by running but one side? A. I did not.

35 Q. Was not your father and Mr. Hutchinson in conversation on the south side of the canal, and not on board of the boat, at the time mentioned in the question before the last ?

A.

There was no conversation between them in relation to the survey on the south side of the canal, that I know of.

36 Q. Was there any other conversation relative to the surveys, between your father and Mr. Hutchinson?

A.

There was not, that I ever heard.

37 Q. Were your father and Mr. Hutchinson at Port Byron, shortly before or after the conversation you have mentioned as having taken place on board the canal boat?

Not to my knowledge before this conversation on board the boat. I know that they had none shortly after, because I went with them to the tavern, where Mr. Hutchinson got his horse and went off.

38 Q: Where did your father and Mr. Hutchinson first meet each other, on the day the conversation took place on board of the canal boat?

A. At Reed's tavern, about twenty rods from where the boat

was.

39 Q. Were you present when they met? I was not.

A.

40 Q. How long after they met, was it before the conversation took place between them, which you heard on board of the canal boat?

A. I can't exactly state the time: It was long enough for them to walk from the tavern to the canal boat; perhaps two or three minutes.

41 Q. How long after they came on board the boat, was it before this conversation commenced?

A. As soon as they took their seats, and they took those as soon as they came on board.

42 Q. Did you see your father and Mr. Hutchinson when they met at Reed's tavern?

A. I did not.

43 Q. By what circumstances did you ascertain that they met there, and came immediately down to the boat?

A. I was in bed in the morning. A person came to the boat, and asked the cook if Mr. Trumpbour was aboard. The cook said he was not; he was up to Mrs. Tremper's. He asked the cook (who was at the cabin door where I was laying.) if he could go and ask Mr. Trumpbour to come down; that Mr. Hutchinson wanted to see him. The cook went. The next I saw or heard, my father and Mr. Hutchinson came on board together, a few minutes after. I should judge the distance from the boat to Mrs. Tremper's was something less than a quarter of a mile.

Friday morning, 27th April, 1832.

The committee met, &c.

44 Q. Will you give the minutes of another of the check lines above mentioned, in the aforesaid field-notes?

A. "N. 67° 30" W. across canal to St. 1, 8 feet canal, canal 51 feet; 105 feet whole distance to St. 1."

45 Q. Will you give one more instance of a check line?

A. "From St. 16, S. 18 W. across canal, W. side feeder, Cold spring, to St. marked 1 on W. side feeder, St. being past, at 8 feet from canal, 35 feet canal and 51 feet across canal to St. making together 86 feet in the whole, leaving 43 feet for canal."

46 Q. Can you ascertain from said field-notes, at what particular place on the canal the last mentioned check line was taken?

A. I can. It is at Centerport; the field-notes specify that it was the first check line taken. The survey began at Port Byron. According to my recollection, Port Byron is from 1 to 2 miles from Centerport.

47 Q. According to said field-notes, was there a check line taken at Port Byron ?

A. There was. We began at Port Byron, and run down the tow-path side to Centerport, and then took a check line, and then run back on the berm side to Port Byron, and there took another check line.

49 Q. Are the field-notes you refer to, those taken on the ground?

A. They are.

49 Q. Do you recollect whether, at every angle of the outlines of said survey, the distance from the station to the canal was taken, or whether such was the general practice?

A. I do. It was taken at every angle throughout the whole of the survey, on both sides of the canal, where I carried the chain; which was all the way, on the tow-path side and on the berm side, from Montezuma to Centreport.

50 Q. Were the field-notes last referred to, made by your father?

A. They were.

51 Q. Is the whole survey, or the survey of both sides of the canal, on the same page of the field-notes, at the place pointed out at Port Byron? If so, point it out.

A. They are not on the same page. The field-notes were made as the survey progressed. Where we crossed the canal at any point, the fact was noted; and the notes of the survey were continued in like manner on the other side of the canal.

52 Q. How much of the berm side did your father survey? A. The Seneca and Cayuga; from Lock pit to Canton on the Erie canal, on the berm side and tow-path both.

53 Q. In surveying from one station to another, will not the field-notes be on different pages?

A. It may so happen.

54 Q. What is the distance from Montezuma to Port Byron ? A. I should say about five miles: It may be more, and may be

less.

55 Q. How many times were check lines taken between the last named places?

[This question is objected to, on the ground that it does not specify whether he is required to answer according to his recollection, or according to the field-notes.

The committee think such a specification unnecessary.]

A. There was one taken at Port Byron and at Montezuma, and one at the lock between Port Byron and Montezuma.

56 Q. How far is the lock last mentioned, at which the check line was taken, from Port Byron?

A. I do not know.

57 Q. Have you any recollection whether the distance last inquired about, is or is not less than one mile?

A. It is more than one mile.

58 Q. Is it not more than two miles?

A. I presume it is.

59 Q. Is it not three miles?

A. I cannot tell.

60 Q. In surveying the two sides of any portion of the canals, were not the field notes put down frequently in different books?

A. They were wrote down on the books as we went along; and as the pages were filled, we turned over a new leaf. Each surveyor kept his own book, and entered his minutes or notes in it.

61 Q. Were not surveys made of opposite sides of the same portion of the canals at the same time, by different surveyors? A. There were.

62 Q. When that was the case, did they enter their field notes in the same or in different books?

A. Each surveyor entered his own field notes in his own book. 63 Q. What portion of the canals were surveyed by two different surveyors at the same time?

A. From Lock pit to Buffalo, and from Canton to Canastota, and that part of the Oswego canal wherever there was a berm side.

64 Q. Will you look at the field notes, and then state how many check lines appear to have been taken from Port-Byron to Montezuma, inclusive?

A. One at Port-Byron, one at Montezuma lock, one at the junction, one at the collector's office near the junction, one at station 14, one at station 25, one at station 52, one at station 65, one at lock No. 7, nine in the whole; those are the check lines between Montezuma and Port-Byron inclusive.

65 Q. How do you know that check lines were taken at the places you have stated in your last answer; is it from your knowledge, drawn from an inspection of the entries in the field notes, or from a hand in pencil marks, set opposite some of the entries by your father?

A. I know it, because I helped to take the check lines myself. 66 Q. What assistance did you derive from said pencil marks? A. My attention was directed to the minutes by them, and it saved me time in looking over.

67 Q. Could you have found all the places you have mentioned where check lines are noted, without this assistance ?

A. I could.

68 Q. (By the committee.) Do you Do you know any other thing material to the State, or to either of the memorialists, if yea, declare the same?

A. I do not know that I do.