Even after pawing over this rule here for, as they say, 4 years, they stuck this efficient foghorn in there.

Senator REED. I did not point that out, captain. Somebody else pointed that out.

Captain SMITH. I pointed that out to them yesterday. I do not know why they put that in there. One of them tried to say it was a misprint. It looks to me as though the sponsors of the bill did not read it. I don't know.

This other is on page 13, line 17.

There is nothing wrong with that signal. That is the signal we have used for years. The sponsors do not want that signal changed. But below there, in section (b), line 22, on page 13, where now we blow one long whistle for a boat running light, I would just like to point out that international rules for a boat running light in fog are that he blows one long blast, just like our present rule, with a 2-minute interval.

On inland rules, a boat running light, that is, a boat without a tow, blows one long blast, with intervals of one minute, which is exactly the way the western river rules are today.

Now, why do they want to change that rule and still cause more confusion? Why do they want a boat that has only been blowing one whistle for years, that was running light on the western rivers, and where that would be understood by even a pilot coming off of inland waters, or on ocean-going pilot-why do they want to change that, after making a plea for uniformity? They want to change that and make it two shorts and a long.

Well, now, if you are on a steamboat, and you start in to blow a whistle, you cannot get a short blast first. You have got to blow a fairly good blast of a steam whistle to get your whistle warmed up to get it going.

Of all the signals that are blown for all the landings, or your locks, in the entire system there is not one whistle that starts off with a short whistle. Every one of them always starts off with a long blast, to clear your whistle up, so that it can be distinctly heard. And why they want then, to change that, where you are going to blow two blasts, and then you are going to blow three blasts, but the last one is longer, I don't know.

As Captain Hottell pointed out, when you get up where you have high hills on each side, that can be very confusing. Oftentimes you hear boats blowing fog whistles. And you are not certain whether that boat is ahead of or behind you, on a crooked river, where you have high hills alongside of you.

Don't forget that you are running in fog, and you are supposed to be running slow, and if you hear another approaching steamer, you are supposed to slow down even more if conditions warrant. And if you hear that one blast in foggy weather, there would be no wind, and you could hear it for a great distance. You would hear that one blast enough times that there would be no possible chance of mistaking it for a passing signal.

Because even though you have a long tow, and this other man with a light boat does not have any tow. He is not allowed to blow a passing signal until he can see the other boat.

Up on the Great Lakes you can blow a passing signal without seeing the other fellow. But not on the western rivers. There is no chance

of mistaking that for any other whistle, because it is against the law to blow that whistle until you can see the other boat.

Senator REED. Did you appear before the House committee handling this bill?

Captain SMITH. No, sir.

Senator REED. Mr. Griffith, did your people appear before the House committee?

Captain SMITH. Mr. Griffith is not here now.

Captain HOTTELL. May I explain, sir?

We were not notified when the bill came up. We thought there was something funny. Not one pilot in Pittsburgh was notified about the House bill.

Captain SMITH. I would also like to point out that at the hearings Captain Farwell mentioned in St. Louis, there were two men from Pittsburgh there. One man at one time was a pilot. The other man had never done anything but steamboat operations from behind a desk. He does not know anything at all about the pilot rules.

They had a meeting at New Orleans. There was only one person from Pittsburgh there. None of the pilots were notified about it.

In the first place, the Pittsburgh pilots could not have gone down there. It was during the war. We were too busy.

But anyway, there was only one man from Pittsburgh who attended that meeting in New Orleans. He is not a pilot. He has never been a pilot.

And as to these rules that they try to say we are unanimous on, the answer is that the people who were there were not pilots at all. There weren't any to oppose it.

I know if my boss were there, he could not have opposed it, because he doesn't know anything about these problems. But they have put that

over.

I attended a meeting in Cincinnati. It just so happened that at that time two or three pilots could get to Cincinnati. That is the only place that they had any opposition. But I would also like to point out to you that some of those who voted against us there were not pilots. They don't know anything about it. But they were in the majority.

Steamboat operators and those kinds of people can get away from their jobs and attend these meetings. Steamboat pilots can't always get away from their jobs. We can't turn our jobs over to some clerk or secretary for a couple of days while we run down to New Orleans or St. Louis, or Cincinnati. We just can't do it. And when they put this bill over in the House, they did not have one bit of opposition. Nobody knew that it was coming up.

And I might also point out that they put that in in just the closing days of the session, on July 7, when it was getting pretty hot in Washington, and everybody wanted to go home.

I had written letters to my Representative and asked him to notify us, because we wanted to appear. But they put that over while our backs were turned. We did not have a chance to protest it.

And finally, last week, we got a copy of this. It was last Wednesday. That was the first that I saw of it.

Senator REED. Well, of course, Captain, it has been available since it was passed. This House bill has been available all the time.

Captain SMITH. That is true. It probably has been available. But do you know, even the Coast Guard office in Pittsburgh did not have a copy of this bill last week. I went in to talk to the lieutenant commander in charge there, and I had to pull this bill out of my pocket. The Coast Guard in Pittsburgh did not have a copy of that bill in their office.

Senator REED. Again, I must say that it was available for distribution. I do not know about your organization, or what steps you have to keep yourselves informed as to proposed legislation and the progress of it.

But if there is one thing we do here, it is to make these bills readily available to everybody that wants them.

Now, we do not know who wants them until they ask us.

Mr. THOMPSON. Senator, if you will pardon the interruption, I would like to call the committee's attention to the fact that this bill was introduced in the House on May 6, 1947.

Captain SMITH. That may be true, Mr. Thompson, but also I would like to point out that nobody in Pittsburgh knew that this was coming up. But it says on the last page here, that it was passed on July 7. Is it not the case very often that a bill is introduced and does not come up for a long time?

Senator MYERS. I think that happens too frequently.

Captain SMITH. I think you are right. That is all.

Senator MYERS. Of course, you and the previous witness are speaking for all of the pilots in this association, I surmise?

Captain SMITH. We are speaking for the pilots in the Pittsburgh district.

Senator MYERS. Now, how do the pilots feel, if you know, in other areas of the country? I mean the active pilots, like yourself and the previous witness.

Captain SMITH. I have never met one pilot that was in favor of all these changes; not one until I came to Washington here.

Senator MYERS. Well, have you discussed this legislation since it came to your attention with pilots in other areas of the country, outside of the Pittsburgh area?

Captain SMITH. No, sir; I have not had the opportunity to do that. I do not boat outside of the Pittsburgh area.

Senator MYERS. I understand that. But I thought for the benefit of the committee and the information of the committee, you might be able to enlighten us as to how pilots may feel outside of the Pittsburgh area. And I was just wondering whether or not the objections you make are objections that only apply to the pilots in the Pittsburgh area, or whether those objections might also be shared by pilots in other areas of the country.

Captain SMITH. Those objections are shared. Captain Hottell, here, who is a polot from Pittsburgh clear on into New Orleans, has talked with many pilots. He works as a contract trip pilot, which means he does not have any regularly assigned boat. They work by the mile. And that means that he has a chance to get around among a lot of boats and talk to a lot of different pilots and captains. And, as he says in his statement, he does not know who wants these changes. It certainly is not the active pilots.

Senator MYERS. That is all, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you.

Mr. THOMPSON. Senator Reed, we have Captain Young here, of the Pittsburgh district, who I think can give the committee some information on this subject.

STATEMENT OF CAPT. CHARLES YOUNG, MASTERS, MATES, AND PILOTS OF AMERICA, LOCAL NO. 25, PITTSBURGH, PA.

Captain YOUNG. My name is Charles Young, and I am master and pilot on the Ohio, Mississippi, and Kanawha Rivers.

Senator REED. And the Monongahela?

Captain YOUNG. No; just a short portion of the Monongahela. But I do go to Pittsburgh. I belong to the same association that Captain Hottell and Captain Smith belong to. I also belong to another pilot's association.

I am in favor of the three things that they are opposed to. The main thing is the three whistles. I approve of that heartily. I think it is a safety measure.

As Captain Clark says, there are several situations that could be shown, but it would take too much time.

Senator REED. You would agree with Captain Farwell, then?
Captain YOUNG. Yes, sir.

Senator REED. And you accept his statement as he made it for the record?

Captain YOUNG. That is right; with the changes he indicated, to strike out the 15 feet on the lights and just make it "higher."

Senator MYERS. What reply would you make to the objections which were just voiced by the two previous witnesses, to (b) and (c) of rule No. 24, appearing on page 21 of the bill, the second line on page 21?

Captain YOUNG. That is 600 yards from the bend? Well, I think there should be three distinct blasts.

Senator MYERS. I mean, do you have an answer or a reply to the objections that the three previous witnesses made?

Captain YOUNG. Well, they say that there should be the one. I gather you cannot blow to pass a boat until you see it. But there could be two boats below this point passing each other, that you couldn't see, and you might hear one whistle, one other whistle, and you might think that he is blowing to come around the point. If he would blow three whistles, you would know that it couldn't be a passing whistle or to come around the point. You would know there were others, other boats, down there.

That is all.

Senator MYERS. And what about subsection (c)?

Captain YOUNG. Moving from the dock?

Senator MYERS. Yes.

Captain YOUNG. Well, when the vessel is moving from the dock, there are times when you will be going down the river with a tow, and a boat would be backing out from the dock.

Well, if he was on the starboard side, he would blow one whistle backing out. You might take it that he wanted to take the starboard side of you. But it is just a back-out whistle. Where he blows three whistles, you then know what that is. The one whistle is always the starboard side.

Senator MYERS. And you are a member of the same association as the two previous witnesses?

Captain YOUNG. I am.

Senator MYERS. You are an active pilot, I surmise?
Captain YOUNG. I am an active pilot.

Senator MYERS. The same as they are active pilots?

Captain YOUNG. I started piloting at the age of 19, which was my first license, and I was a master at 21. I have been active since then. Senator MYERS. The witnesses indicated that some of those who were advocating these changes were merely desk pilots. But you do not come within that category.

Captain YOUNG. I have been a pilot in the past 12 years, steady

time.

Senator MYERS. Do you know whether there are any other members of your association who share your views?

Captain YOUNG. Oh, yes. I know that practically all of the line that I work with, which consists of, I would say, around 40 pilots, feel that way. And the way I can see it now, there are about 40 pilots against this, and about 600 for it.

Senator MYERS. Well, those two witnesses were introduced by the secretary and business representative of this local.

Captain YOUNG. I belong to that local.

Senator MYERS. And are they speaking for all of the pilots?

Captain YOUNG. Oh, no; just the Pittsburgh district. I think they stated that. Not the association.

Senator MYERS. I know it is not the national association.

I am speaking of this Pittsburgh local.

Captain YOUNG. They are still not speaking for that.

Senator MYERS. You are a member of the Pittsburgh local?
Captain YOUNG. That is right. I am.

But

Senator MYERS. And would you say that most of the men in the Pittsburgh local share their views, or your views?

Captain YOUNG. Well, I suppose they have a majority at the Pittsburgh harbor, because that is in the Monongahela River, and I don't work up there. But we have a pretty good majority. We must have 100 pilots on the lower river that belong to harbor 25. There are about 40, I think, in the line in which I work. And then there are other barge lines, and I know some of those fellows approve of it-all that I have talked to.

Senator REED. Captain Farwell, would it be practicable or desirable to attempt to make a different use of signals in the Monongahela than in the other rivers?

Captain FARWELL. Well, now, I am going to return Mr. Smith's injunction and say that I couldn't countenance such a departure from uniformity in such a small area as he suggests. And I think, Senator, you will give me a minute here, I should call your attention to one thing, that you will be straight on the law, which has been misstated by Captain Smith.

if

He has only been there for 35 years, and apparently has not found time to find out what the law is.

I know I am a heel in saying this; and don't even have the advantage of coming from Pennsylvania.

Senator MYERS. Where are you from?